Howling:Baby language
Please DO NOT add to this discussion.
Does The Doctor actually speak "Baby", or is he just trying to lighten up the situation with humor? Benuphoenix 10:27, September 27, 2011 (UTC)
Those are not mutually exclusive possibilities; it could be both. --89.242.69.48 10:43, September 27, 2011 (UTC)
He could be exaggerating a bit also, being there is no one spoken "baby language" it could just be he is he psychically communicating with them and claiming he is speaking baby out of humour. The Light6 11:10, September 27, 2011 (UTC)
Eh, he's probably faking it. The way he translates them makes it sound like they are somewhat more intelligent than they should be. The fact that Melody instantly seemed to know that wearing a bow tie was weird, or Alfie preferring Stormageddon for example. Actually, I don't think that anything that Alfie supposedly said would make sense for a baby to be thinking. Of course, he could be telepathically communicating with them, but he's probably just messing with Craig and Amy. After all, Melody isn't the first baby the Doctor's ever met, and he's never tried to speak to them before. Same goes for the shh thing. It probably isn't telepathic or anything-Alfie was just quiet when the Doctor did it and pretty much everyone else the Doctor used it on knew him and were just being quiet because he told them to be. Now, if the Doctor had used this trick to shut the Cybermen up, that would have been impressive.Icecreamdif 18:00, September 27, 2011 (UTC) The dr said it only works once so he could hae already used it on the CybeerMen at some off-screen time- Annoymus User
Icecreamdif: Shh! Boblipton 19:27, September 27, 2011 (UTC)
...Icecreamdif 20:40, September 27, 2011 (UTC)
I don't think that the Doctor is faking it. I won't rule out the possibility that he is faking (rule #1: The Doctor lies.), but i don't see any reason to lie in this instance. For the sake of Argument lets divide "intelligence" in this instance into categories: Knowledge gained, IQ (problem solving ability), and emotional maturity.
I think Icecreamdif's main issue is with the knowledge gained. The Doctor's has only spoken with babies that are no longer newborns (at least that is the way it seemed to me). That would give the babies time to absorb some of the knowledge that Icecreamdif had issue with. In the Lodger it is implied that Craig and Sophie watch a lot of television ("pizza-booze-telly" as a regular occurrence) and a large stack of DVD's can be seen on a bookcase so Alfie could have pieced together Stormagedon from something he saw/heard while his parents watched. I also cannot imagine Amy describing the Doctor to Melody (if she had the opportunity to) without describing his tie as rubbish. Even if Melody was truly newborn (only hours old) she is human+timelord so she may have had consciousness even in the womb.
As for IQ, I think this has more to due with ones own brainpower and less to due with what they have learned. If this is true, a baby should still have a large percentage of the problem solving ability that his/her older self would have. For example: I feel solving an algebra equation and trying to get a toy out of a box require the same amount of problem solving, one just requires more knowledge than the other.
As for emotional maturity, neither baby could be described as emotionally mature. Both babies show that they think very highly of themselves and little for those around them (something I equate to emotional immaturity). Melody called Amy "Giant Milk Thing" and Craig was "Not Mom" to Alfie.
Now that said, if the Doctor is indeed communicating with them, he either is communicating psychically (is the Doctor psychic enough to do this without physical contact?), knows every language and does not need the TARDIS to translate for him (possible but I would think that everysingle baby speaks his/her own language till they lean the accepted language), or the TARDIS is translating baby for him (why not translate for the parents too?). I think each of these have problems that could disprove the whole thing in the first place. MasterIII 23:56, September 27, 2011 (UTC)
The Doctor has no reason to lie, except that it is funnier to claim that he speaks baby. Amy (who is pretty good at telling when he's lying) didn't seem to buy it, but Craig seemed to believe him. I doubt that the Doctor can literally speak every language. Despite being 1103 at this point, he hasn't been to every planet in the universe (the show would get really boring if he had been), and he doesn't stay in most places for long enough to learn the language. I think when he claims to speak every language, he is really referring to the TARDIS' translation abilities. For example, when we hear him speaking to the Tritovore's in Planet of the Dead, we are seeing it from Christina's point of view so we can see that he is actually speaking an alien language since she has nnever been in the TARDIS, but from his point of view he is speaking English or Gallifreyan or whatever he usually speaks. Since Baby is not an actual language, I doubt that the TARDIS could actually translate it. Yes, the TARDIS is telepathic, but I'm sure there have been plenty of instances in the show when someone is too shocked or scared to speak intelligebly, and the TARDIS doesn't translate them. Even if the babies are exposed to information, I doubt that they could understand much English. They might recognize words like mommy, or daddy, or food, but would Melody really have a clue what Amy was talking about when she said that his bow tie was rubbish. Amy may not have actually told Melody anything about the Doctor anyways; she seemed more interested in telling her about Rory. With the Stormageddon thing, one has to wonder why their would be a word in another language for that, and why Alfie would possibly prefer a name that he randomly made up while watching TV to the one that everyone calls him. The peasents reference also seems kind of ridiculous. If the Doctor really wanted to communicate with a baby, he would probably have to use either a mind meld or the head butting thing that he did to Craig(though head butting a baby might be a bad idea). Also, as you point out, Amy has been in the TARDIS plenty of times, so why wasn't she able to understand Melody. And why couldn't Ace have had a conversation with her mother in The Curse of Fenric? It would really be completely within character for the Eleventh Doctor to pretend that he can speak to babies just because its funny.Icecreamdif 01:13, September 28, 2011 (UTC)
Anyone who has dealt with preverbal children will tell you that they definitely have personalities and opinions, wants and needs, even if they are not capable of, say, discussing the influence of Elizabethan playwrights on television sitcoms. They do recognize their mothers very early, their other caregivers a bit later, and cry differently for different issues even a few hours after birth. Even for adults, a lot of information is conveyed by body language, expresison, and even tone of voice -- notice how easily flame wars start online. Combine experience with infants and the telepathy that the Doctor is capable of, even a low-level empathy, and the Doctor is likely quite capable of understanding what a baby wants, whether it's the difference between wanting her diapers changed, being hungry or being sleepy, that there is something very odd around the Doctor's neck, or that there is a "Big Milk Thing" and everyone else. (A Good Man Goes to War). Likewise, the egocentrism of a preverbal child can be indicated in translation by a title like Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All. which is a pretty good translation of a small child who wants mummy, right now, not this other person who's around a lot, but is not mummy.Boblipton 03:25, September 28, 2011 (UTC)
That isn't usually how the Doctor's telepathy is depicted though. Usually, if he wants to read minds he has to make physical contact with them. Even if he could read baby's minds, I can see him being able to tell if the baby wants to be changed, wants food, or wants his old crib, but not really things like Stormageddon and peasants. Stormageddon Dark Lord of All would really suggest that the baby feels superior to others more than anything (which may be true), but while baby's may be aware of a lot of what's going on around them, I doubt that they can pick up names like Stormageddon from TV. Also, the Doctor's response to Melody seemed more like Melody insulted the Doctor's bow tie than asking him what it was. A baby may be curious as to what it is, though it isn't particularly strange compared to all the soldiers and creepy eyepatched women she's been exposed to, but I doubt she would say or think something along the lines of "That bow tie is hideously ugly and completely outdated." Melody's supposed comment about the Doctor's hair was also likely made up, so that he could avoid the subject off whose crib it was. And, if the Doctor can speak baby, it still leaves open the question of why he's never demonstrated this ability with any other baby character. For example, when he was trying to persuade baby Rose not to cause a universe ending paradox, he didn't act like she was responding to him at all. I'm not saying that it is impossible that the Doctor speaks baby, but it is pretty unlikely.Icecreamdif 06:03, September 28, 2011 (UTC)
This seems to bug you, Icecreamdif. Isn't the por old man allowed to have any fun? Boblipton 12:58, September 28, 2011 (UTC)
I just had lunch with a friend and we discussed this episode and this debate. She mentioned that her sister teaches her children sign language well before they are verbal. Not only could her older boy, now five, identify and point out ceiling fans before he could sit up, but he managed to outwit her before she could talk: he wanted to play, she told him not until he had finished eating, whereupon he signed that he was done eating. Boblipton 19:39, September 28, 2011 (UTC)
It doesn't bug me, I just don't believe the Doctor. The TARDIS translates languages, not just whatever somebody happens to be thinking, and babies obviously don't have languages. For the Doctor's own telepathy to work, he has to make physical contact with someone unless they too are telepathic. This, and the fact that nobody else who has been in the TARDIS seems to understand babies, and the fact that the Doctor has never demonstrated this ability before would seem to indicate that he is joking. It is a funny joke, especially with Craig who actually believed him, but it is still just a joke.Icecreamdif 19:46, September 28, 2011 (UTC)
Maybe all humans are telepathic as babies and we lose this ablility once we learn how to speak. This would allow the Doctor to communicate with babies without physical contact. 69.110.255.179 19:18, October 1, 2011 (UTC)
What about those who never learn to speak? --78.146.185.61 20:30, October 1, 2011 (UTC)
Do you mean those who can't speak themselves but can understand others or those who never learn a language?69.110.255.179 21:10, October 1, 2011 (UTC)
