Forum:Etc. vs et al.

Index → The Panopticon → Etc. vs et al.

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If this thread's title doesn't specify it's spoilery, don't bring any up.

Proposal

Policy currently says,

"[It is sometimes] impossible to cite all the stories that could be used as sources for a particular statement: how many stories could back up the claim that "the Doctor's TARDIS was blue"? In such cases, use three or four sources, preferably from different mediums if available, followed by "etc.". It is preferable not to use "et al.", as the phrase refers, strictly speaking, to animate rather than inanimate subjects."Tardis:Citation

Unfortunately, this is bad advice!

"Etc." is short for the Latin et cetera, which Wikipedia translates roughly as "and the rest of such things". As countless grammar guides across the internet will advise, et cetera should be used only when the remainder of the list can easily be understood or is already known. Grammarly explains (emphasis mine),

"Correct: The children should bring paper, pencils, scissors, etc. (You can discern the category from the examples.)

Incorrect: The children should bring crayons, blankets, birth certificates, etc. (The class is not clear. Unless you previously state the connection between the items and the rest of the list is easily imaginable, you can’t use etc.)"[1]

I think those examples make it clear that our use of "etc." in parenthetical citations is incorrect in the vast, vast majority of cases. Here's one example from The Doctor:

Some events still provided painful reminders of his role in the Time War. (TV: The Rings of Akhaten, The Time of the Doctor, etc.)

Is the rest of the list "easily imaginable"? Using only the two items presented, can you extrapolate the rest? I can't, and I don't expect that most of our readers can, either. This is incorrect usage.

Thankfully, there's an easy alternative to fix the issue: "et al.", which means "others forming some group". Many grammar guides say that "et al." should only be used for lists of people, since this is common style, but there's actually no such restriction in the full Latin phrase, which can be either animate (et alii; et aliae) and inanimate (et alia). The important difference between et cetera and et alia is that the latter has no "easily imaginable" requirement. As Najawin once summarized,

""Et cetera" is closer to "and so on", but it's non trivial to figure out what the other sources in question are when you have a list, especially when the DWU is as varied as it is. "Et al" allows us to be clear that there are others involved but you might not be able to figure out what they are from context."Najawin

It's for this reason that, despite T:CITE specifically saying never to use "et al." in our citations, the wiki uses it much more than "etc."! For instance, on The Doctor "et al." is used 15 times whereas "etc." is used only 5 times. Rather than leaving our citation system an inconsistent hodge-podge, we should reverse T:CITE's recommendations and make "et al." the official standard across the wiki. – n8 (☎) 22:05, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

Discussion

I agree with this proposl. Cousin Ettolrahc ☎ 06:19, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

I, too, agree with this proposal, but does et. al incorporate etc.; i.e. can et. al be used in cases where the rest of the list is easily extrapolated from context? Aquanafrahudy 📢 🖊️ 07:20, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

I disagree with this proposal. I understand your reasoning about why "etc" is not the best fit, but I do not understand why you think et al. is the better alternative. We do not speak Latin, we speak English, and in English, et al. denotes lists of people. It seems misguided to replace one slightly wrong term with a somewhat more wrong term.

The etymology of a term or phrase isn't always the most relevant when these terms/phrases grow and evolve, take on new meanings or lose old ones.

Also, your example of the usage of etc/et al. on the Doctor is frankly meaningless. Although technically Tardis:Citation states that "etc" is correct, it has long been held that "et al." was correct, and there was a forum thread before the forums were kaput that was in near unanimous agreement that etc was better! It just so happens that a policy technically already agreed with the consensus, which wasn't known to us at the time. So of course our pages are going to have mixed usages, and counting them is ridiculous when I could go over there right now and change them all with a quick "ctrl + f". Not only using ourselves as a source seems to miss the point about accurate referencing, you reference something that is known to be muddled and easily editable by anyone. Someone could change etc/et al. to "Electric Boogaloo" but it doesn't suddenly mean that "Electric Boogaloo" is the correct term.

"Et al. comes from the Latin phrase meaning “and others.” It is usually styled with a period, but you will occasionally see et al as well.

Et al. typically stands in for two or more names, especially in bibliographical information."Merriam Webster

While "etc" may not necessarily be that helpful in when trying to list off a bunch of unrelated sources to a statement, stitching et al. on instead, in modern usage, implies that the sources are people. But in many other cases, etc is the correct term.

The Doctor's TARDIS was a time machine. (TV: An Unearthly Child ^[+]Loading...["An Unearthly Child (TV story)"], Rose ^[+]Loading...["Rose (TV story)"], etc.)

See what I mean?

EPSILON^🔎 |📯|📂|📦|📝

14:26, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

I think Epsilon's response here is somewhat misleading. By my count, Thread:254184 in User:SOTO/Forum Archive/The Panopticon IV has 3 against et al, 2 in favor (not counting Epsilon, who was at one point in favor and then moved on), and then 5 who didn't seem to comment on the topic or were more ambiguous as to where they stood. I believe we did lose some comments in that thread, (which happened near the UCP move) as I think both Nate and myself commented at one point. But that's what we can see. And it doesn't support the idea that people were massively against et al. See also Thread:129568 User:SOTO/Forum Archive/The Panopticon II which had no clear resolution. Tangerine brings up the idea that et al is primarily for people, but Czech thinks it's genuinely useful here because "There are some statements that are so wide-ranging that et al does make some sense to me", and the OP explicitly notes that this was held to be saying "and others", as per the original Latin, at the time.

I note as well that the word "typically" appears in Epsilon's quotation. Is this wiki particularly typical?

For those who are particularly finicky on this point, might I suggest that the other et al. also works as translation of what we want? It's just the right answer. Even if we don't use et alia specifically. Najawin ☎ 17:27, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

Wasn't meant to be misleading; I haven't read that forum thread in four-ish years.

I would say that this Wiki's needs for such a term are typical, as we're just trying to use it in in-text citations.

EPSILON^🔎 |📯|📂|📦|📝

17:39, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

I never meant to suggest you did! Misleading, not disingenuous. Since you referenced the thread only vaguely, not the specific thread location/name, it was my assumption you didn't go back and look for it. And, well, it was 3 years ago.

Our needs might be, but the wiki has long marched to the beat of our own drummer. So I don't think that approach is in itself particularly compelling. Regardless, I once again reiterate that et alibi is strictly correct, even if we're not fans of et alia. Najawin ☎ 18:58, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for bringing up et alibi, which explicitly refers to locations, a very tidy fit for our use case of "locations where this fact can be sourced"! – n8 (☎) 14:31, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

Does anyone have any further opinions on this? Bongo50 ☎ 17:11, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

I once again reiterate that et alibi is strictly correct, even if people don't like et alia. I'd be interested to know if Epsilon has any objection to using et al given this context. Najawin ☎ 20:00, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

I'm against misusing et al. to refer to stories given that it is used in reference to people, usually authors in bibliographies. Jack "BtR" Saxon ☎ 20:37, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

Ngl, "et alibi/alia" seems obtuse and pedantic. It mat be technically correct, but how many casual readers — or editors for that matter — actually know it exists? I certainly never heard of it before this thread, nor have I since in any other situation. And I read a lot. My preference goes "etc" -> "et alibi/alia" -> "et al".

"Etc" may not be quite precise enough, but it communicates a general idea that everyone understands.

EPSILON^🔎 |📯|📂|📦|📝

21:52, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

Epsilon, maybe Najawin and I haven't been sufficiently clear: no one is suggesting that we type out et alibi! The suggestion is that we would type et al – which surely you've seen many times, both on the wiki and off it – with the understanding that it stands for et alibi. Which it validly does.

In lists of places, et alibi may be used, which is also abbreviated et al.; et alibi means "and elsewhere".Wikipedia

Sure, maybe it's obtuse and pedantic. Unfortunately, Tardis:Citation forced us into the obtusity and pedantry game years ago by proscribing et al in the first place. If we're going to be obtuse and pedantic either way, we'd might as well bother to be correct.

Jack, to be clear, unless you have new arguments against the analysis presented in the OP and by Najawin in the discussion section, it's etc, not et al, which is being misused in our citations. – NateBumber (☎) 22:49, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

No, that's even more unintuitive. "We should use 'et al', but not in its traditional meaning but as an abbreviation for 'et alibi'." To 99.9% of readers, they will not understand that nuance, and will think it means the traditional meaning. It's like saying "I'm waving a 'gun' in your face, which is actually short for a 'gunnysack'." Most people won't understand the differences!

EPSILON^🔎 |📯|📂|📦|📝

22:57, 17 December 2023 (UTC)