Talk:Cyberman/Archive 1

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Mondasian Cybermen or Cybus Cybermen in Blood of the Cybermen

I remeoved this text :

"Cybermen will appear again in Blood of the Cyberman, as part of episode 2 of Doctor Who The Adventures games starring Matt Smith and Karen Gillan. This marks 21 years since the last time the original cybermen have appeared in Doctor Who.Cybermen will appear again in Blood of the Cyberman, as part of episode 2 of Doctor Who The Adventures games starring Matt Smith and Karen Gillan. This marks 21 years since the last time the original cybermen have appeared in Doctor Who.Cybermen will appear again in Blood of the Cyberman, as part of episode 2 of Doctor Who The Adventures games starring Matt Smith and Karen Gillan. This marks 21 years since the last time the original cybermen have appeared in Doctor Who."

I removed this on the grounds the game has not yet been released, thus far we don't know if the Cybermen in the game are from this universe or are Pete's World cybermen, but that all pre-release images suggest they are modified Cybus design cybermen. I think it would be better to wait a few days until the game is released before making any such statements.

In addition, the original Cybermen have not appeared ON TV since Silver Nemesis, but they have appeared in other media, including the BBC broadcast 8th Dr audios, so the statement is rather less than clear.

Mr Pepperpot 16:15, June 23, 2010 (UTC)

So, Blood of the Cybermen is out, and we still don't have any answers. In The Pandorica Opens we learn that the Cybus Cybermen somehow still got into our universe, and are now a sea-faring race. The game doesn't make it clear exactly which the Doctor is dealing with.--Samoth 16:14, June 27, 2010 (UTC)

Space faring....... not see faring Fan555 17:45, June 27, 2010 (UTC)

I propose a merge. In The Next Doctor, the walls between Mondas and Pete's Cybermen was blurred and Blood of the Cybermen and The Pabdorica Opens have certainly strengthened that becasue we don't know which version they are. I'm australian, so I havent played Blood yet, but from what Ive read, it isnt said that they're Mondas Cybermen. The fine line that used to be drawn between the two species has been cut up. This is why i think they should be merged. I'm A Hydroponic Tomato! Bigredrabbit (talk to me) 03:48, June 29, 2010 (UTC)

It's just stupid to label them Mondasian Cybermen when they're unconfirmed...the logo is a potential indication but it is not an evidence...cybermats are definitely NOT evidence, since the Cybus Cybermen's technology advances significantly everytime we meet them...these cybermen should definitely be placed on both articles as unconfirmed if not merging the articles as Bigredrabbit said above...the Cybus Cybermen could very well have been the 'ancestors' of Mondasian Cybermen or any other wacky explanations...but listing unconfirmed things as facts is just plain stupid...203.168.176.42 16:58, July 3, 2010 (UTC)

Why does this have a seperate article? I haven't played the game, but my understanding was that these are definetly either the original Cybermen, or the new parallel universe Cybermen (Pete's World), but they are definetly not yet another version of the Cybermen. Since we already definetly have a different page for them, we just don't know which page, we don't really need a seperate page. If there is any information on these Cybermen that is significant enough that it must be added to the other article, it can just be added to both articles, with a background note saying that these may be the other Cybermen.Icecreamdif 00:13, December 22, 2010 (UTC)

The cybermen from The Pandorica Opens, The Big Bang, Blood of the Cybermen, and A Good Man Goes to War are they cybusmen or origional ones?

The real-world reason for the use of the design is obviously to avoid confusion (unsure about the change in logo however). Blood of the Cybermen could not be used to introduce the Mondasian Cybermen back into the series; not everyone who watches the show will play the game and will therefore not know fully what is happening. I'm not so sure about concidering them the originals (and while I'm on this, the Cybermen in The Pandorica Opens are clearly Cybus, and I myself concider the Cybermen in A Good Man Goes to War Cybus kind for reasons stated in the Cybermen and Twelfth Cyber Legion talk pages). As for these Blood Cybermen, I think Cybus as little as I do Mondasian - although sometimes I think a mix of the two. However, there are odd times where I think the same as the Cybermen in A Good Man Goes to War. Not much in there, too much "I think" and personal thoughts but these Cybermen are quite confusing.TheCoud'veBeenKing 17:20, June 9, 2011 (UTC)

Overview page?

How about making the main Cyberman article an overview page about all kinds of cybermen, their differences and similarities, while having the current article as a more specific article at Cyberman (Mondas) or something like that? I'm not suggesting a full merge - the details would still be in separate articles. Ausir^(talk) 21:54, December 1, 2010 (UTC)

Mark eight

Shouldn't the Cybermen The Doctor encountered in Pete's World be called mark eight? They were the eighth model that The Doctor encountered. 74.195.213.196 06:32, January 9, 2011 (UTC)

The Cybusmen had nothing to do with these Cybermen. They coincidentally have the same name, and a similar appearence, but they were developed completely seperately, by somebody who had no knowledge of the "real" Cybermen. Icecreamdif 03:39, February 11, 2011 (UTC)

The cybermen from The Pandorica Opens, The Big Bang, Blood of the Cybermen, and A Good Man Goes to War are they cybusmen or origional ones?

The ones from A Good Man Goes to War have no Cybus logo and have quite a presence where they are, so I think they might be from this universe. I certainly hope so; the parallels have been around for too long. If we get a confirmation of that, then information about them should be included in this section. ProtoKun7 21:59, June 4, 2011 (UTC)

Mondasian Cybermen or Cybus Cybermen in Series 6, A Good Man Goes to War

Take a closer look at this image. No Cybus logo! Could it be the original Cybermen?

This question really needs to be answered. The Cybermen which appeared during the first two minutes of the episode, had no Cybus logo on their chest, and they had Cyber-ships in space, like our universes ones. Cybermen or Cybus Cybermen? Cortion 14:08, June 5, 2011 (UTC)

It's seems more likely they are Mondasian. TemporalSpleen 14:22, June 5, 2011 (UTC)

I would be inclined to say Mondasian, but we still have no proof of this. --Revan\Talk 14:26, June 5, 2011 (UTC)

I agree there is more evidence that they are Mondasian, but it hasn't been comfirmed, there ment to appear in a later story so lets wait till then and see if that tells us. General MGD 109

I'm actually more inclined to think Cybus Cybermen. Personally, I feel a bit uncomfortable concidering them the original Cybermen - the odds of them being essentially just the same as varients from another universe kind of bugs me. That's my personal thought out the way - now for evidence: as it seems likely that the Cybusmen have recently become a space-faring race (like in The Pandorica Opens) and that they have left their own universe and have now chosen to live in our universe, I think that may explain the lack of logo in A Good Man Goes To War - since they are living in our universe where there is no Cybus, that company name now means nothing to them and so the 'C' logo means nothing at all so they have done away with it. Furthermore, I don't think the show would introduce the original Cybermen back after all these years in a cameo and with so little changed. I'm quite looking forward to the original's return, and I'd be disappointed if it happened it that brief pre-title cameo, and if it hardly introduced anything new. So, I think they are Cybus Cybermen, but if it is not later confirmed, I'll just go on my speculation - as long as it keeps me happy :)TheCoud'veBeenKing 20:11, June 7, 2011 (UTC)

I don't really think the writers are going to address this issue, so its up to us to make a decision over where we're going to place these Cybermen. In my opinion, we should merge Cyberman (Pete's World), Cyberman (Blood of the Cybermen) and Cyberman (Good Man) into Cyberman. The Cybermen and Cybusmen are different in the way the CyberMondasians and CyberNomads are different. They're the same species, just different factions. Bigredrabbit 11:02, June 11, 2011 (UTC)

That would make sense, although I'm not 100% sure about merging all four pages but merging Pete's World, Blood, and Good Man Cybermen together would be a good idea - There's bound to be viewers who don't pay it as much heed as we do and just choose parallel Cybermen anyway. Despite the lack of explanation and continuity, all three of them are essentially the same thing. Three pages of them aren't too necessary (Blood and Good Man could possibly be the same space-faring Cybermen, just a different logo). If the Mondasian Cybermen are reintroduced to the show some day, we'll know that Blood and Good Man are not the Mondasians, thus making things easier around here.90.200.188.9 17:34, June 11, 2011 (UTC)

Here's a mock-up of a merged Cybermen article (obviously to be expanded): User:Ausir/Cyberman. What do you think of the general idea, though? In this version, the current article would be moved to Cybermen (Mondas) and Cybermen (Pete's World) would also be preserved, but the main "Cyberman" article would encompass all major varieties, with less detail than the more specific articles, instead of being only about the Mondasian version. Ausir^(talk) <staff/> 13:05, June 14, 2011 (UTC)

I don't see the need for confusion, and I think we're being a bit bloody-minded to try to argue that the AGMGTW Cybermen aren't "our universe" Cybermen. There's no doubt that they are in our universe, is there? Rory hasn't slipped off to a pocket dimension, has he? Of course not. The label "Mondasian" is awfully confusing, because it tries to assert something that was never very clear in the classic series, anyway: that Cybermen came from Mondas. Even Kit Pedler and Gerry Davis weren't sure about that. The issue here is solely whether these guys were from our universe, and they most certainly were.

Also, I think Occam's razor would suggest we take the evidence before our eyes and go for the simplest explanation. We see an advanced space-faring civilisation here — something that doesn't characterise the Pete's World guys. We've never seen a single space ship outta those guys. Not even one, so far as I'm aware. We have however, seen many space ships outta the "our universe" guys, and — y'know what — the spaceships in AGMGTW obviously are of the same design as those seen in The Invasion. And the control area of the ship we seen in AGMGTW is consonant with that seen in Earthshock. Furthermore, the design of the Cybermen in AGMGTW has changed in more ways than just the chest symbol. The armouring is completely different to anything provided by the new series so far. These Cybermen have "bare midriffs" and more slender codpieces; much much more of their central body is unarmoured. It's a different cybersuit, not just one with the logos switched. That shifts the burden of proof to those who say these guys aren't from our universe. Add that to the fact that Peter Hoar says they were meant to be the original, "our universe" Cybermen in the director's commentary and you've got production intent plus in-universe visual clues that can't easily be interpreted to support a "who are these guys?" interpretation. We've been told, through the visual medium of television, who these guys are. For some reason, though, we don't want to accept what we've been told.

The totality of what appears on screen — not just dialogue — can be used to write articles around here. We don't need a line of dialogue saying "Hello, Doctor. We are from Mondas." There's more than enough evidence to suggest that these guys are the originals. If later on down the line we get some sorta backstory for how they have a Cybus-like design, fine, we can add that to the article. But this article is wrong for currently suggesting there are four types of Cybermen in the DWU.
czechout<staff /> ☎ ✍ 16:03:43 Fri 17 Jun 2011 

Stop talking rubbish. We have seen the Cybus Cybermen with spaceships. Remember in The Pandorica Opens, when River mentioned 'Cyberships', the Cybermen that teleported down were Cybus Cybermen. Also, their is nothing different apart from the logo in the 'Good Man' Cybermen. As for the 'mighty space faring civilisation' you mentioned below, the Cybus Cybermen in TPO were able to time travel an entire fleet of Cyberships to 102 AD, they were also able to teleport down from their spaceships, something unaccomplished by the original Cybermen, so if anything, the Cybus Cybermen are actually more technologically advanced than our universes Cybermen. As for the Peter Hoar commentary, he said these were 'different Cybermen' in terms of APPEARANCE as the removal of the logo was a subtle redesign of sorts.--86.176.65.186 20:59, June 17, 2011 (UTC)

Indeed, given The Pandorica Opens, I wouldn't assume without doubt that they are purely of Mondasian origin. Perhaps them having the Cybus logo in TPO was a mistake on the part of the crew, but it still happened. Ausir^(talk) <staff/> 23:49, June 17, 2011 (UTC)

Since we have confirmation from the director of the episode that they are not Pete's World Cybermen, I suggest that we merge them into the Mondasian Cybermen page and leave a footnote to the source on the internet where he said this into the Behind the scenes section. --Revan\Talk 17:23, June 18, 2011 (UTC)

I agree that it is only logical to assume that the Good Man and Blood CYbermen are Mondas Cybermen. Bigredrabbit 06:20, June 28, 2011 (UTC)

The Pandorica Opens, A Good Man Goes to War, and Blood of the Cybermen

If it is established that theses are the Mondasian Cyberman, then the ones in The Pandorica Opens (TV story) must also be, as the same cyberships where seen in The Alliances Fleet. Also it is said somewhere in this wiki that the producers where originally going to redesign or modify the cybermen in pandorica, however if we just imaging the C loge doesn't exist on them it all makes more sense. So The Pandorica Opens (TV story), A Good Man Goes to War, and Blood of the Cybermen are Mondasian cybermen not Cybus ones. --{{SUBST:User:Kingofall42/SigReal|{{SUBST:{Predated }}}}.

I completley disagree. Cortion 16:15, June 5, 2011 (UTC)

Yeah... completely disagree. "if we just imaging the C loge doesn't exist on them"... or another way to put it... if we go completely against canon? Nah. We don't do that. Not at all. Fact is... we don't know where they originated. And until we do, it's unconfirmed. --The Thirteenth Doctor 16:31, June 5, 2011 (UTC)

Surely it makes more sense to follow what Moffat wanted, rather than drawing conclusions from the design of the Cybermen featured ? That C logo could be a coincidence. -- 81.5.185.58^{talk to me Beardo} 22:44, July 7, 2012 (UTC)

I also disagree, the proposal is going with speculation when there is quite clearly half a season's worth of information yet to be broadcast. As with the Forum:Can we say River is the little girl? discussion it is best to wait and see what the information brings rather than to try and second guess things and speculate what was meant. --Tangerineduel / talk 15:25, June 6, 2011 (UTC)

I have just found something that complicates the matter even further. The Mazes of Time features Cybus Cybermen, but during part of the story, the Doctor visits their cyber tombs on Telos. --Revan\Talk 15:03, June 13, 2011 (UTC)

I think that at this point it's pretty much clear that the Cybus and Mondasian Cybermen have somehow merged into one group, despite their separate origins. Ausir^(talk) <staff/> 12:56, June 14, 2011 (UTC)

Seeing at most of this "overview" page is just the contents of the in depth pages, I suggest that this page becomes a disambiguation page or is simply noting the types and their differences. It shouldn't have an infobox, history or any of that as it isn't referring to any set variant. Perhaps it should just have a heading for each type with a brief description and a link to the main page.----Skittles the hog--Talk 10:11, June 15, 2011 (UTC)

I agree, the history section should provide links to each variant of Cybermen pages. --Revan\Talk 10:19, June 15, 2011 (UTC)

I'm not so sure, given that it documents the Cybermen that are of unknown or merged origin as well. I think it should have a summary of history of all variants of Cybermen in general, even if not in as much details as it does now, and with links to the more specific histories. Ausir^(talk) <staff/> 10:27, June 15, 2011 (UTC)

They do not have an intertwined history. Just an unclear one. See this sandbox for a basic outline of my idea. Improve it as you wish. This article is just patches of the other articles without any useful information, bar the section on differences.----Skittles the hog--Talk 10:30, June 15, 2011 (UTC)

I guess you're right, how about the current version? I only left the history of the "unified" Cybermen in the article. I think it's best to keep all of it here instead of splitting it off to separate articles for the VG ones, for the "Good Man" ones etc. Ausir^(talk) <staff/> 10:37, June 15, 2011 (UTC)

I like it, yeah. I suppose it will be altered over time, but its a great start. Good work.----Skittles the hog--Talk 10:39, June 15, 2011 (UTC)

I don't think using an image of one version to represent an article on different species is against policy - e.g. we have an image of Time Lords at the top of humanoid, even though it's an overview article on various similar species. I think having the latest (Twelfth Cyber Fleet) variant of Cybermen as the image at the top of the article is a good idea, just like the one at Silurian, despite there being vast differences between subspecies of Silurians. Or maybe someone could make an image that depicts all major variants, just like the one at The Doctor? And generally, I think it's a good idea to always have an image at the top of the article. Ausir^(talk) <staff/> 10:49, June 15, 2011 (UTC)

Most articles on this wiki don't have images at the top of the page, and sometimes it just doesn't look right. I've added a pic with four variants on it. I just used one for the blood/good man Cybermen and the caption links further down the page.----Skittles the hog--Talk 11:27, June 15, 2011 (UTC)

Looking good! Ausir^(talk) <staff/> 11:36, June 15, 2011 (UTC)

The Unspecified Cybermen - At Some Point

Good work on the clean-up, but I'm sure we all know we're not finished here yet. We're going to have to do something about the Cybermen from Blood of the Cybermen and those from A Good Man Goes to War at some point. If I may make a suggestion for a later time, I shall start by pointing out that the Cybermen seen in the aforementioned stories are either Cybus or Mondasian - I'm sure we can all agree that they haven't come from a completely unrelated origin, and so to have three different types of Cybermen that are all more-or-less the exact same despite the logo. These Cybermen are either Cybus or Mondasian, we just don't know which but not a different branch.

So, if their origin is not picked up on again, such as the Cybermen in the Adventure Games are unlikely to be referenced in the show proper for example, we'll have to go by elimination of possibilities (IF it's not picked up on, it may be but not likely). If the Mondasian Cybermen are seen again in the show, then are there any objections to merging the Blood Cybermen with the Cybus Cybermen? We do know the Cybermen became a space-faring race (TV: The Pandorica Opens and GAME: Return to Earth, despite it's reception, is still canon around here), and the Blood Cybermen are a space-faring race, so they'd fir just fine together. The same could also go for the Good Man Cybermen.

So, if the Blood and Good Man Cybermen are confirmed not to be Mondasian, then they can only be Cybus. So if we do see the Mondasians again, would anyone have any problems with merging Blood and Good Man with Cybus?90.200.188.111 15:04, June 15, 2011 (UTC)

They can be either Cybus, Mondasian or both - one possibility you haven't mentioned is them being a result of an alliance between Cybus and Mondasian versions. Anyway, we know that at least one of the episodes in the 2nd half of series 6 will feature Cybermen, so let's wait for whether it will explain anything. My feeling is that they are not going to be mentioning the origins of these Cybermen at all, though. Ausir^(talk) <staff/> 15:19, June 15, 2011 (UTC)

This is just turning into speculation. We should just think of them as different altogether until the show dictates otherwise.----Skittles the hog--Talk 15:26, June 15, 2011 (UTC)

Yes, until confirmed, we should just note their similarities and differences from both previously seen Mondasian and Cybus versions. Ausir^(talk) <staff/> 15:30, June 15, 2011 (UTC)

Yes, yes, I know this may be seen as travelling into the relms of speculation, but are the production team just going to introduce a new type of Cybermen out of nowhere? The show already has two, what does it need two more for? Not to mention that three of them are just about the exact same things, and yes there are things that look the same but are different, but three factions of Cybermen and to that degree? Really? No, realistically, there are only two, we just don't know which of two origins certain groups came from.

Should the matter not be picked up on-screen yet the Mondasian Cybermen come back, it wont be speculation, it would be elimination of the possibilites.

As for Cybermen born out of an alliance between Cybus and Mondasian, I was going to write that it somewhere but I think that's the most speculation view there is right now. That is something that will have to be confirmed by the show or we can't put it anywhere.

So anyway, two types of Cybermen. Anyone want to argue there are more?90.200.188.111 15:42, June 15, 2011 (UTC)

No-one is arguing that there are more types, just two variants that are diffucult to classify to either Mondasian or Cybus. --Revan\Talk 19:13, June 15, 2011 (UTC)

That's fine. That's the point I was trying to make. What I was meaning is that if we agree that there are only two types of Cybermen, then if we see one (say Mondasian) then we'll know what the others are ( so we could put them in Cybus). Or if they are confirmed to be Mondasian, we'll put them in the Mondas page, same with Cybus. It's just that if they are never confirmed, then I'll say again that we can eliminate possibilities.90.200.188.105 16:23, June 16, 2011 (UTC)

As I said two sections back, I think we're being deliberately obtuse by trying to argue that there's some doubt as to the identity of the AGMGTW Cybermen. They're obviously from our universe. Rory hasn't slipped into Pete's World. They don't bear the distinctive Cybus Industries logo. Their cybersuits are wholly distinctive from the Cybus guys, in more ways that just the logo. They're a mighty, space-faring race — which the Cybus guys clearly weren't and couldn't be. And they have spaceship designs that are directly descended from those seen in The Invasion. Add to that the fact that Peter Hoar says they're the original Cybermen, and you've got production intent and in-universe visual cues. We're cutting our noses off to spite our faces by maintaining this belief that we haven't been explicitly told that they're "our" Cybermen. The Ninth Doctor never uttered the word "Cyberman" in Dalek, yet we all happily conclude that our eyes aren't deceiving us in that episode. Never heard anyone argue that we weren't looking at a Cyberman there. Nor have I ever heard anyone suggest that the Cybermen in Silver Nemesis, despite looking very different from the Cybermen in The Moonbase, are a different species, or from another universe.

We're operating from precisely the wrong point of view, here. Given the in-universe fact that Cybermen from our universe look different in almost every encounter with the Cybermen — in other words, that they constantly upgrade — it should be our assumption that the Good Man guys are from our universe until there is direct and conclusive evidence to the contrary.
czechout<staff /> ☎ ✍ 17:57:51 Fri 17 Jun 2011 

Well, it doen't have to be. And they're not "clearly" from out universe, it hasn't been confirmed yet. Also, there is evidence that the Cybus Cybermen have become a space-faring race. Return to Earth for example (I know, I know, but it's still canon) and in The Pandorica Opens too, the Cybusmen are seen travelling in space and those at Stonehenge have Cyber-ships. And why would they deceive us inDalek? There'd be very little gained there. Well, while we don't know what AGMGTW Cybermen really are, I suspect that we're maybe putting too much weight on it - many other viewers wont really care. But, until then, whatever we agree we want to do, I myself am going to accept them as Cybus until further notice - a multiverse coincidence like that just bugs me.

I think it's clear that they are of Mondasian origin, but I wouldn't be so sure about them being only of Mondasian origin - I wouldn't rule out the possibility of the two groups meeting up at some point and joining forces. Ausir^(talk) <staff/> 23:44, June 17, 2011 (UTC)

I don't see how it's clear that they're Mondasian. Yes they have a fleet and lack the Cybus logo, but appearance, voice, sounds, "Cyber-Lord" with visible brain... Until confirmation, they're Cybus to me at least. But I suppose that's the beauty of speculation.

In my view, speculation is the province of those who want to deny these are the prime universe's Cybermen. Such people are letting some visual similarities to the Pete's World guys get in the way of what's actually on screen. The nature of parallel/alternate worlds is that the guys in the prime world look fairly similar to those in the alternate world. Spock looks basically like Mirror, Mirror Spock, save a goatee. Superman of Earth-1 looks like Superman of Earth-2, except for a slightly different logo on his chest. Pete of Pete's World looks like Pete of Rose's World but he has money — which is largely what allows Jackie of Rose's World to fall so instantly for him. The only thing that's weird about the Cybermen is that we've met the alt-Cybes of the modern era prior to meeting prime-Cybes. But we have now definitely met prime-Cybes.

Look at the reaction, above, to the AGMGTW leader. People have rushed to call the dude with the exposed brains a "Cyber-Lord". But that's a Pete's World term — and, importantly, one never used in the script. In fact, exposed brains isn't exclusive to Pete's World Cybermen. Troughton-era Cybermen got there first. See, for instance, Tomb of the Cybermen's Cyber-Controller. To me, it's far more likely that's what he is. It's speculation to call him a Cyber-Lord; it's merely using established facts from the universe in which this creature exists to call him a Cyber-Controller.

Again, the salient point here is that these guys in AGMGTW are unambiguously in the "prime" DWU, and no part of this story has anything to do with alternate realities. The Doctor even gives a recap of TPO/TBB in a speech. If we were dealing with alternate universes in any way, he'd have taken that time to draw a parallel to that situation. He doesn't. We're firmly, absolutely, incontrovertibly in the one reality ofthe home DWU. To even suggest that these guys are Pete's World Cybermen is to go well beyond the text of the script, and to ignore what our eyes tell us. The speculation is in saying "until we get confirmation, these aren't the main-universe Cybermen". No, if we get more details in the future, then we change the article. But until then it's absolute folly to attempt to create yet a fourth branch of Cybermen. I honestly believe that if this wiki had been around back in the 1960s, we'd have had four different Cybermen articles by the time we got to the end of the Troughton era!

The Pandorica Opens has been brought up as an example of space-travelling Pete's World Cybermen, but this forgets the narrative point of The Big Bang. Those guys are erased from history. They never existed. I don't know, yet, whether it can be asserted that the Cybus dudes are entirely removed from history, but certainly the ones who had spaceflight, the ability to cross dimensions at an oblique angle to the time stream (don't know if I'd call it actual time travel, since Mickey was shown to come back 3 years when he jumped dimensions), and some teleportational facilities — this branch of Cybus-evolution is definitely removed by the collapse of reality.

As for a videogame being canon, well, no. Yes, we cover such things, because they are fully licensed by the BBC. But as for whether we can use narrative elements from a Wii game called "an insult to Doctor Who fans" by one reviewer — well, there we're on shakier ground. The current revision of tardis:canon policy doesn't mention video games at all, and we still have an open debate on the matter at forum:We need a policy on videogames. Still it's pretty clear that the flat assertion above about Return to Earth that "it's still canon" is not accurate. It's canonicity is both in doubt and in debate; what's not in debate is the fact that we can have an article about it on this wiki. We allow coverage of it, but its of dubious use in writing articles.
czechout<staff /> ☎ ✍ 14:17:32 Sun 19 Jun 2011 

Lets put it simply. Another 'splinter group' Cybus Cybermen escaped from the void the same way the ones in The Next Doctor did, but into a different planet and time period. Then they developed space and time travel and advanced technology, resulting in the Space-Faring Cybermen seen in TPO. Then they removed the Logo on their chest as it means nothing any more, resulting in the logo-less Cybermen in AGMGTW. There, it's simple, it works and it makes sense, why would anyone want to mess it up?--Dalekcaan14 14:55, June 19, 2011 (UTC)

Again I don't see how it is clear that they are from Mondas. It isn't stated anywhere, maybe in the real world but not everyone watching the show is going to know what it said in interviews. It isn't stated on-screen what type of Cybermen these ones are - it's not clear that they are Mondasian based on the given AGMGTW evidence. Ah, forget it - same argument over and over again. What about this: if different Mondasian Cybermen appear on the show, what will we do with the Cybermen on Blood and Good Man?

Main thumbnail image

We don't need that image. It is unnecessary to have it up. This is my main point: This shows all the different types of Cybermen we seen on screen so far, but we don't have a picture showing all the different types of Daleks on screen so far, e.g. Time-War, Progenitor. So there, so in the mean time, I will be taking that image down until the matter is solved. Cortion 15:35, June 15, 2011 (UTC)

No you won't. This wiki is not for you to run free on. Please wait for discussion on the image. We show companions on the companion page don't we? I remember you contested that also. It doesn't show all the Cybermen, just some. Both I and User:Ausir decided that an image was needed for the top of the page and this was decided upon. Again, this is a case of you not listening to others. Please discuss changes when it is requested of you so as to be a productive member of this lovely wikia's society :) Thanks ----Skittles the hog--Talk 15:44, June 15, 2011 (UTC)

"Again, this is a case of you not listening to others"? What on earth are you talking about? I listen as much as you do. Now, about "Please discuss changes when it is requested of you so as to be a productive member of this lovely wikia's society" I understand. I want and would love to be a productive member of this lovely wikia's society. So you beat about the image being removed. So now that image will stay up there. But remember that is only a temporary image, if you could persuade me to make it pernament, and other editors agree, then it will be pernament. Understand? Happy with that? Cortion 15:57, June 15, 2011 (UTC)

I like the image and feel it should remain on the page, but I feel that you, Skittles, are being a bit. You said "wait for a discussion on the image" and that you and Ausir have discussed this, but is a discussion between two Users about how a page should look really a discussion, should you have not raised it here first so that more Users could have their say? I also agree with Cortion that we should have something like this for the Dalek page. And like I said, the image should stay. Mini-mitch\talk 16:06, June 15, 2011 (UTC)

All my points are valid. You (Cortion) removed this image based solely on your own opinion. It was Ausir that proposed the image and I created it. That shows that it was a joint decision. Same with the Eighth Doctor image. I consulted other users, you didn't. Now, about this temporary thing, you said it about the Eighth image as well. What are you talking about? Anyway, of course I'd be happy to listen to other users, that'd be great.----Skittles the hog--Talk 16:07, June 15, 2011 (UTC)

Why do people like this image? What's so good about it? And also, I agree with Mini-mitch about you are being a bit. Cortion 16:54, June 15, 2011 (UTC)

How ironic. Yes, I only discussed it with one user but that's a lot better than not at all. I also said I was open to other opinions. I couldn't see any points for its removal raised here. Yet again, it was unfounded preference. I don't understand Mini-mitch's point. Should I make a discussion whenever I want to add an image?----Skittles the hog--Talk 17:03, June 15, 2011 (UTC)

Not with any image. I just thought after the discussion with the other Users, you'd post the idea here to see what other Users think. The image is good because it gives an all round idea of what the Cybermen from the different stories look like, I know not every appearance is on there, but it what the main different Cybermen look like and show how the Cybermen have changes over the year in television and comic/novels. If a User who had no idea what Cybermen look liked and with Users who do, they come onto this page a see the image and good "The the original and the Cybermen from the New series, along with two of the most commonly featured one", that, to me, is why it's a good image. Mini-mitch\talk 17:12, June 15, 2011 (UTC)

Oh, thanks for clearing that up. I'll bear it in mind.----Skittles the hog--Talk 17:14, June 15, 2011 (UTC)

I don't think that having four different type of Cybermen in the main image is necessary. The main image should just be one image that represents the Cybermen as a whole, preferably the most recent image available which would be A Good Man Goes to War, and then the other images would be throughout the body of the article. If we must keep the image with multiple Cybermen, however, I would reccomend that one of them be of the original Cybermen look, from before Invasion. The Cybusmen and the Cybermen from A Good Man Goes to War may or may not be the same, but they look almost identical, so we don't really need both. I think it would make more sense to have one from before Invasion one of the design that was used from Invasion onwards in the Classic series, one from the new series, and one from the comic.Icecreamdif 02:43, June 16, 2011 (UTC)

Thank you! Someone who agrees with me! Cortion 06:44, June 16, 2011 (UTC)

One image wouldn't be enough to accurately portray the Cybermen. As for condensing the Good Man and Pete's World Cybermen, you can't really do that. In appearance they aren't really that different, but in origin they are. I already just used one image for the Artic and Good Man Cybermen. I can't really see the advantage of using a pre-Invasion Cyberman. Why do you want such a change? ----Skittles the hog--Talk 08:58, June 16, 2011 (UTC)

By the logic of using multiple pictures in the infobox of things that look different, we should have 2 pictures of Amy in the infobox, several pictures of the Brigadier in the infobox, a few pictures of the TARDIS in the infobox, etc. We don't know the origin of the Good Man Cyberman, but the infobox really only shows the appearance of the Cyberman anyway. Obviously, they would be mentioned, and an image of them would be featured, in the body of the article, but it doesn't really add anything to the infobox. They are presumably a version that we have seen before anyway. It is unlikely that there is yet another species who coincidentally looks exactly like the Cybermen, so they are probably either the Mondasian or Cybus Cybermen. We just don't know which ones yet. I think the pre-Invasion ones should be there, because the Cybermen actually looked significantly different before that, and it would show what they initially loooked like. It would also illustrate the Cyberman's ability to upgrade their appearances over time.Icecreamdif 12:52, June 16, 2011 (UTC)

How can you compare Amy to the Cybermen? Amy is one person, so it does not matter what her infobox picture is, aslong as it shows her. As for the Cybrmen, this page is not for a particular group of Cybermen, just like the Companion page is not for a particular companion. The image, needs to stay at the top of the page because it gives an overall view of what the different Cybermen look like. There is no way that it should show only on version of the Cybermen, as that can go on thier own page. We are creating this page about the Cybermen, as in all the Cybermen, so the infobox picture should show the main types of Cybermen encounter or the most important changes in Cybermen. If you want to see an image about on particular Cyberman, as you, Icecreamdif, seem to want, Users will be able to get onto the page of the particualr Cyberman they want to see. Mini-mitch\talk 13:37, June 16, 2011 (UTC)

Why has this idea of having this page relatelinking to different types come up so recently. With a wiki like this, we should have thought of this before, e.g. after the broadcast of Rise of the Cybermen. So there's my question: Why haven't we thought of having the Cyberman article relating to all the different types before? Cortion 15:03, June 16, 2011 (UTC)

Because before there were only really two different types... what we called Cybermen, which are now the Mondas Cybermen, and the Cybermen from Cybus Industries. But now.... because of Blood of the Cybermen and now A Good Man Goes to War, we don't know where they originate, so we need to class them as their own race until further informed.

Now... here's why I think we should keep the image. The Cybermen are a broad range. They are essentially all the same race, but with minor differences in appearance. In other words... they're like the Doctor. The Doctor is the same individual... but with different faces. On his page we have the main image as all of his faces. So on this page we should have all of the Cybermen's different looks. The same should go for the Daleks. --The Thirteenth Doctor 16:14, June 16, 2011 (UTC)

We shouldn't try and show all the Cybermen, just the unique types. Daleks are all one species so there is no need for such an image, just a single shot showing a Dalek (or several).----Skittles the hog--Talk 16:17, June 16, 2011 (UTC)

Well, Daleks aren't an unvariegated species, of course, else there would never have been a civil war, nor would there have been a need for the new progenitor Daleks to kill off the old, RTD-era ones. From an in-universe perspective, Daleks don't think of themselves as one species, or Dalek Sec would be alive and well today. The problem I have with the pic is a) the bottom-left quadrant has comic speech balloons in it and an image of the Sixth Doctor and b) it's just too busy. (I'm not quite clear how the ones with the Sixth Doctor are a unique species, anyway.) I say go with a simple double image, split right down the middle. Take one from Tenth Planet and one from Rise of the Cybermen. Two images: one from the origin story of each major type of Cyberman. Then in the caption you put, "Two types of Cyberman", and you're done. The image doesn't have to be exhaustive. You're just trying to say with the image, "There is more than one type of Cyberman". We should be going for the simplest expression of that idea — not the most complete.
czechout<staff /> ☎ ✍ 17:43:34 Fri 17 Jun 2011 

Sounds like a good plan. I put the comic one on because it's kind of disputed.----Skittles the hog--Talk 17:50, June 17, 2011 (UTC)

I'd go with 4 images - pre-Invasion Mondasian, post-Invasion Mondasian, Cybus and Cyber Legion. Ausir^(talk) <staff/> 23:40, June 17, 2011 (UTC)

Have it up then. But I will tweak and change the image a bit, either today or tomorrow. Cortion 09:33, June 18, 2011 (UTC)

What? You're going to edit an image that doesn't even exist yet, why?----Skittles the hog--Talk 10:03, June 18, 2011 (UTC)

No. No, no, no, no, no, I meant I will change the picture we've already got up to make it look better. It'll have to be tomorrow when I do it. Cortion 16:56, June 18, 2011 (UTC)

Chopped it in half. Retaining the Mondasian and Pete's World variants.----Skittles the hog--Talk 17:19, June 18, 2011 (UTC)

I've tried to make it better, but it didn't work. That image is unecessary because this article goes over all types of Cybermen, not only two (Mondasian and Cybus). This discussion is still active, I assure you.– The preceding unsigned comment was added by Cortion (talk • contribs) .

Not until you think of a reason and justify it.----Skittles the hog--Talk 09:31, June 20, 2011 (UTC)

I don't know about the comics, but in the TV show there are only two types of Cybermen (Mondasian and Cybus).

Um... I like the image, just one issue, isn't the "Pete's World" half of the picture a Publicity shot? Correct me if I'm wrong. --OttselSpy25 ^{talk to me} 15:49, October 29, 2011 (UTC)

Closing Time Cybermen

Should the Cybermen in Closing Time be listed under Cybermen of the Cyber-Legions, as they seem to be the same type with those chestplates. --MrThermomanPreacher 13:45, September 25, 2011 (UTC)

Yup, same type. Ausir^(talk) <staff/> 14:18, September 25, 2011 (UTC)

Cybermen of the Cyber Legions

Okay, we have confirmation hat these Cybermen are from Mondas now (The Brilliant Book 2012). I'm still quite disappointed that the design isn't anything significantly new (which is why I was previously thinking Cybus, and which I still think for the Blood of the Cybermen varient for the same reason) but I'm glad some of it's sorted now. I have noticed though that a few Cyberman storie pages (Like A Good Man... and Closing Time, and even some classic series stories) list the enemy as 'Cybermen' or mention it on the page but it is linked to this general overview page rather than the specific Mondas Cybermen page. I think that's something that should be cleared up.90.200.188.177 11:33, November 19, 2011 (UTC)

2 Doctors without adventures with cybermen

the 9th doctor also didnt have an adventure with the cybermen they only had a cameo – The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.150.211.185 (talk).

No, he had an adventure where an inactive head appeared in an alien museum he was in. (The Dalek is explicitly referred to as the only live exhibit at GeoComTex) He never faced an actual Cyberman in a cameo role or a full appearance. -- Tybort (talk page) 21:04, December 20, 2011 (UTC)

Actually, the Third Doctor DID have an adventure with the Cybermen, in AUDIO: The Blue Tooth. OS25 (talk to me, baby.) 01:00, January 16, 2012 (UTC)