Howling:Problems with the Asylum

Howling: → Howling archive → The Howling archives → Problems with the Asylum

This thread has been archived.

Please create a new thread on The Howling if you want to talk about this topic some more.
Please DO NOT add to this discussion.

The followings make the Asylum seems problematic:

1. Why is there an exiting teleport station in an asylum that's meant to be strictly quarantined -- especially one that the Daleks themselves specifically said they would not enter? Moreover why a force field that only the "patients" in the Asylums can shut down and allow themselves to be teleported outside?

2. Why does an impenetratable force field that is able to resist blaster that could blast an entire planet fail to block a small vessel crashing onto the planet?

3. Why is there even security for protecting the Asylum's "patients" in the first place if they are meant to be disposed? Why would the creator of the Asylum creates nanocloud to convert more people into the Asylum's "patients" servants and their kind?

4. Contrary to what the Dalek Prime Minister said, none of the Daleks there demonstrated any hatred or sanity at all -- they all only seemed mentally handicapped. Why were they even there in the first place then and not be exterminated due to inferiority?

5. Why are insane Daleks connected to the Pathweb? Cases like Oswin are bound to occur at some point.

6. Why do insane Daleks "of pure hatred" suddenly became peaceful to a stranger whom they formerly could indentify as the Doctor?

7. Why do Daleks in the Asylum even make use of the puppets? Why does the nanocloud create puppet for Daleks that are insane? Wouldn't making sleeper agent for insane individuals be kind of dangerous -- moreso when they are insane Daleks?

The episode itself is not that much better:

1. The existence of a Dalek Parliament is against what we have seen and known of the Daleks. Especially when within the episode, there is a mentioning of a pathweb that make Dalek communicate telepathetically in a manner similar to hive-mind, rendering communications in the Parliament meaningless. Moreover, are Daleks suppose to be democratic now?!?

2. Moffat owes us a reason of how the Pathweb connects to Daleks across different times. Othewise, it is extremely unlikely and pure coincidental that the Doctor's future encounter with the Daleks are those affected by the Pathweb corruption.

3. One minute its offensive to kill extremely dangerous Daleks that could end the entire Dalek-race; several minutes later they decided to blast the entire planet into pieces and kill everyone. In one episode the Daleks are sacrificial for the continuation of their race, in another they became coward and unwilling to risk going to the asylum. In other episodes the Daleks fear the Doctor, and then suddenly they invite him to their parliament and even did the extremely nice gesture of placing his Tardis beside him unlocked.

4. There's absolutely no sensical justification for what the Daleks did.

5. The Daleks mention they have no concept of elegance in the Battle of Canary Wharf but they have the concept of beauty...isn't that kind of the same thing...

6. Why do Daleks puppets who have functioning eyes need eyestalks?

--218.189.39.8^{talk to me} 02:46, September 8, 2012 (UTC)

An answer for the first (2) is that there was a hole in the forcefield that the Daleks couldn't find but the spaceship unintentionally had. The rest is for everyone else to wonder. 87.102.83.33^{talk to me} 10:47, September 8, 2012 (UTC)

Most of your problems can be explained. For your problems with the Asylum,

1. The teleport system is presumably in case the Daleks were ever desperate enough to enter the Asylum for whatever reason. The forcefield can not normally be shut down by any of the patients in the Asylum. It's a pretty good security system that the only way to take down the forcefield is to get past a bunch of insane Daleks. Oswin was only able to take down the forcefield because she hacked into the pathweb, which was only possible because she was a Dalek.

2. As has been said, there was a hole in the forcefield that the Daleks couldn't find. That is why the Daleks panicked and brought in the Doctor.

3. The Human-Dalek puppets were not there to serve the Dalek patients, merely to protect such "beautiful" creatures from intruders.

4. They all seemed to demonstrate plenty of hatred. After all, the ones that were sane enough to know what was going on continually tried to kill the Doctor and his companions. The only reason that they survived was because they had Oswin's help, and most of them were broken down.

5. It would seem that Daleks are naturally connected to the Pathweb, and cannot be disconnected. They were presumably not supposed to be able to gain access to all of the systems and other Dalek minds like Oswin was though.

6. As Oswin said, those Daleks normally remained dormant. The only reason that they woke up was to kill their most hated enemy, but once he became a stranger they no longer had any reason to bother.

7. The puppets are there to guard and protect the insane Daleks, not to serve them.

As for your criticisms of the episode itsself,

1. The Dalek government changes all the time, so it is not too surprising that they have an emperor now. The pathweb is used for spreading information, but decisions must be made in person. The Daleks may have some form of democracy, though presumably not the same type that is seen in countries like the US and Britain. After all, democracy is not a good system only because it gives everyone rights and a say in the government, but because it can take different ideas from many different people, and the majority decision will likely be the best decision. Presumably, members of the parliament, who were chosen because they were the most intelligent Daleks, vote on important issues to help decide what course of action is best for the Daleks.

2. The Daleks have had time travel for ages, so they can probably communicate through time. Besides, the Doctor usually seems to meet them in a pretty linear order anyway.

3. It was offensive for the Daleks to destroy the Asylum, but they had no choice once they realised that a ship had managed to break through the forcefield. If the insane Daleks ever escaped from the Asylum, it would be just as bad for the Daleks as it would be for the rest of the universe. The Daleks are sacrificial, and are willing to brave almost anything for the continuation of their race, but this situation is so dangerous that even they will not brave it unless there is no other choice. The Daleks do fear the Doctor, which is exactly why they invited him to their parliament. They know that he is likely the only person in the universe who can get past the insane Daleks in the Asylum, and as an added bonus, they get to blow him up with the Asylum. The Daleks do not have a TARDIS key, so they have no way to lock the TARDIS.

4. If you had paid attention to the episode, you would have seen the part where the Daleks explained exactly why they did what they did. They were not friendly fellows who calmly told the Doctor their plans and asked him for help. They were genocidal maniacs who were facing even greater genocidal maniacs who kidnapped the Doctor to force him to kill their enemies. They've seen enough episodes of the show to know that the Doctor and his companions are "shot at a planet" as Rory put it, find an enemy, and defeat it, so that is exactly what they did. They took the Doctor, gave him some companions, shot him at a planet, and let him do his thing. They needed to kill Daleks, so they released the Predator of the Daleks. Incidentally, that would be an awesome title for a future episode.

5. Beauty and elegance are not precisely the same thing. When referring to elegance in Doomsday, they were referring to physical traits. The Daleks did not care how elegant their forms were like the Cybermen(or Lumic) did. When referring to beauty in Asylum of the Daleks, the Daleks were referring to inner beauty. In this case, the Daleks pure hate.

6. The eyestalks are better than human eyes.

Asylum of the Daleks is easily the best Dalek episode that we've gotten since Moffat took over the show, so I don't understand why you are so desperate to find flaws that don't exist.Icecreamdif ☎ 15:47, September 8, 2012 (UTC)

Icecreamdif, bear in mind these words of great wisdom: Some people are never satisfied. --2.96.17.22^{talk to me} 21:11, September 8, 2012 (UTC)

Keep in mind, we've only had two Dalek episodes since Moffat took over...so this is of course in the "top two Dalek episodes since Moffat took over."

Also I didn't care for the episode becuase of the plot holes that they left for us to fill in with speculation. Answer me this: how did the Asylum survive the Time War? --Bold Clone 02:54, September 9, 2012 (UTC)

one thing that was brought to my attention by somebody, and which i think is a reasonable qustion, is why the daleks have started calling the doctor the predator when they've always called him the doctor in the past. why start calling him the predator now? Imamadmad ☎ 02:46, September 9, 2012 (UTC)

The Asylum survived the Time War because it wasn't involved in the Time War. The Doctor just never mentioned it because he thought it was a myth. If it hadn't been for the progenitor thing in Victory of the Daleks, there could have easily been an episode where the Doctor still thinks that the Daleks are all dead before finding more last surviving Daleks on the Asylum. Predator is just another one of those titles that the Daleks have for the Doctor that they rarely actually address him as, like The Oncoming Storm. Besides, the new progenitor Daleks may have decided to come up with their own name for him.Icecreamdif ☎ 03:24, September 9, 2012 (UTC)

Hasn't Moffat done 4 Dalek episodes, when you count the Series 5 ending? 94.72.192.2^{talk to me} 16:19, September 10, 2012 (UTC)

Well, it depends whether you're counting Dalek-centered episodes, or episodes that happen to have Daleks in them. Also, don't forget The Curse of Fatal Death.Icecreamdif ☎ 17:37, September 10, 2012 (UTC)

Er... Why not forget The Curse of Fatal Death? --89.240.248.92^{talk to me} 00:22, September 11, 2012 (UTC)

it was a dalek episode written by moffat. personally, it is my favourite dalek moffat episode, regardless of its canonic status. Imamadmad ☎ 01:46, September 11, 2012 (UTC)

Okay so just one thing I don't get if the daleks could shoot the doctor at the planet why couldn't they shoot the planet? Cory Jaynes ☎ 02:57, September 11, 2012 (UTC)

They could only use those tube things within a very localized area. They would be able to get a handful of missiles to destroy a small part of the planet, but that wouldn't be particularly helpful. And The Curse of Fatal Death may be Moffat's best overall episode, despite the fact that it is clearly not canon.Icecreamdif ☎ 16:06, September 11, 2012 (UTC)

Has the original poster actually seen the show before?

• "When did the Daleks suddenly became friendly fellows who entrust the Doctor with their plan?" I think that would be Evil of the Daleks. Since then, off the top of my head, Death to the Daleks, Resurrection of the Daleks, War of the Daleks, two different comic series, Daleks in Manhattan, and Victory of the Daleks have had the Daleks telling the Doctor their plan and asking for his help at least once during the story. Not to mention all the times they capture other hated enemies like Davros to ask for help.

• "The existence of a Dalek Parliament is against what we have seen and known of the Daleks." Yes, we all know that there's a Dalek Council, ruled by a Dalek Supreme. Except when there's a Dalek Command, ruled by an Emperor Dalek. Or a Black Dalek, or a Dalek Prime, or a Supreme Controller, or… --70.36.140.233^{talk to me} 10:46, September 23, 2012 (UTC)

As far as forms of government are concerned, the one and only thing the Daleks have ever been consistent about is that they should govern absolutely everyone else (if they allow anyone else to exist, that is). Among themselves, they've adopted various different forms of government at different times. --78.146.189.73^{talk to me} 08:47, September 24, 2012 (UTC)

There are things get.....

1. The Asylum is on an icy planet. The Council shouldn't worry about the insane Daleks escaping since extreme cold is was proven in Planet of the Daleks when liquid ice killed a lot of Daleks.

2. When the mad Daleks attacked, why didn't the old ones including the Special Weapons Dalek attack?

3. If the Daleks the Doctor met before Oswin were from Power of the Daleks and Death to the Daleks, why do they resemble new ones instead of old ones?

4. Why didn't Oswin accuse the Dcotor of lying when she doesn't know that she is a Dalek yet?

5. Why did they use chan the Daleks could just break free off them?

6. Why would the Daleks have a statue when they human's emotions? 86.147.213.134^{talk to me} 18:29, December 6, 2012 (UTC)

Taking 86's points in order:

1. You're making a false assumption. "Cold" & "extreme cold" aren't the same. The liquid ice in Planet of the Daleks was stated to be far colder than normal (e.g., arctic) ice. You're also missing a basic physical fact -- cold liquids are much more chilling than cold solids. A human in the arctic, for example, can survive contact with snow or ice for very much longer than contact with liquid water at the same temperature. Snow, in particular, is a good insulator & taking refuge in a snow hole is a well known (& highly effective) method of avoiding hypothermia. It won't keep you alive forever but it will keep you alive a lot longer than exposure to a cold wind would -- & far, far longer than exposure to cold water would.

2. It was clearly shown that many of the Daleks were in poor condition & took a fairly long time to get their act together (mentally & physically) to attack. It's very likely that the oldest of the Daleks were in the worst condition -- they'd been there longest. It's probable, therefore, that they failed to attack simply because they didn't have time to sort themselves out enough to do so.

3. There were Daleks of many different vintages. Some were new ones; some were old ones. The old ones tended to be inactive (see 2) & that made them less noticeable -- but they were there.

4. Here, again, you're making a false assumption. In this case, you're assuming you know what was going on in Oswin's mind & then saying her behaviour doesn't fit what you've decided she was thinking. You have to start from the behaviour, since that's what you can actually observe, & reason back from that to her state of mind, which you can't actually observe. Her behaviour shows that, although she was trying to deny what had happened to her, she did know it. In short, she didn't accuse the Doctor of lying because she knew he wasn't lying.

5. This seems garbled. I am guessing that you meant "Why did they use chains the Daleks could just break free of?" or something like that. Until the events of the episode, the Daleks in the asylum were low on power (see 2, again) & their restraints had held them.

6. Here, yet again, you're making a false assumption. The Daleks are not & have never been shown to be emotionless, although their emotional makeup is certainly different from ours. You cannot, however, assume that there are no similarities at all. There clearly are similarities. Daleks can -- & quite often do -- get angry. The same is true of humans. Saying "humans do X, therefore Daleks will never do X" is just silly. --78.146.184.7^{talk to me} 13:23, December 8, 2012 (UTC)

Daleks lack of sympathy and pity for others should never be confused with a lack of all emotions. They are an organic life form that evolves and will always develop emotions. Even Cybermen who are supposed to have all emotions suppressed, have shown emotions from time to time. Rasputin Oz ☎ 00:09, December 14, 2012 (UTC)