Talk:World Enough and Time (TV story)

A better source is probably needed, but...

Benjamin Cook, the writer for Doctor Who Magazine, has confirmed on Twitter that the opening sequence of the episode was filmed two weeks before broadcast during production of the 2017 Christmas special. How that can be addressed in the article space without violating the spoiler policy ... I'll let you figure it out. Source: https://twitter.com/benjamin_cook/status/878765850433597441 23skidoo ☎ 03:45, June 25, 2017 (UTC)

Floor list

I mean, seriously guys? A screen capture of that sea of redlinks listing every floor on the ship, none of which will ever have enough information to justify an article, is on the verge of going viral. 23skidoo ☎ 12:29, June 29, 2017 (UTC)

Agreed, I'm not a big fan of it either. Perhaps just references that there are 1056 floors rather than list them all when they will only have a generic line to their name each? Snivystorm ☎ 12:33, June 29, 2017 (UTC)

They justified it by only including the floor numbers that we were able to see on the lift as it was descending but I too agree that it is ridiculous. The only floors that are needed are floor 0, floor 507 and 1056 with a reference that there were 1056 floors altogether Xx-connor-xX ☎ 13:01, June 29, 2017 (UTC)

Accordingly, I've moved this info off this page, but I think it's appropriate to preserve it -- in an unlinked fashion -- over at Colony ship (World Enough and Time). These floors are a feature of the ship without being locations for the story.
czechout<staff /> ☎ ✍  19:54: Thu 29 Jun 2017

Black hole

Shouldn't an image of the black hole in the episode be added? 24.205.83.199^{talk to me} 08:30, July 1, 2017 (UTC)

If you feel it necessary, it is worth a shot, though you'll probably need a few of he story as a whole as well. Snivystorm ☎ 09:00, July 1, 2017 (UTC)

Main enemy discussion

Given recent edits, I have decided to collate the editor's reasonings here so we can formally discuss this rather than go back and forth changing the infobox. As these points were collected from their respective edit summaries, if my interpretations of the editor's in questions points are incorrect, the editors named may feel free to join in and clarify/expand.

According to User:Scrooge MacDuck, he believes the Cybermen are the main enemies in this story while Razor is simply sidelined as a background force to them. User:BananaClownMan, while agreeing the Master is not the primary foe, goes further in specifying it is the surgeon who is the main enemy given he is 'in charge' of the Cybermen.

I personally disagree with both and believe it is the Saxon Master who is this episode's main enemy for the following reasons. First, the Cybermen are not even fully created or evolved into 'proper' Cybermen until Bill's conversion at the end of the episode. Also, I don't believe the Surgeon can be aptly characterised as the primary enemy either because he barely appears in the episode. Yes, he is the one (implied) to convert Bill, but then this is done through the Master's manipulation, who earns Bill's trust and then uses it against her to get her into conversion theatre. Plus, the surgeon does not even appear in the final scene when the Master makes his big reveal and effectively 'defeats' the Doctor in this episode through what he did to Bill.

I would also like to note that discussion similarly took place at Talk:The Doctor Falls (TV story). While brief, it was concluded there that the Master was the main enemy of this story. Granted, that talk page doesn't concretely apply here, but it's a decent precedent for this discussion.

I look forward to further responses, if others wish to join in. Snivy ✦ The coolest Pokemon ever ✦ 18:44, April 29, 2020 (UTC)

Personally, I saw nothing wrong with the status quo of the Mondasians as a whole/the Surgeon, the Cybermen, and the Master all appearing in the |main_enemy= field as a compromise for a case where it's really rather up-in-the-air.

Because, narratively speaking, Razor might be the "villain", but is the "main enemy"? He's the reason Bill in particular gets converted when she does, but the opening scene of The Doctor Falls makes it quite clear that the genesis of the Cybermen would have happened anyway — and also that they don't actually answer to him.

In terms of real-world plot mechanics, at no point in this episode (save very tentatively the cliffhanger) is the Master opposing, or being opposed by, anyone. Razor is a supporting character/comic relief for most of the runtime, and it is the Cybermen/proto-Cybermen who serve as the threat which the characters run away from/try to fight off. This is in stark contrast The Doctor Falls, where he is actively working against the heroes throughout, down to killing one of the main protagonists on-screen.

For that same reason I would argue against the Surgeon being the main enemy; he is little more than an extension of the Cybermen in terms of plot mechanics, and nor is he actually in charge of them either, he's just the man who makes them.

Arguably, the whole dysfunctional Mondasian society which leads to the Surgeon having the conversion job may be argued to be the enemy of Bill's story, while the (proto)-Cybermen are the enemy of the Doctor's story. But not the Surgeon himself.

The fact that there are two different plot strands is, I feel, another good reason to have two or more answers in the |main_enemy= field: the Doctor's enemy and Bill's enemy needn't be the same.--Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 18:53, April 29, 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, it's an issue I have seen crop on a few pages. While I get there is wiggle room for who is the main enemy, I've set this discussion up because (end of the day) the template says 'main enemy' thereby meaning a singular force who is the primary force against the story's heroes, rather than every single bad guy we see. To go with the wiggle room means, in essence, people can make a case that anyone can be an enemy. For instance, one could say Jorj is an enemy because he was the one who shot Bill, leading to her separation from the Doctor in the first place. Still, it's a fair point that their are two plot strands given how we follow first the Doctor and then Bill's perspective. But as the episode shows, the Doctor's half is no way in danger and instead there for fun expository purposes to give us (the audience) the run down on the whole time dilation dilemma.

Still, given the nature of the infobox, we are going to have to decide on a main enemy one way or another. Hopefully others (particularly those who have edited along similar lines to you and I) join in the discussion to voice their views.

Also, I'd like to add, if my memory serves right, the Master did control the Cybermen in The Doctor Falls (hence controlled them in this episode) but lost that control because the Doctor reworked the network when knocked down by Missy. As shown, Bill herself even only moves to help to Doctor once the changes are 'updated' in the Cybermen's network. Snivy ✦ The coolest Pokemon ever ✦ 19:11, April 29, 2020 (UTC)

I like what User:Scrooge MacDuck is saying about the Surgeon being a symptom of the Cybermen instead of the course. Given his input in the context, it would seem the true enemy here is not an individual, but a concept; in this case, cyber-conversion itself is the enemy, with the Cybermen (and "Proto-Men") being the physical manifestation of this concept.BananaClownMan ☎ 21:09, April 29, 2020 (UTC)

While I like the idea, giving into the concepts as the embodiments of evil in the episode would surely call for a complete rework of defining what exactly an enemy even is. Right now, the enemy space contains 'physical' beings if you will (ie: The Master, Cyber-Men, Daleks etc.) as the primary foes.

However, if we start falling down the line of adopting concepts as the enemy, that falls into vague abstractions that become enemies that would require elaboration for why those concepts should be the main enemy. For instance, with the concept idea, one could argue the main enemy in Heaven Sent is not the Veil but rather grief itself, since the episode is a metaphor for the Doctor's grief over Clara's death. Likewise, one could say the closing of the Parallel Worlds (or long distance in a more concrete sense) is the main enemy in Doomsday because the most tragic part of the episode (by most viewers standards) is the separation between the Tenth Doctor and Rose Tyler.

I apologise if the above examples appear absurd but they are to emphasise why going down the 'concept as an enemy' route can lead to a complete reworking of what exactly an enemy is and an up-hill course to completely rewrite and define hundreds of articles to fit the parameters. While it could lead to some thought-provoking (even fascinating) discussions, simplicity is surely the best route here for the sake of editing - hence a single, tangible enemy, would be the best route to stay on. Snivy ✦ The coolest Pokemon ever ✦ 21:29, April 29, 2020 (UTC)

Snivystorm, I see nothing in The Doctor Falls to indicate the Master is in a place to command the Cybermen. All the Doctor does is change their programming so that they will now track down Time Lords as well as humans ("one heart to two hearts… welcome to the menu"), after the Master sputters that they're "primitive… programmed to find and convert human beings!". The Master in the opening scene is just chilling on a rooftop watching the Cybermen march into battles, safe in the fact that they aren't programmed to attack him, but not in charge of them.

And, I agree that a concept shouldn't be an enemy, but a group certainly can be; I was arguing that it was the dystopian Mondasian society/state which was arguably the enemy in Bill's story, which is what the current presence of Mondasian in the "main_enemy" field alongside "Cybermen" and "the Saxon Master" is, I assume, meant to represent.

I think the way my argument could be phrased is, I think "enemy" should stand for "antagonists": the characters or groups of characters who are hindrances or threats to the main characters throughout the story. The Mondasian state is a threat and hindrance to Bill (forcing her to work for them, and eventually converting her), the proto-Cybermen are a hindrance and threat to everyone in the first scene and continue to be a threat to Bill on further occasions. Razor/The Master, however, may be the more villainous character, but he's only revealed to have been enacting his own evil scheme in the background at the very end of the episode; he's hardly the antagonist. Indeed, he has, if anything, been furtherign Bill's plot rather than hindering its progression, even if he's tricked Bill into doing precisely what he wants her to do.

Actually, the Veil being recognised as the "main_enemy" for Heaven Sent is an interesting precedent: the very end of the story reveals that the masterminds responsible for the Veil's actions are the Time Lords, but it's unquestionably the Veil who is the antagonist of Heaven Sent itself, and so it is the main_enemy. --Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 21:36, April 29, 2020 (UTC)

<edit conflict>

Yes, let's keep concepts out of the main enemy field (which is the second most incorrectly used field in infoboxes). And to point out something User:CzechOut has said numerous times, infoboxes are for non-disputable information. Shambala108 ☎ 21:39, April 29, 2020 (UTC)

Hmm… that's true (though I've not lost hope of us reaching a consensus here yet), but neither can we well leave the main enemy field blank on an extremely famous new series TV story, can we? Especially when no one disputes that there is a main enemy, with the uncertainty being instead on exactly who is or isn't the main enemy (or enemies). --Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 21:46, April 29, 2020 (UTC)

It seems we are coming to the agreement that the Cybermen are the "enemy/antagonist", while the Master is "featured" as a plot element that happens to be in an antagonistic role, and that's mainly in the cliffhanger.BananaClownMan ☎ 21:58, April 29, 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for the correction User:Scrooge MacDuck regarding the Master's power over the Cybermen. It appears my memory was a tad off. However, that still does not solve the issue over who/what exactly is the main enemy. I'd also like to elaborate that I'm not against groups being in the main enemy part of the infobox (given a plethora of Doctor Who media branch out from singular beings acting as enemies) so would be happy to have the Cybermen as the main enemy in this story.

I am rather cautious of us ending this discussion so swiftly though. I mean, is it not rather quick of us to close discussion so soon before others have had a chance to chip in?

Also, for User:Shambala108, out of pure interest did User:CzechOut elaborate on what they meant by 'non-disputable'? Could prove useful to know for further discussion. Also, again from curiosity, what other field is considered the most incorrectly used? Snivy ✦ The coolest Pokemon ever ✦ 22:09, April 29, 2020 (UTC)

Ok to clarify a point above, there's nothing wrong with leaving any infobox field blank if necessary.

Anyway, there have been a couple discussions about other infobox fields where CzechOut stated that they should not exist since the info is not indisputable (I believe episode numbers was one of the discussions). He specifically said infoboxes should only be for indisputable information and that any info that is arguable could/should be in the story notes or behind the scenes. In this case, as long as you guys can come to an agreement, we'll call that indisputable.

And in my experience the most incorrectly used infobox field is "main alias". Shambala108 ☎ 22:32, April 29, 2020 (UTC)

I question why the Master isn't considered to be a "main enemy" in the next episode. Xx-connor-xX ☎ 01:01, April 30, 2020 (UTC)

A question about the next episode should be on that episode's talk page. Shambala108 ☎ 01:56, April 30, 2020 (UTC)

Is it not part of the same discussion though? Xx-connor-xX ☎ 02:16, April 30, 2020 (UTC)

This is the talk page for the episode World Enough and Time. Questions about other episodes would go on their separate talk pages; issues that affect more than one page are usually taken to the forums. Shambala108 ☎ 02:32, April 30, 2020 (UTC)

In addition, I would like to clarify a discussion already took place there concluding the Master was not the main enemy. But, of course, feel free User:Xx-connor-xX to restart the discussion on that article's respective talk page. Snivy ✦ The coolest Pokemon ever ✦ 12:03, April 30, 2020 (UTC)

I think its safe to call this discussion ended. It's been about a week and no one has contributed to it, and the majority who have are in agreement about the Cybermen representing the "enemy" role.BananaClownMan ☎ 15:21, May 3, 2020 (UTC)

Not quite. Based on the history, this discussion started on the 29th of April, meaning it's only been four full days. But yes, consensus so far is that the Cybermen will represent the enemy bar.

As a side suggestion though, perhaps Patient (World Enough and Time) is the more fitting slot, given there are no proper Cybermen in the episode until Bill's conversion. Snivy ✦ The coolest Pokemon ever ✦ 18:01, May 3, 2020 (UTC)

That page's writeup isn't entirely clear on whether it's about individuals or a "monster-type", though. Only the latter would justify its use. But I'd argue that "Cybermen" is still the more proper choice, if "Mondasians" doesn't satisfy. The Patients are as much victims as they are enemies —and they are only enemies inasmuch as they are already near-Cybermen. --Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 18:04, May 3, 2020 (UTC)

The patients are pretty much victims though. This feel to me like the old ‘who is the tyre monster of Frankenstein?’ debate again. NightmareofEden ☎ 18:05, May 3, 2020 (UTC)

It has now officially been one whole week since this discussion started and the consensus is clear that the Cybermen are to be classed as the main enemy in the story. I take all who have partaken in this discussion are happy with this conclusion and wish to close this discussion? Snivy ✦ The coolest Pokemon ever ✦ 14:32, May 6, 2020 (UTC)

All groovy with me.BananaClownMan ☎ 15:03, May 6, 2020 (UTC)