Talk:Regeneration/Archive 1

	This page is an archive. Please do not make any edits here. Edit the active conversation only.

Difficult or Unusual Regenerations

In the Regenerative Difficulty section, "regerations" are mentioned. Is this referring to a partial regeneration"? 90.196.134.106 16:49, June 13, 2010 (UTC)K.Roche

No, that's someone misspelling regenerations. - I. Am. Excalibur-117-^{(talk • contribs)} 17:01, June 13, 2010 (UTC)

Tenth's Last Words

How is "I'm sorry; it's too late... I'm regenerating!" last words? Regardless of whether or not you consider an incomplete regeneration a regeneration, it still makes absolutely no sense to say they are last words when the it's still the tenth alive and kicking afterward...--203.168.176.42 17:47, July 15, 2010 (UTC)

Ninth Doctor's First Words

Weren't the ninth doctor's fist words simply "Run!" to Rose in Rose?

Yes his first words was "Run!" But in talking about regeneration the more fitting quote would be after the shop blew up and Rose invited The Doctor into her flat The Doctor is messing about in the living room while Rose is talking. He then looks in the mirror and says "Still could be worse. But look at the ears." Which could be a comment on his regeneration from the eighth to the ninth he may have been busy locating the transmitter of the Nestine Consciousness that he hadn't had time to look at himself after regenerating. That seems more fitting.

Regeneration posture

I'm not sure why this was removed. This is a significant aspect of regeneration. While it was not seen in the "original" series, it has been seen as part of the standard process in the revival, and Davies has stated that according to the current "rules" the series follows, this is how TimeLords regenerate normally - and there really is nothing in the original series to contradict this given the Doctor has usually been incapacitated and Romana regenerated off screen. Perhaps a reference to Davies' comments could be added, but we should try to keep things in-universe as much as possible. 23skidoo 04:55, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Not sure of the reason it was removed, as I wasn't the one to do it. However, having read the section, it does feel "removable". Too much certainty is attached to the explanation. There are at least three regenerations — 1-2, 3-4. and 5-6 — which shouldn't have more greatly inhibited the Doctor from standing than the ones we've seen in the BBC Wales production. You can't argue you want to "keep things in-universe as much as possible", then cite RTD as a major rationale. In-universe, there's not a satisfactory reason why absorbing the time vortex would have allowed the Doctor to stand, but simple old age wouldn't. The Ninth Doctor had the most traumatic cause of regeneration of the lot, and yet he stood when others didn't. There is no narrative logic; it's just an artistic choice. It can only be explained in an out-of-universe way. It is interesting to note, however, that all but the Tenth Doctor and Romana II have ended up flat on their backs immediately after the initial act of regeneration, though. CzechOut ☎ | ✍ 14:06, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

I removed it because there didn't seem to be any in-universe evidence that the posture was important. They never actually said the whether the Doctor was standing up mattered at all. -<Azes13 02:35, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

So, does anyone have any in-universe evidence that the position of the Time Lord during Regeneration matters? Or can I just remove it already? -<Azes13 16:39, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

As we have seen there throughout the TV series there is no set posture / position for a time lord to regenerate only a life threatening injury or enormous free will. I say move it to behind the scenes (original Series lying down / New Series standing up) or remove it Dark Lord Xander 06:34, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Master=Rainbow?

Umm...has anyone else noticed that when the master regenerated, instead of the usual gold color, the energy coming out of him was rainbowish?Papayaking 01:15, October 6, 2009 (UTC)

It's just the people who animate it trying to make it look more "realistic" (not quite the right word), and less gaudy. I mean, if you look back at the Ninth Doctor's regeneration, it's pretty gaudy and looks like a pretty mediocre CGI job. BlueBox 02:44, December 31, 2009 (UTC)

Tardis

I know that Russell T. Davies said that after the Master regenerated they decided that that was what all regenerations would look like. However, an in-universe explanation for this could be that all regenerations in the new series (including the one diverted into the Doctor's hand) occured in the Tardis (specifically, the Doctor's after it was put into its coral theme)? I know other regenerations have occured in the Tardis before then but if they ever decided to make an excuse, wouldn't that likely be part of it? BlueBox 02:44, December 31, 2009 (UTC)

Changing gender

The possibility was confirmed atlast - Eleventh was worried about it at the end of The End of Time part 2. Someone change it? xD 20:07, January 1, 2010 (UTC)

The possibility wasn't confirmed, it was suggested. For a laugh, I might add. :P 95.150.79.142 22:51, January 1, 2010 (UTC)

He was the only bloody person in the TARDIS. Who would laugh if it were a joke?--17:47, July 15, 2010 (UTC)

The viewer, perhaps? Bananas are good 21:10, December 1, 2010 (UTC)

Regeneration like dying

The tenth doctor said regeneration felt like dieing - looks like in the new series of the show regenerating is basically death for one incarnation of a doctor while another man is born with the same memories. Someone add it to the 'attitude' section?

I think it's fair to say that, for the new show, regeneration is basically "instant reincarnation". Which is cool, I like that. Though I think it's ridiculous for him to have said "everything I am dies"... because that's not true. I mean, hey, if it was really dying, how could the Tenth Doctor know what it felt like? And he never hesitates to identity himself with previous incarnations. RTD went a little overboard there, I think. 95.150.81.104 22:46, January 5, 2010 (UTC)

Haha. I was just watching the end of Season 3. Here's a great exchange:

The Master: Dying in your arms. Happy now?

The Doctor: You're not dying, don't be stupid, it's only a bullet. Just regenerate. 95.150.79.37 21:35, January 7, 2010 (UTC)

If you look at regeneration as another form of reincarnation then the only thing to survive through the changes would be the memories and self-consiousness.

In philosophical terms, only the Doctor's accidental properties change. His essential properties -- the things that mean he IS the same man from incarnation to incarnation -- remain the same. And Moffat has made it clear in DW:Confidental that regeneration isn't death. Thankfully, Ten's sudden "it's the same as dying" shift in outlook for EoT has been discarded as the silly excuse for tear-jerking that it was. As he said to Rose in the CoN special: "Rose, it's me. Honestly, it's me. I was dying, to save myself I had to change every cell in my body. But I'm still me". Long live the Doctor. 95.150.80.91 15:37, April 4, 2010 (UTC)

Tenth Doctor's Regeneration

Didn't immediately set in? I'm pretty sure it did and he just held it back for as long as he could. His healing the wounds on his face right at the beginning was part of the regeneration, after all. He wasn't staggering about because of the radiation, he was staggering about because his body wanted to change then and there and he wasn't letting it. 95.150.81.104 22:46, January 5, 2010 (UTC)

• Well, we don't exactly know what happened there. It would be more helpful if we knew without a doubt whether the cellular energy heals the cells and then reconstructs them, or vice-versa, or if they happen at exactly the same time. I certainly think it'd be easier to heal them and then re-arrange, since you'd know where the cells which need to be healed are before reconstructing them, but I have no actual proof (nor can I remember from any episode anything that outright states evidence for any, just that both happen). We know the Master was able to hold back his ability to regenerate (assuming the Simm incarnation of the Master wasn't the final incarnation in his current regeneration "pool", I guess you could say). It'd be a natural assumption that you'd have to hold back the regeneration all the way to death, otherwise it might still kick in. I think what might have gotten confused here is using the term Regeneration to just denote the physical change as opposed to the entire process. The physical change was held back until he couldn't stand it anymore (from my view), but the actual process of Regeneration did start at that point reference above. Gixander 21:54, June 17, 2010 (UTC)

Humanoid Regeneration only?

In article is said "...up to this point, all the main Time Lord characters' regenerations have remained humanoid."

However according to article the Bruce Master Master occupied some snake-like form (I am nto sure if he regenerated into this form)

Second and a Half Doctor?

SMProductions added the Second and a Half Doctor to the First and Last Words. Should he really be there, seeing as he is from a currently unfinished fan-made film? TemporalSpleen 15:12, March 7, 2010 (UTC)

Damaging "Energy" or damage to the Tardis?

Folks, yes, the David Tennant regeneration to Matt Smith was extremely damaging... But have we forgotten something?

Remember, 10th Doc just absorbed how much radiation? Now we know from Smith & Jones, that TimeLords can absorb radiation, focus it, and expell it..

When was the 10th Doc able to expell all the radiation from the reactor? He certainly absorbed it, and absorbed so much that he was forced to regenerate... But he certainly was contaminated by the radiation, but he didn't seem concerned about it... If he was, why did he go to the Bar? Or get close enough to Wilf to hand him the ticket, etc?

He absorbed all the radiation, contained it internally, without considering how it would affect the regeneration. As part of the process of the regeneration all that extra radiation/energy was expelled, damaging the tardis... This may have been one reason that the Tardis locked out the 11th doctor.. It was rebuilding, but also cleaning out the excess radiation...Bschollnick 17:04, April 9, 2010 (UTC)

The Master (Saxon) First words

Correct me if I am wrong but wasn't when the Master regenerated into Harold Saxon he was commenting on his new voice in his first words after regenerating?

I got the box set and I watched utopia after reading what you said. And acctually you're right. Alpha111 17:51, May 13, 2010 (UTC)

K-9's first words

As all the other words in this phrase mean "hello" I can only conclude that "Ola" should be "Hola"- the spanish word for hello.

13th/14th/18th/20th/21st Master

Where did these numbers come from?

If you follow the links, none of them appear on the page in question.

Tremas wasn't a regeneration, so he's still the 13th. As are the snake thing and Bruce. And how do you get exactly 3 additional forms between Tremas and Bruce, anyway? Or exactly one between Bruce and Yana--do we know that Yana was the 2nd incarnation of the Master's new cycle (or that he was the 1st, but there was 1 more earlier)?

And, even if the numbers were canonical, how many fans, much less normal people, would go looking for the Master's regeneration from 20 to 21, rather than Yana to Saxon?

It looks like the changes were made in this edit by Finister2, in the same edit which made the huge improvement of moving the Doctor's first words up and therefore getting that section into sensible order. So, I'll just manually revert the names.

But meanwhile, why are these even listed, given then only 1 of them was a regeneration? Not every death/rebirth is a regeneration, unless you want to have 500 or so entries for Jack (most of which will just be "*gasp*"). And that's especially true for Yana's first line after the chameleon arch, which isn't even a rebirth-type scene of any kind; we don't include John Smith's first and last lines and the Doctor's last and first before and after being him, which are exactly the same thing, or the very similar changes from the novel, or other pretty similar changes like Donna/Doctor-Donna/Donna, or Rose/Bad Wolf/Rose.

I'm going to go back through the history of the page and see if it seems to be a well-motivated change to include them all, and otherwise I'll remove them. --Falcotron 11:48, May 8, 2010 (UTC)

OK, it looks like Finister2 added the entire Master's first and last words sections a few days earlier in this edit, originally listing the Masters by number; DoctorForHire then edited it to put the names in and link them up properly, then Finister2 reverted them to numbers and also split the "20th Master" into two separate lines, the un-chameleoning line and the Yana->Saxon line.

However, the section on The Master earlier in the article has listed his non-regeneration changes into Tremas and Bruce for a long time, with italicized comments added in, so it would be a lot more work than just editing the chart to remove Tersurus->Traken and ???->Bruce. So, I'm just going to remove Bruce's last line, Saxon's last line, Saxon's extra first line crammed into the same table row, and the Yana's chameleon arch line, leaving the pseudo-regenerations themselves without comment. Here are the two charts as they were before editing:

Master	Episode	Last Words
the Master	The Keeper of Traken	"A new body at last."
the Bruce Master	Doctor Who: The Movie	"Never!"
Professor Yana	Utopia	"Killed by an insect... a girl! How inappropriate. Still, not to worry! If the Doctor can be young and strong... then so will I! The Master... reborn!"
Harold Saxon	Last of the Time Lords The End of Time	"Will it stop Doctor? The drumming, will it stop?" "You did this to me! All of my life! You made me! One!...Two!...Three!...Four!"

Master	Episode	First Words
The Tremas Master	The Keeper of Traken	"A new body at last."
the Bruce Master	Doctor Who: The Movie	"This body won't last long."
Professor Yana (After activating the Chameleon Arch)	Utopia	"Not to worry My Dear, when one door closes another must open."
Harold Saxon	Utopia The End of Time	"Ha Ha! Ha Ha Ha! Ha Ha Ha! Oh, Oh! Now then, Doctor! Oh new voice, hello-hello-hello. Anyway, why don't we stop and have a nice little chat, where I can tell you all my plans and you can work out a way to stop me, I don't think." "Never dying, never dying! Never dying! Never dying!"

--Falcotron 12:05, May 8, 2010 (UTC)

Professor Yana's last words, by the way, went "If the Doctor can be young and strong... then so can I", not "so will I". I would have edited the page to reflect this, but it's semi-protected, so I can't do it (yet?). Memcginn 18:54, May 18, 2010 (UTC)

Lead's definition of term

When I encountered it, article's lead said:

The term Regeneration was often used in place of incarnation, but referred to the number of regenerations that the individual had had (eg, the Fifth Doctor was the Doctor's Fourth Regeneration)

I've never heard of the Fifth Doctor being called the "fourth regeneration". He is the result of the fourth regeneration, but he's not, in himself, the fourth regeneration. The issue the lead is getting to is that people (fans, really, not sure I've ever heard/seen it in-universe) mistakenly call the Fifth Doctor the "fifth regeneration". I'm not sure this statement can in any way be backed up by an in-universe source. Anyone care to argue for the veracity of this statement before I remove it? CzechOut ☎ | ✍ 14:18, May 15, 2010 (UTC)

Nup (on the arguing thing). As far as the Doctor referring to his other selves; it's incarnations, selves, lives are the terms I can think of off the top of my head. The wording used in the lead may have come from (or extrapolated from) dialogue in The Five Doctors. --Tangerineduel 14:26, May 15, 2010 (UTC)

Ahhh, you're right. One does ask Five "Regeneration?" and Five says "Fourth", but that still doesn't mean he thinks of himself as the "fourth regeneration". One is asking, "Which regeneration caused you?" The first part of the statement is also bugging me, and I really don't think it can be cited in-universe. I know that in AUDIO: The Gathering, for instance the Doctor is specifically called "the fifth incarnation", and in Year of the Pig and No Place Like Home, there's considerable reminiscing about past lives and no confusion between "regeneration" and "incarnation" in either case. I'm sure it's more accurate to say that regeneration is the act, rather than the result. CzechOut ☎ | ✍ 15:09, May 15, 2010 (UTC)

I agree. Regeneration is the ability by which they, well, regenerate, and while the Fifth Doctor did answer the First Doctor's question, the question was more along the lines of "Which regeneration caused you?" (as suggested above) or rather "How many regenerations have we gone through at this point?" As far as we're concerned, the numerology before the Doctor's name ("First" Doctor, "Seventh" Doctor, etc.) is never mentioned on-screen (other than the 11th pointing out his own face and saying "Eleven" in The Lodger). Besides, even on the article here it says Time Lords have "12 regenerations" immediately followed by stating "13 bodies". Or something similar in words. I think a better way of wording it might be: "The term Regeneration denotes the ability by certain species to heal and rejuvenate the body, sometimes changing appearance in the process. The current Incarnation is always one more than the number of Regenerations a person has gone through, as while each successive Incarnation is caused by a Regeneration, the first Incarnation is brought into being by birth." Obviously someone could clean that up a bit better. Gixander 22:05, June 17, 2010 (UTC)

Regeneration is not just the ability to, but also the process of regenerating. The Thirteenth Doctor 22:21, June 17, 2010 (UTC)

The line I quoted above again crept into the lead, and I have again removed it. "Fourth regeneration" clearly means "fifth doctor" in universe. Please don't put back into lead without giving some sort of evidence for it from a valid source.
czechout<staff /> ☎ ✍ 14:04:20 Tue 01 Mar 2011 

K9

Does K9's "regeneration" belong in this article? Aren't we going a bit too much off the title of the pilot episode of the TV series? It's not really regeneration, is it? He never actually calls it regeneration in the episode, far as I can tell. The word is mentioned precisely once, in reference to the device that effected the rebuilding. Beyond that, it just seems wrong somehow to equate what happens to K9 to what happens to Time Lords. I'm all for including info from the K9 series on the wiki, but this seems to be trying too hard, based mainly on OOU suggestions like the title and the episode/series synopses. CzechOut ☎ | ✍ 15:37, May 15, 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps the K9 info can be stuck under a 'related processes' sub-heading, as this article is mostly about the biological regeneration. --Tangerineduel 16:07, May 15, 2010 (UTC)

Biological or scientific advancement

I can't find it anywhere on the article, but is regeneration a biological process or one that was created by science? If this isn't in the article, I think it should be noted. The Thirteenth Doctor 15:36, June 30, 2010 (UTC)

Correction needed for the Limitations section

As the article is locked, I can't edit it. The last paragraph of "Limitations" needs to be revised to conform to in-universe style. 68.146.81.123 22:15, July 6, 2010 (UTC)

First and Last Words

Many of the First and Last Words listed here aren't really relevant. The tenth doctor's aborted regeneration doesn't really count, because it wasn't complete. He didn't change, so the words aren't really significant. Apart from Yana's last words, and Saxon's first words, most of the Master's listings don't belong on this page. Possessing people, recovering from a chameleon arch, and being ressruected are all different from regenerating.Icecreamdif 19:08, August 12, 2010 (UTC)

I question the relevance of the entire "First and Last words" section to this article. It's meant to cover what we know about regeneration itself; a list of what characters happened to say before or after it isn't really relevant. It's like filling car with everything everyone's said just before driving one. Rob T Firefly 03:54, October 27, 2010 (UTC)

Well, regeneration is a much more important part of someone's life than driving a car is, but the quotes probably aren't neccessary in the article. Icecreamdif 20:52, October 27, 2010 (UTC)

507 Regenerations?

Did the Doctor actually say he had 507 regenerations in SJA? If so, is it considered cannon? Was he being tongue in cheek? Is 507 the new 13?

Yes he did, Russel T Davies said he assumed the fans wouldn't consider it cannon, we don't know, I doubt it. 213.107.151.20 20:38, November 5, 2010 (UTC)

It certainly isn't cannon, what you meant to ask was is it canon! And anyway, I think the idea was to remove 13 lives from canon rather than add a new number. Like Doctor Who would ever need a 500th regeneration anyway! The show would have to run for more than a millennium! Digifiend 04:49, November 6, 2010 (UTC)

It's pretty clear, from what RTD has said on the subject, that it was just done to throw a spanner in the works and to stop fans and journalists fretting about what happens when/if the thirteenth actor to play the Doctor decides to leave. I don't think anyone is meant to take it as explicitly meaning that the Doctor has precisely 497 further regenerations to come! Just that thirteen needn't be the definitive limit.

Certainly, the way it's delivered by the Doctor suggests that he's being facetious, as he so often is. Bananas are good 21:17, December 1, 2010 (UTC)

The Master

When I encountered it, article had these assertions about the Master, and they simply make no sense. How can the first incarnation regenerate into the eighth? Or the eighth into the thirteenth? Where are we getting this stuff? And the BF stuff isn't particularly well-handled. This whole section is extremely confusing. This needs to be reworked heavily. Don't put back into article until it makes better sense, please.
czechout<staff /> ☎ ✍ 14:18:09 Tue 01 Mar 2011 

• First to the Master: Trapped in The Darkheart. (PROSE: The Dark Path)
• Eighth to the Master: Devastated by a high-tech explosion orchestrated by Susan Foreman (PROSE: Legacy of the Daleks)
• Thirteenth to The Tremas Master: Used the power of The Source to steal the body of Tremas. (TV: The Keeper of Traken)
• Fourteenth to The Master (First Frontier)|Fifteenth incarnation (NA): Used Tzun nanotechnology to reconstitute himself, allowing him to survive being shot and critically wounded by Ace (PROSE: First Frontier)

The account by Big Finish Productions contradicts that by Virgin Books and unfortunately there is no possible way to reconcile this with any existing continuity.

• Fourteenth to The Master (Dust Breeding)|Fifteenth incarnation (BFA): Stripped of his Trakenite form by The Warp Core (AUDIO: Dust Breeding)

The below supports the account by Virgin Books, casting a shadow of doubt on that made by Big Finish Productions.

• Fifteenth incarnation (NA) to the Bruce Master: Stole the body of the human paramedic, Bruce Gerhardt after being vaporized by the Daleks and surviving through the use of a Deathworm/Morphant. (TV: The TV Movie)

Most of these new bodies were not strictly speaking, regenerations.

• Sixteenth to The Master (The Fallen)|Seventeenth incarnation: Rescued from The Eye of Harmony to battle for The Glory (COMIC: The Fallen)

Sometime before or after this, The Master's morphant form had found it's way to the early 1900's where it ran amok, possessing several individuals before acquiring the perfect host.

• Seventeenth to Eighteenth incarnation: Resurrected to fight in The Time War (TV: The Sound of Drums)
• Eighteenth to The Master (Harold Saxon)|Nineteenth incarnation: Regenerated to survive being shot by Chantho. (TV: Utopia)

The Master had been resurrected to fight in The Last Great Time War at this point, and probably had a new regenerative cycle bestowed upon him (per such an offer as that made in The Five Doctors). Although the Saxon Master's body is reconstituted and brought back to life in The End of Time, it is the same incarnation as previous, so this doesn't necessarily count as a "regeneration". It is unclear if he was merely unwilling to regenerate until his body totally failed or if he could not because his resurrection was sabotaged.

Title Photo

Right, so this may be a trivial point, but then again, appearances are everything. Shouldn't the title image on this page reflect something slightly more... contemporary? Well, that's not quite it, but never mind. Nonetheless, since regenerations have effectively been standardised, what with there now being five regenerations of the same type, barring minor artistic choices, shouldn't one of the post-2005 images be chosen? I would modify it myself, but am painfully aware of a) my technological ignorance and ineptitude, and b) the sacrosanctness of The Caves of Androzani. Wouldn't want to overstep and boundries, now....

86.173.3.227 17:40, April 25, 2011 (UTC)

It is a good question to ask.

Perhaps the uniqueness of the regeneration is why it is positioned there. Three examples of post-2005 regeneration are present elsewhere throughout the article. --Tangerineduel / talk 17:46, April 25, 2011 (UTC)

Time Lord Children

So Day of the Moon pretty much addressed this issue; can Time Lord children regenerate? And don't give me that Lungbarrow crap because the TV show has primary canon and it goes against the 'Loom' b/s many many times.

So I was wondering if the question of Time Lord children regenerating has ever been addressed in the spin-off? And if not... then I dunno. Just a thought of something to maybe bring up.MegaNerd18 09:46, May 2, 2011 (UTC)

FINALLY! someone agrees that Lungbarrow sucks! The answer, my friend, is called Day of the Moon. --OS24 04:43, December 11, 2011 (UTC)

diden't he die before regerating the 12th time?

diden't the elethanth die before regerating the 12th time? If they want to continue after the current actor quits theyll have to figure out how to get around this. a question: Where are the doctors ashes beried because i want to make a fanfic where he servives as a deathworm(it's a good idea that the tv series could copy intentioly or uninterntionly)

Sorry about spelling.– The preceding unsigned comment was added by Great toa nui (talk • contribs) .

Please remember to sign your posts with four tildes (~~~~) felinoel ~ (Talk) 01:41, June 16, 2011 (UTC)

An easy explanation could be that the poison of the judas tree used by river can prevent regeneration, either by affecting both his hearts simulteanously or something else 86.153.38.190 20:38, November 24, 2011 (UTC)WL86.153.38.190 20:38, November 24, 2011 (UTC)

A way to beat the dreaded 13

All the messages that were here have been deleted. Feel free to copy them from a previous version to the forum, but do not restore them here as they breach the talk page guidelines. Thanks--Skittles the hog - talk 17:35, September 8, 2011 (UTC)