Howling:Baby language: Difference between revisions

Howling:Baby language (view source)

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 ...[[User:Icecreamdif|Icecreamdif]] 20:40, September 27, 2011 (UTC)
-<span lang="EN" style="mso-ansi-language: EN">I don't think that the Doctor is faking it.  I won't rule out the possibility that he is faking (rule #1: The Doctor lies.), but i don't see any reason to lie in this instance.  For the sake of Argument lets divide "intelligence" in this instance into categories: Knowledge gained, IQ (problem solving ability), and emotional maturity.
+<span lang="EN" style="mso-ansi-language: EN">I don't think that the Doctor is faking it. I won't rule out the possibility that he is faking (rule #1: The Doctor lies.), but i don't see any reason to lie in this instance. For the sake of Argument lets divide "intelligence" in this instance into categories: Knowledge gained, IQ (problem solving ability), and emotional maturity.
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-<span lang="EN" style="mso-ansi-language: EN">I think Icecreamdif's main issue is with the knowledge gained.  The Doctor's has only spoken with babies that are no longer newborns (at least that is the way it seemed to me).  That would give the babies time to absorb some of the knowledge that Icecreamdif had issue with.  In the Lodger it is implied that Craig and Sophie watch a lot of television ("pizza-booze-telly" as a regular occurrence) and a large stack of DVD's can be seen on a bookcase so Alfie could have pieced together Stormagedon from something he saw/heard while his parents watched.  I also cannot imagine Amy describing the Doctor to Melody (if she had the opportunity to) without describing his tie as rubbish.  Even if Melody was truly newborn (only hours old) she is human+timelord so she may have had consciousness even in the womb.
+<span lang="EN" style="mso-ansi-language: EN">I think Icecreamdif's main issue is with the knowledge gained. The Doctor's has only spoken with babies that are no longer newborns (at least that is the way it seemed to me). That would give the babies time to absorb some of the knowledge that Icecreamdif had issue with. In the Lodger it is implied that Craig and Sophie watch a lot of television ("pizza-booze-telly" as a regular occurrence) and a large stack of DVD's can be seen on a bookcase so Alfie could have pieced together Stormagedon from something he saw/heard while his parents watched. I also cannot imagine Amy describing the Doctor to Melody (if she had the opportunity to) without describing his tie as rubbish. Even if Melody was truly newborn (only hours old) she is human+timelord so she may have had consciousness even in the womb.
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-<span lang="EN" style="mso-ansi-language: EN">As for IQ, I think this has more to due with ones own brainpower and less to due with what they have learned.  If this is true, a baby should still have a large percentage of the problem solving ability that his/her older self would have.  For example: I feel solving an algebra equation and trying to get a toy out of a box require the same amount of problem solving, one just requires more knowledge than the other.
+<span lang="EN" style="mso-ansi-language: EN">As for IQ, I think this has more to due with ones own brainpower and less to due with what they have learned. If this is true, a baby should still have a large percentage of the problem solving ability that his/her older self would have. For example: I feel solving an algebra equation and trying to get a toy out of a box require the same amount of problem solving, one just requires more knowledge than the other.
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-<span lang="EN" style="mso-ansi-language: EN">As for emotional maturity, neither baby could be described as emotionally mature.  Both babies show that they think very highly of themselves and little for those around them (something I equate to emotional immaturity).  Melody called Amy "Giant Milk Thing" and Craig was "Not Mom" to Alfie.
+<span lang="EN" style="mso-ansi-language: EN">As for emotional maturity, neither baby could be described as emotionally mature. Both babies show that they think very highly of themselves and little for those around them (something I equate to emotional immaturity). Melody called Amy "Giant Milk Thing" and Craig was "Not Mom" to Alfie.
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-<span lang="EN" style="mso-ansi-language: EN">Now that said, if the Doctor is indeed communicating with them, he either is communicating psychically (is the Doctor psychic enough to do this without physical contact?), knows every language and does not need the TARDIS to translate for him (possible but I would think that everysingle baby speaks his/her own language till they lean the accepted language), or the TARDIS is translating baby for him (why not translate for the parents too?).<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">  </span>I think each of these have problems that could disprove the whole thing in the first place. [[User:MasterIII|MasterIII]] 23:56, September 27, 2011 (UTC)
+<span lang="EN" style="mso-ansi-language: EN">Now that said, if the Doctor is indeed communicating with them, he either is communicating psychically (is the Doctor psychic enough to do this without physical contact?), knows every language and does not need the TARDIS to translate for him (possible but I would think that everysingle baby speaks his/her own language till they lean the accepted language), or the TARDIS is translating baby for him (why not translate for the parents too?).<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>I think each of these have problems that could disprove the whole thing in the first place. [[User:MasterIII|MasterIII]] 23:56, September 27, 2011 (UTC)
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 The Doctor has no reason to lie, except that it is funnier to claim that he speaks baby. Amy (who is pretty good at telling when he's lying) didn't seem to buy it, but Craig seemed to believe him. I doubt that the Doctor can literally speak every language. Despite being 1103 at this point, he hasn't been to every planet in the universe (the show would get really boring if he had been), and he doesn't stay in most places for long enough to learn the language. I think when he claims to speak every language, he is really referring to the TARDIS' translation abilities. For example, when we hear him speaking to the Tritovore's in ''Planet of the Dead'', we are seeing it from Christina's point of view so we can see that he is actually speaking an alien language since she has nnever been in the TARDIS, but from his point of view he is speaking English or Gallifreyan or whatever he usually speaks. Since Baby is not an actual language, I doubt that the TARDIS could actually translate it. Yes, the TARDIS is telepathic, but I'm sure there have been plenty of instances in the show when someone is too shocked or scared to speak intelligebly, and the TARDIS doesn't translate them. Even if the babies are exposed to information, I doubt that they could understand much English. They might recognize words like mommy, or daddy, or food, but would Melody really have a clue what Amy was talking about when she said that his bow tie was rubbish. Amy may not have actually told Melody anything about the Doctor anyways; she seemed more interested in telling her about Rory. With the Stormageddon thing, one has to wonder why their would be a word in another language for that, and why Alfie would possibly prefer a name that he randomly made up while watching TV to the one that everyone calls him. The peasents reference also seems kind of ridiculous. If the Doctor really wanted to communicate with a baby, he would probably have to use either a mind meld or the head butting thing that he did to Craig(though head butting a baby might be a bad idea). Also, as you point out, Amy has been in the TARDIS plenty of times, so why wasn't she able to understand Melody. And why couldn't Ace have had a conversation with her mother in ''The Curse of Fenric''? It would really be completely within character for the Eleventh Doctor to pretend that he can speak to babies just because its funny.[[User:Icecreamdif|Icecreamdif]] 01:13, September 28, 2011 (UTC)
+Anyone who has dealt with preverbal children will tell you that they definitely have personalities and opinions, wants and needs, even if they are not capable of, say, discussing  the influence of Elizabethan playwrights on television sitcoms. They do recognize their mothers very early, their other caregivers a bit later, and cry differently for different issues even a few hours after birth. Even for adults, a lot of information is conveyed by body language, expresison, and even tone of voice -- notice how easily flame wars start online. Combine experience with infants and the telepathy that the Doctor is capable of, even a low-level empathy, and the Doctor is likely quite capable of understanding what a baby wants, whether it's the difference between wanting her diapers changed, being hungry or being sleepy, that there is something very odd around the Doctor's neck,  or that there is a "Big Milk Thing"  and everyone else. (''A Good Man Goes to War''). Likewise, the egocentrism of a preverbal child can be indicated in translation by a title like Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All. which is a pretty good translation of a small child who wants mummy, right now, not this other person who's around a lot, but is not mummy.[[User:Boblipton|Boblipton]] 03:25, September 28, 2011 (UTC)