Talk:Ultimate Sanction

Title

It should be Rassilon's Final Solution more so than The Final Solution. This is because it is not a single event but rather Rassilon's individual work.--Skittles the hog--Talk 21:06, January 7, 2011 (UTC)

I agree, it has more to do with Rassilon, maybe throw up a conjectural title tag on the page to express the fact that it is not a definate title. Revanvolatrelundar 21:07, January 7, 2011 (UTC)

The name in story is not "Rassilon's Final Solution", but "the Final Solution", correct? If so, 'nuff said. --Bold Clone 21:09, January 7, 2011 (UTC)

The Doctor's TARDIS is an example of an object being attributed to an individual. Why not an event?--Skittles the hog--Talk 21:10, January 7, 2011 (UTC)

False example; The Doctor's TARDIS is to distinguish the page from the other TARDIS pages. There is only one 'Final Solution' page, I believe. Your example is null and void. --Bold Clone 21:12, January 7, 2011 (UTC)

I never saw the point in creating the page anyway, surely all this info is just the End of Time and therefore should all be on the episode page anyway. Revanvolatrelundar 21:11, January 7, 2011 (UTC)

No, it is because it is the Doctor's TARDIS. This is Rassilon's Final Solution.--Skittles the hog--Talk 21:15, January 7, 2011 (UTC)

In fact this page is not even needed at all because its info belongs on the Last Great Time War page anyway, which is where the info is also. Therefore this page is a repeat of information and should be deleted. Revanvolatrelundar 21:17, January 7, 2011 (UTC)

Do you think so? The Battle of Canary Wharf and various others are part of the Time War. They have pages.--Skittles the hog--Talk 21:20, January 7, 2011 (UTC)

@Skittles: "The Doctor's" distinguishes his TARDIS page from the other TARDIS pages. Are there any other "Final Solution" pages that this needs to be distinguished from? If not, then I say we call the page by what it is called in the story.

@Revan: Yeah, this is probably a dupe page. I'll put up the delete template for you. Back in a moment.

@Skittles: The Battle of Canary Warf are events. The Final Solution is a plan. Big difference. --Bold Clone 21:23, January 7, 2011 (UTC)

The Battle of Canary Wharf wasn't as related to the Time War as this was, canary wharf had implications on the Earth side of things and it was only relevant to the Time War in that 4 Daleks escaped from the Time War into that battle. Rassilon's Final Solution is a direct extention of the Time War and is fully linked to the information in the Time War page, therefore it should all be on that page (which it is) and this one should be deleted. Revanvolatrelundar 21:25, January 7, 2011 (UTC)

Plans should have a page. This should expand on an event the Time War page summarises.--Skittles the hog--Talk 21:32, January 7, 2011 (UTC)

Hmm maybe you are right, we need admin direction about it i think, on the Last Great Time War page we could have "for more information on this topic see: (this article)", then the info would not be duplicated and could be elaborated in more detail on this page. Much like how the incarnations act on the Master page. Revanvolatrelundar 21:52, January 7, 2011 (UTC)

Yeah that sounds good. I don't particularly care for this page myself. I just thought we adopted the "If it exists, it’s in" approach.--Skittles the hog--Talk 21:56, January 7, 2011 (UTC)

Skittles has a point; if we delete this because it's basically a dupe page of info, then we should do the same for other pages, like the Howling Halls. --Bold Clone 22:16, January 7, 2011 (UTC)

I'd favour keeping it as an elaborated page branching from the Last Time War page. --Tangerineduel / talk 12:49, January 8, 2011 (UTC)

All right, but the is still the issue of the actual name: to we call it what the continuity calls it? --Bold Clone 00:08, January 9, 2011 (UTC)

Ahem...--Bold Clone 04:29, January 17, 2011 (UTC)

Ahem. --Bold Clone 22:00, January 24, 2011 (UTC)

Ahem. --Bold Clone 13:59, January 25, 2011 (UTC)

The page as it stands, called "Rassilon's Final Solution" is a good and descriptive title, it also helps to disambiguate from the Wikipedia:Final Solution, while it's probably not mentioned in televised DW I recall it being mentioned (probably in Just War or something like that). --Tangerineduel / talk 14:15, January 27, 2011 (UTC)

The best way to answer this is to turn to the canon: what does the televised story call the plan? If it calls the plan "the Final Solution," then I was right the entire time and this should have been left alone after my move. However, if the characters explictly call the plan "Rassilon's Final Solution", then we can keep the page as it is and remove the "nickname" template. However, the fact that it has the nickname template in the first place shows that the didn't call it "Rassilon's Final Solution" anyway. --Bold Clone 03:20, January 28, 2011 (UTC)

It does not actually say anywhere in The End of Time wither Rassilon's Final Solution or The Final Solution (the closest it gets is the Ultimate Sanction read part 2). The conjurate, title says 'best guest' and it has been chosen by this wiki to name it Rassilon's Final Solution. Mini-mitch 12:57, January 28, 2011 (UTC)

Mini-Mitch is right. It's explicitly called "the Final Sanction" by Rassilon. That should be the title of the article. --The Thirteenth Doctor 13:04, January 28, 2011 (UTC)

Don't you mean ultimate sanction, 13? (welcome back btw) and i agree it should be called that too. Revanvolatrelundar 13:06, January 28, 2011 (UTC)

Looking at the script and going back to the televised source (about 31 minutes into Part 2) Rassilon does indeed call it the Ultimate Sanction. --Tangerineduel / talk 13:22, January 28, 2011 (UTC)

The Ultimate Sanction... that's what I meant... haha... Yes, it should be renamed to that. --The Thirteenth Doctor 13:45, January 28, 2011 (UTC)

I'm glad that that's settles; however, would it be better as "Ultimate Sanction" or "The Ultimate Sanction"? --Bold Clone 20:34, January 28, 2011 (UTC)

I distinctly remember it being mentioned as "The Final Sanction." Just to muddle things up again...:P Styracosaurus Rider Speak to the Rider! 02:50, January 29, 2011 (UTC)

The script quite clears calls the it The Ultimate Sanction. Mini-mitch 16:)8, January 30, 2011 (UTC)

Alrighty, should it be moved to The Ultimate Sanction then?

Styracosaurus Rider can you cite a script page number or how many minutes into Part 2 that it's called that? --Tangerineduel / talk 15:31, January 31, 2011 (UTC)

To cite the script:

LORD PRESIDENT
Now the High Council of Time Lords
must vote. Whether to die here,
today. Or to return to the waking
world, and complete the Ultimate
Sanction. For this is the hour.
That either Gallifrey falls...
(triumphant)
Or Gallifrey rises!

Page 36 of 79 on pdf version, 87 INT. BLACK VOID. --Revan\Talk 15:48, January 31, 2011 (UTC)

It should be moved to The Ultimate Sanction, since the script says that, however if Styracosaurus Rider can provide a source (Time in DVD, etc) that says The Final Sanction, then I think we should discuss what we call it further. Mini-mitch 17:26, January 31, 2011 (UTC)

Removed conflict infobox

	The Final Sanction The End of Time
	The Last Great Time War
	December 2009
	Earth, Gallifrey
Combatants
The Doctor, the Saxon Master, The Master Race
Time Lords
Leaders
The Doctor
Rassilon
Strength
2 Time Lords, 6,727,949,338 (Master Race)
Billions
Result
Sanction failed: White-Point Star is Destroyed and Gallifrey was plunged back into The Time War.

The sanction was more a mass-murder act which never happened rather than an actual conflict. As much firepower the Master uses against the Vinvocci ship, I certainly wouldn't think of the Master as some sort of commander of the Ultimate Sanction. -- Tybort (talk page) 19:12, November 12, 2013 (UTC)

Timeline of events

I know a lot of people take the line about the High Council's plans having already failed as referring to the Final Sanction, including the transportation of Gallifrey to Earth, but to me, it seems that the plans that had failed were plans prior to the events of The End of Time. The Time Lord who showed disregard for the High Council would have been fighting long enough to know that they had tried many ideas which had failed, and he had no faith that their next idea would be any more successful. The Council at the time of this story were in emergency session speaking of new plans (which I believe were the plans from The End of Time). A female councillor in that story said that the Doctor possessed the Moment, which he may well have picked up after shooting "NO MORE" into the wall. Near the end, when the Moment is showing a projection of the battle, the firing is shown to stop and the sky gets brighter. This might well be the point at which Gallifrey is transported to Earth. It's not long after this that the projection stops, so if they have moved, the Doctors will not see it, and they could have long enough amongst themselves for Gallifrey to have been returned to its original position before the plan to suspend it begins. I don't believe any of the events of The End of Time take place prior to The Day of the Doctor, but rather, during it. ProtoKun7 ☎ 21:42, December 12, 2013 (UTC)