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The faces in River's diary have to be the past incarnations of the Doctor. The 8th Doctor said that Timelords have 13 lives, and that he was up to 8 (obviously). If we are at the 11th Doctor, we don't have too many more reincarnations to go :-(
0p3nsrc 20:41, February 22, 2011 (UTC)M
Pictures of the doctor
I don't understand this part at all, and it really shouldn't be in the artcle:
- It is likely that she only has pictures of the Doctor's incarnations from the Eleventh Doctor onwards, erroneously thinking that she has all of his faces, as she has not been seen with any Doctor before the Tenth Doctor. Even then it was her only time meeting the Tenth Doctor and she died shortly after meeting him, leaving her no time to sketch his face into her diary. She may not even be aware that the first nine incarnations ever existed.
First of all, this is pure speculation, so it really doesn't belong in the article. But more importantly, it's just completely erroneous speculation.
When River first meets the Tenth Doctor in the library, she clearly recognizes him and knows who he is. So she must have a picture of the Tenth Doctor.
Also, I have no idea why whoever wrote this is assuming that she sketches the Doctor's face into her diary and that's how she has pictures of him. I mean... there are an infinate number of ways that she could have obtained pictures of him... just think about it for more than a second. 68.33.15.127 14:28, March 30, 2011 (UTC)
Odd in did. I think she even says her diary is of all the time she spent with the doctor in 'various incarnations'.
Plus the doctor has a machine that can make photogaphs of people from their DNA, thus he obviously (as they were wife and husband) did that. Speculation, however, is the only way at the moment as Moffat hasn't written the river song ending yet. (well beginning as it started with the end) TheArtistBox 12:00, April 22, 2011 (UTC)
Stone Dalek
How can we be sure that River actually killed the Stone Dalek??
Firstly, although we see the stand off, with River threatening the dalek who asks for mercy, we never see or hear her shooting it. Likewise, although River states that it died, we have no proof of this.
River is a mysterious character, someone who would make a DALEK ask for MERCY!!! I do not believe we should take anything for granted and just assume that she killed it and she is telling the truth.
Geek Mythology 11:57, April 22, 2011 (UTC)
The Impossible Astronaut
Where does the events of The Impossible Astronaut fit in for her? DuduDoctor 21:06, April 23, 2011 (UTC)
- Obviously it takes place before Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead. She's wearing a vortex manipulator, so it must be after The Pandorica Opens/The Big Bang. However, by the time of The Time of Angels/Flesh and Stone she no longer has the manipulator. Thus, from the sound of it, the order (so far) for her is:
--Witoki 04:22, April 24, 2011 (UTC)
In the page, the Impossible Astronut is before The Pandorica Opens/The Big Bang, even though in The Big Bang, River calls Rory the Roman Centurian, but she would have learned his name in The Impossible Astronaut! Someone has to change it. - BillyWilliam3rd 15: 11, April 24, 2011 (UTC)
Lets stick the TIA after TBB and between ToA for the moment as it is the most accurate placement we can have for the story at the moment. Hopefully in next weeks episode we get a better placement in relation to River's timeline. --Revan\Talk 15:05, April 24, 2011 (UTC)
She didn't seem to know Rory at all in The Pandorica Opens/The Big Bang, but goes as far as having a very personal conversation with him in The Impossible Astronaut, and some more interation in Day of the Moon. Amy and Rory also talked about the events of The Big Bang in their conversation with her as if she had already done it, and she didn't seem confusedin the least, she seemed to know what Amy was saying. She is seen to have the Vortex Manipulator, too. The comment on how River was "doing it again" in Stormcage might be a hint back to her escape in the series 5 finale. Dorium should be appearing in Day of the Moon (having been seen in the CBBC trailer for series 6 and seen filming for it), so that should make things more clearer, like him referring to her black mailing him or something. 90.202.150.156 16:40, April 24, 2011 (UTC)
The vortex manipulator can't be used as evidence of when in her timeline this takes place, as she could have had another vortex manipulator in the past, lost it, and obtained a new one from Dorium in The Pandorica Opens. In her conversation with Amy and Rory, River didn't say anything about The Pandorica Opens or The Big Bang, so it is possible that she just chose to ignore Amy and Rory talking about something that hadn't happened to her yet, to avoid spoilers. Hopefully, Day of the Moon will provide a better hint as to where in her timeline this takes place.Icecreamdif 17:32, April 24, 2011 (UTC)
I don't think Series 5 can really be used as proof anymore either to be honest. Despite the fact that the Doctor, Amy, Rory and River seem to remember the Series's events, the Big Bang 2 changed the timeline, making Series 5 an alternate timeline. One case in point: Amy has her parents now, and Rory didn't die. Therefore River may have met Amy and Rory another time we haven't seen, or the Doctor mentioned them to her in her past. In "The Big Bang", River says the Doctor has yet to find out who she is the next time they meet, so she seems to know what's coming in his future. Additionally, River refers to meeting the Doctor in reverse order during her conversation in "The Impossible Astronaut", which seems a bit to specific to contradict for now. Hopefully, once "Day of the Moon" comes out things will be clarified.--Samoth 18:11, April 24, 2011 (UTC)
I think that The Impossible Astronaut / Day of the Moon both come before The Pandorica Opens / The Big Bang, since so far every appearance by River to the viewers and the Doctor has been earlier in her personal timeline, and she says as much to Rory about her past being his future and his past being her future, and that when he first met her he knew everything about her but with every meeting afterwards he knew less and less (and that once she gets to the point where he doesn't know her at all, she will die, which ends up being a fact). She also says at the end of Series 5 that the next time they meet that "everything changes" and "I'm so sorry", which implies to me that she's already been through all the events of Series 6. As for having a vortex manipulator, it doesn't mean that this takes place after the Pandorica... she definitely wouldn't have it and would have to get a replacement once she's imprisoned again, after escaping to head to Stonehenge.207.179.173.48 18:48, April 24, 2011 (UTC)
Series 5 did NOT take place in an alternate timeline. By saying that, you say the entire show prior to series 6 takes place in another world. What a loaf of rubbish, totally contraditing the Doctor's dialouge about restoring the universe and what Moffat said regarding the story. The River seen in Flesh and Stone refers to the events of th series 5 finale, and recognises the crack by the look on her face. Yet it hasn't happened yet for the Doctor. If you had even bothered paying attention, it was said that flying the Pandorica into the explosion, theywould bringthe unierse back to exactly how it was before it was destroyed, which was cracked. But the cracks closed, not ceased to exist. Reference was made to how the cracks would close in Venice - because of the Doctor's actions, which explains why Starship UK and the War Rooms weren't erased - because the cracks there closed.
You contradict the show, as characters from series 5 are reappearing in sries 6, including Craig and Sophie. How's that possible if series 5 was an alternate timeline?
River doesn't ALWAYS meet the Doctor in reverse order, it's just that most of it goes in a basic form of reverse. You clearly missed the part where River met a Doctor who was in sync with her at the begining of the episode, or how she mentioned that before going to the Library, her last adventure was when he used the Future Sonic, and we haven't even seen the Doctor get that far yet. So, no, not all of it is in reverse, like how the Doctor at the begining had already done Easter Island, and so had she. Delton Menace 00:45, April 25, 2011 (UTC)
Something happens at the end of Day of the Moon, that in my opinion puts this before The Pandorica Opens/The Big Bang - if it was after something would have happened in those episodes - you'll understand when you see it - also she pretty much confirms it in The Imposible astronaught that they're are traveling in oposite directions - as for not knowing Rory - well he was erased from time, never exisisted so that can be atributed to her not knowing him, either that or she is a great actress and clever when it comes to hiding spoilers...91.108.5.196 12:46, April 25, 2011 (UTC)
River stated explicitly that her and the Doctor were meeting in reverse. I think we should use that for her timeline. -- Rest In Peace Sarah Jane \ Talk to me! 15:01, April 25, 2011 (UTC)
Leave the timeline as it is and wait for part two to shed some light on it.----Skittles the hog--Talk 15:22, April 25, 2011 (UTC)
As a "PS" to my above, River told the Doctor "that's when everything changes" at the end of The Big Bang, and things changed pretty drastically with the Doctor getting. Part 2 will likely shed more light on things, but I think given what she told Rory and and the Doctor, that the exact reverse order is the correct one. Any other thoughts? -- Rest In Peace Sarah Jane \ Talk to me! 15:44, April 25, 2011 (UTC)
I would say that the order is likely to be:
- The Pandorica Opens
- The Big Bang
- The Impossible Astronaut
- Day of the Moon
- The Time of Angels
- Flesh and Stone
- Silence in the Library
- Forest of the Dead
We know TPO happens before ToA (from her point of view) because River says as much.
As she doesn't know who Rory is in TPO we have to assume the TIA comes after that from her point of view as she clearly knows who he is (there would be no reason for her to pretend not to know him, its not like she hides her time-travling nature and fore-knowledge).
The only other peice of evidence of where the timeline occured in reguards to ToA is the Vortex Manipilator. It's not hard evidence (it could be a different one) but its the only evidence we have. So until the better evidence is provided I think we will have to assume that TIA occures before ToA where she had returned to prision and presumably had her Vortex Manipulator confiscated.
We know they meet in a general (but imperfect) reverse order because of the diaries. If there were major mix-ups in their timelines they would have to match up every single event in their diaries rather than just "have we dont this yet". So while we can generalise and use it as a trend, we cannot use it to make a specific order.
As for her being in prision in the 52ndC in TPO and the 51st in ToA (in her personal future but the actual past) there are two explanations:
1) She was recaptured in the 51stC and taken to back prision. As the Time Agency exists during this period it is possible the personal timelines (and time travel) are factored in when serving a sentence. I find it less likely that she would have turned herself in at a time before she was originally in prision (possibly even before she had commited the crime), although I guess it's possible.
2) It was a mistake. When working out the dates for TPO someone involved in the episode read "51st Cenutry" from ToA and made up a date begining with "51??" (5145 as it turned out); which I think is an easy enough mistake/oversight to make. Looq 21:43, April 25, 2011 (UTC)
I'm sorry, did people not listen to what she had to say? "trouble is, it's all back to front, my past is his future, We're travelling in oposite directions. Every time we meet, I know him more, he knows me less." surely this is confirmation that the orders are reverse.
Also in The Pandorica Opens - Amy says to River "The last time we saw you, you said we'd see you again when the Pandorica opens" or something like that - the way you have it, sh'e be telling them in The Impossible Astronaut/Day of the Moon! 91.108.5.196 23:06, April 25, 2011 (UTC)
The vortex manipulator is not evidence. What She explicitly says onscreen is. -- Rest In Peace Sarah Jane \ Talk to me! 13:08, April 26, 2011 (UTC)
The vortex manipulator isn't evidence. She states that they are going in the wrong direction, but she hasn't had all the events happen to her yet. Also, according to Moffat's twitter, this is set before The Big Bang for River, and that she pretended not to know him in those two episodes. --The Thirteenth Doctor 13:36, April 26, 2011 (UTC)
At the point River refers to Rory as the 'Roman Centurion' in TPO/TBB, Rory had been erased from history... Therefore, you could conclude that River would not know who Rory was, regardless of whether she met him 'earlier' in TIA/DOTM. Thus, TIA/DOTM happens before TPO/TBB.
Another point is that River's timeline runs 'backwards' to the Doctor's, meaning she could have met Amy and Rory in her past/Doctor's future. Eladkse 15:20, April 26, 2011 (UTC)
There you go Steven Moffat the writer has even confirmed that River knew Rory and she was lying - thats pretty much confirmation that you have the order wrong! see his twitter! https://twitter.com/#!/steven_moffat 91.108.5.196 17:22, April 26, 2011 (UTC)
In light of this tweet (which I had missed a couple of comments back), I wish to make a shocking conclution: Moffat, although being the head writer, is wrong. It is just not plausable... and he probably made it up on the spot. At least what I said above is plausable. Eladkse 17:43, April 26, 2011 (UTC)
Moffat was agrreing with you! the origional question was "why does River know Rory now when she didn't know him in the Big Bang? Isn't that episode in her future?" he replied "She DOES know him, she pretends not to. Spoilers." which is what isaid further up - The fact of the matter is this though - Moffat has confirmed now that TIO/DOTM happens before TPO/TBB - the order in the article needs to be changed... it seems people dont actually listen to what is said and would rather have visual confirmation and hence why they are clinging onto a votrex manipulator 91.108.5.196 18:19, April 26, 2011 (UTC)
Calm down... I'm not saying that an answers hasn't been 'provided' - I'm just suggesting a much more plausable one: River did not know Rory because at that point, Rory didn't exist. Eladkse 18:32, April 26, 2011 (UTC)
I see many apologies, my mistake - it may not be the answer you want but one has been provided. By the way i totally aggree with what you are saying about the deleting from existance - i suggested it further up :D 91.108.5.196 19:16, April 26, 2011 (UTC)
Did you? My apologies as well then - I found it hard to read this discussion due to the wiki's font choice and lack of indenting, meaning I missed a couple of the comments as I tried to read it. Eladkse 20:21, April 26, 2011 (UTC)
Well it doesn't matter now anyway - the correct order has been placed 91.108.5.196 19:24, April 26, 2011 (UTC)
I think the Kiss proves that River experiences 1969 in the USA before the Big Bang. Realising that the doctor had not kissed her before, she now knows not to kiss him in her future, Ie, series 5. Geek Mythology 18:41, April 30, 2011 (UTC)
Easiest proof that every instance is in reverse order:
- end of Day of the Moon:
- Eleventh Doctor: See you next time, call me!
- start of The Pandorica Opens:
- Eleventh Doctor: You graffitied the oldest cliff face in the universe.
- River Song: You wouldn't answer your phone.
Simple enough, I think. Witoki 22:41, April 30, 2011 (UTC)
I think its fair enough to say that the current order it reversed, but it might not always be the case for two simple reasons:
1) The Diaries wouldn't work. If the order was in perfect reverse compared to the other, there would be no point in the diaries whatsoever, because there would be no events in the Doctor's that would be in River's at the same time except for the events that they just experienced together (and even then only before they parted ways). For an event to be in both their pasts then they must meet out of (reverse) order some of the time. Although the order is clearly generally reversed.
2) We have know of two specific out of order events:
A) River has not been given the Doctor's Sonic Screwdriver from our perspective yet; therefore a Doctor from our future must contact a River from our past (i.e. between Silence in the Library and The Time of Angels). I believe it was the "picnic as asgard" where their timelines seemed to be in sync (his last meeting with her, and her second to last meeting with him).
B) The FutureDoc10 from the begining of the Impossible Astronaut, who seemed to be "in-sync" with the River of that time (unlike the PresentDoc10 to whom River is still a fairly new companion). Looq 02:41, May 1, 2011 (UTC)
I think you mean 11, not 10, unless you refer to the First Doctor as Doc 0--86.135.146.25 10:08, May 1, 2011 (UTC)
We need to wait to see how the Doctor's death resolves/unresolves/whatever, but River does say that they went to see the opera just before Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead when she presumably receives the screwdriver. This could very easily be right before the Doctor sends the geo letters. Witoki 02:43, May 1, 2011 (UTC)
While we should wait some more to get 100% verification of the timeline, River's last scene in Day of the Moon does indicate something. She kisses the Doctor, and it's his first kiss from his point of view. River says it's her last then, as the next time she'll meet him he'll know her even less. In fact, in the Pandorcia Opens/Big Bang, she doesn't even try to kiss him. Thus the latter two wouldn't have happened to River before the Day of the Moon because River would have resigned herself to the fact that the Doctor doesn't know her enough to want to kiss her. --Samoth 15:46, May 1, 2011 (UTC)
Although I agree that the doctor must visit her at some point before the library to give her the sonic screwdriver, the four stories we have seen SO FAR all seem to take place in the reverse order that they have been broadcast, ie, America 2011/1969, then Pandorica, Byzantium, and finally Library. Geek Mythology 17:21, May 1, 2011 (UTC)
- Well, we already know they can't meet purely in reverse order (even if that's the general pattern) because the Doctor's future self met Impossible Planet River before his present self did. I'm not convinced that will be their last kiss from her perspective, either. Her second-to-last meeting with the Doctor (from her perspective) when he has a big cry about her impending death doesn't seem like it would be particularly platonic. Unless Ten did it offscreen, I suppose. 95.150.108.95 15:54, May 2, 2011 (UTC)
- He may have all ready had that meeting with her - we don't actually know that he didnt go see River before regenerating from the 10th to 11th - the pinc may have been apart of the 10ths goodbye to everyoneLagunaVII 18:01, May 3, 2011 (UTC)
Punctuation
The punctuation in this article violates the most basic grammar rules. I have tried changing it, but an admin keeps reverting the edits and I do not want him to ban me for trying to improve the article. Here is a list of rules for quotation marks. Can somebody please go through and fix this article? -- Rest In Peace Sarah Jane \ Talk to me! 20:27, April 28, 2011 (UTC)
Theory On River Song's Origins
Following on from Day Of The Dead I think River is the child in the spacesuit, as well as Amy's child... now the four questions are:
1) Is River a Time Lord?
2) Does the adult River know Amy is her mum?
3) Is the Doctor the father?
4) Why did the scanner in the TARDIS go nuts
First of all, to understand this, you have to remember that apparently a TARDIS is 'grown' not made ("The Impossible Planet") this implies there is an element of biology or DNA within a TARDIS)
Now, if you remember, the Doctor and Amy were joking about the baby having a 'time head' due to spending so much time in the TARDIS, well, i believe that whilst they were joking, the TARDIS travel has affected Amy's baby... think of how looking into the TARDIS affected Rose.
Also, we've never seen a pregnant woman in the TARDIS for a prolonged period (I dont think) so we dont know the affects. This is what has caused the seeming regeneration ability of the space-child, not the Doctor being the father (answering question 3). This also means River isnt a Time Lord... rather a human baby with 'TARDIS DNA' or something like that... seems possible as the TARDIS is said to be grown, not built, implying elements of it are living (answering question 1). This mix in DNA may be what confused the scanner, it could have been searching for a human baby in Amy, however River has elements of 'TARDIS' aswell as human, which caused it to trip out (answering question 4). Now, we know the child know about Amy as she has a picture of her, but River seemingly doesn't. The only reason i can believe right now is that as a child she only had that picture and lost it when she left the orphanage, so she may have forgot what Amy looks like. That or some event that is to be revealed in Rivers life (answering question 2). Two other things to think about. River, although seemingly human appears to be able to travel through time... yet unlike Doctor or even Captain Jack, she's never shown with any time travelling technology, her 'TARDIS DNA' may be the reason for her ability to time travel, it may also be why she is able to drive the TARDIS so well. Finally, think about the first episode we see River, "Silence In The Library", River is wearing something very similar to a Spacesuit, knowing Steven Moffats penchant for continuity between episodes could be why.
86.2.79.135 21:55, May 3, 2011 (UTC)Sambo