Talk:The Master (The TV Movie)

Rename

I think we should rename this page to 'The "Bruce" Master', in reference to the body who this iteration of the Master inhabits. This would be consistent with how we tend to name other stolen body Masters.

Alternatively, we could call them 'The Lost Master', since the first Master boxset refers to him as "the Master's lost incarnation" in it's description.

Alternatively, Alternatively, we could call him 'The Movie Master', which is the name Big Finish refer to him as in the behind the scenes of Masterful.

Personally, I'd go for the first option for consistency with the proposed Tremas Master rename, but I'm fine with anything, as long as it's not UnBruce. TheSpaghetOutcast ☎ 09:24, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

I think the Bruce Master is the best and most intuitive option. Unlike with the Fugitive Doctor, who is a fugitive, there's no in-universe justification for Roberts being the Movie Master and I'm definitely against the Lost Master. Jack "BtR" Saxon ☎ 10:11, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

I propose moving him to The UnBruce. This was the first name officially given to this incarnation, way back in 1996. While "Bruce Master" isn't terrible, it's ultimately a fanon name created by clumsily sticking two words together; "The UnBruce", on the other hand, is not only official and 26+ years old, it's also a striking, artfully constructed name that really captures the unheimlich quality of Roberts's character and the way his two performances relate to one another - unlike Ainley's Master, who is rejuvenated and sprightly compared to Tremas, Roberts's Master really does come across as a walking corpse, an uncanny not-Bruce. The name was little-known until recently, but digging up and publicising rare information from official sources is exactly what a wiki like this should be doing. Someone may object to this name on the grounds that it doesn't contain the word "Master", but I really don't see why that should pose a problem; we can just call him "The Master" in articles where he's the only Master mentioned, and "The UnBruce" in articles which discuss multiple Masters. It would be a massive overstep for the wiki to insist on a fandom-made name when an official one is available. PintlessMan ☎ 11:03, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

What's the source? BananaClownMan ☎ 11:08, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

The page's behind the scenes section says, "The Eric Roberts Master was the first Master to be given an official incarnation-specific name, with the film's soundtrack release referring to him as 'The UnBruce'." Jack "BtR" Saxon ☎ 11:10, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

Oh god, no, not this again. No, we're not renaming the page to UnBruce. TheSpaghetOutcast ☎ 11:14, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

That BTS comment should be reworded more neutrally. I am not at all convinced that 'The UnBruce' is intended to be a name for the character in general, rather than a sort of "chapter title" for the specific scene the musical cue illustrates. Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 11:30, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

Agreed. I'm against The UnBruce for just that reason. Jack "BtR" Saxon ☎ 11:34, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

For clarity, it's derived from the ninth track of the soundtrack Doctor Who - TV movie (~23:30) which is titled "Primitive Wiring / The UnBruce". It's called this because it plays connecting two scenes, the one where Grace checks up on the Doctor after removing the wire ("I no longer have a piece of primitive wiring stuck in my chest") and then where Chang Lee and the Master enter the TARDIS ("I am not Bruce. I am merely inside his body.").

Before the argument arises that this quote means he shouldn't be called "Bruce Master", I disagree for three reasons: 1) following the same model as Tremas Master, 2) the most identifiable thing for this incarnation is that he is in Bruce's body, and 3) he uses the body as a guise to pretend to be Bruce. So yes, I do think "Bruce Master" is the best name for him, even if it sounds a little odd. (For the record, I've also heard "Morphant Master" before, and I think the old page might have been some variation on that, but it's not as identifiable nor accurate since the executed Master ingested the morphant and continues to have it as a part of him after he loses Bruce's body.) Chubby Potato ☎ 11:55, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

I'm also against "The UnBruce" but wouldn't oppose "The Bruce Master". FractalDoctor ☎ 11:44, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

Even if "The UnBruce" referred solely to his role within the context of one scene, it would still be an officially sourced name referring to the character within the context of his debut story, and it would still be a better-grounded option for an incarnation name than "The Bruce Master", a fannish confection which has absolutely never been used in any official material. "The UnBruce" and "The Bruce Master" are basically synonyms; we might as well go with the one that's from an official source. That it also happens to be more unique and characterful than the standard fannish name format is just an added bonus. PintlessMan ☎ 12:15, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

I see where you're coming from, but I disagree. If the track had been called "The Man Who Wasn't Bruce", for example, I doubt we'd move this article to that name. Jack "BtR" Saxon ☎ 12:22, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

"Masterful", a source equally valid as a soundtrack, lists the character in credits as "the Movie Master" but clearly we aren't using that either. I strongly oppose "The UnBruce" (as I would "The UnTremas" if that was also a track title). FractalDoctor ☎

Weren't they all credited as "The Master" for Masterful? If memory serves, their names were used internally and on the scripts. Jack "BtR" Saxon ☎ 12:36, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

As per our page on Masterful, The release's behind-the-scenes track reveals the internal names the production used to differentiate the Masters;

- Eric Roberts - "the Movie Master" FractalDoctor ☎

My point simply is that I think a name used internally/behind the scenes is on the same level as a soundtrack title. They're just interpretations that someone involved in production has come up with, and aren't necessarily used or reflected in the finished product - Masterful itself never mentions "the Movie Master", just as the TV Movie never uses the term "the UnBruce".

I feel as though "The Bruce Master" is just a more understandable term and more widely understood name for the incarnation, in the same way "The Saxon Master" is. And if we want to keep some consistency, "The ____ Master" is a good format to follow where possible IMO. We have "The Tremas Master", "The Reborn Master", "The Spy Master", "The War Master", etc. so "The Bruce Master" fits so much better and follows the pattern we have mostly established. FractalDoctor ☎

Yeah, I'm pretty sure I was the one who added that to that page. It's a minor point, but Roberts wasn't credited as the Movie Master. It was just an internal name which I agree that there isn't currently a strong case for. Jack "BtR" Saxon ☎ 12:55, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

If there were a track titled "The Man Who Wasn't Bruce", we probably wouldn't use it for the character's page because it's long-winded and sounds more like a casual conversational description than a name (though this is not necessarily a dealbreaker); in any case, "The UnBruce" doesn't have these problems. "Movie Master" is more official and defensible than "Bruce Master", but we're probably not going to use it because it's an out-of-universe description illegible within a fictional setting; "The UnBruce" does not have this problem. (Besides which, it's somewhat disingenuous to claim that he's called "the Movie Master" based on a Big Finish BTS track, since that's quoting an audio release where the interviewee could just as easily be saying "the movie Master".) If it turned out that "The UnTremas" had been used in an official Keeper of Traken soundtrack from 1981, then we would have to seriously consider calling the character that, though it would have the minor drawback that "Tremas" itself is not immediately recognisable as a name, and so the intended uncanny inversion of the "Un" prefix wouldn't read well, especially as it doesn't match Ainley's performance; again, "The UnBruce" doesn't have these problems. But I'm not sure why we're discussing hypothetical names from non-existent soundtracks. As for the consistency argument, I don't see why the wiki should get to flatten the variety of Master names coined over decades into a single format. It's not as if Missy being called "Missy" rather than "the Missy Master", or Koschei not being called "the Koschei Master", causes anyone severe distress or confusion. PintlessMan ☎ 13:01, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

At risk of going in circles, I'll simply respond to this and tap out of the debate.

>It's not as if Missy being called "Missy" rather than "the Missy Master", or Koschei not being called "the Koschei Master", causes anyone severe distress or confusion. The difference here is that Missy is used as standard and standalone in-universe on many occasions. The UnBruce is not. Also >I don't see why the wiki should get to flatten the variety of Master names coined over decades into a single format. Note how I said we have 'mostly' adopted this practice, and there are more examples of this than not in general. (I dare say if Missy hadn't been given her name in-universe, we would likely adopt "The Female Master"). Anyway, I think "The Master (The TV Movie)" is fine as it is if no agreement is ultimately reached and this goes in circles. I strongly oppose The Unbruce, as said earlier. FractalDoctor ☎ 13:13, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

I think people are overlooking the fact that "The UnBruce" isn't just some stray bit of neutral description applied to the character; it's recognisably a new variant of the name - a word which had never been used in human history, and which was coined, either by Debney or someone else involved with this release, to refer specifically to this version of the Master. PintlessMan ☎ 13:22, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

The Master took the body of pre-existing person Tremas. We refer to him as The Tremas Master. The Master took the body of pre-existing person Bruce. We should refer to him as The Bruce Master.FractalDoctor ☎ 13:58, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

Outcast here, stepping in for a moment to tell you the above comment was posted by FractalDoctor ☎. I guess they can edit this out later. TheSpaghetOutcast ☎ 13:44, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

I honestly don't think the Soundtrack title "UnBruce" is actually intended to be a name for this Master - I think it's supposed to be the title for the scene in which he's talking to Lee. You'd need to prove that they actually intended this to be the actual name of the character - which you can't, because they clearly didn't, and you know this. You're just having a laugh, which is fine, I get it. Meanwhile, everyone else supports 'The "Bruce" Master', which is a superior name for the thread in literally every manner. TheSpaghetOutcast ☎ 13:41, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

In addition to TheSpaghetOutcast's excellent point, the composer is also not an authorial voice on the matter - certainly not one who has been since backed up by anyone else in the production to further cement the name 'UnBruce'. It definitely feels like the name of a track, and a reference to an event/happening, rather than a definitive statement to say "this is the name of the character." FractalDoctor ☎ 13:58, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

I don't think the analogy to "Tremas Master" holds much water, since "Tremas Master" is itself a fandom name that the wiki has to fall back on because there's nothing even resembling an official one; if someone were to unearth an official score from the 1980s with a track called something like "The Anti-Tremas" or "The Nega-Tremas" - something that's at least recognisably a name variant coined for the character, rather than a general description like "The New Master" or "Not Nyssa's Dad" - then I would definitely also support using that over the fan name. As a minor point, I also want to mention that the name "The UnBruce" also appeared in The 50th Anniversary Collection. PintlessMan ☎ 14:14, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

I like The Master (The TV Movie). Unlike cases such as The Master (Terror of the Autons) where a user might have to click through to Terror of the Autons to remind them whether that was a Pertwee-era or Baker-era story, "The TV Movie" is completely unambiguous! Besides maybe Roberts' last name, "The TV Movie" is by far the most closely associated term for this character, as attested by the "Movie Master" discussion above; this makes it the perfect dab term, and changing it would be a regression in clarity and usability. In the rare cases where this incarnation needs to be disambiguated from other incarnations in-text, such as multi-Master stories, we can use ad-hoc disambiguation as each story demands; but I don't think that needs to be reflected in the actual title of the page, which is meant to indicate the official name of the character. If for some reason we still decide this perfect dab term is unacceptable, I prefer "Not Bruce Master" and "The UnBruce" to "Bruce Master", in that order, given their conformity to dialogue (in the first case) and official promotional material (in the latter). – n8 (☎) 14:41, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

They called the track "UnBruce" in the 50th collection because that's the name of the track? I don't see how that even is relevant or backs up any sort of point? TheSpaghetOutcast ☎ 15:51, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

It's a much more widely distributed release than the original promo CD, and it still includes the name "The UnBruce", considerably increasing the number of consumers who will have encountered it. As I said, a minor point. PintlessMan ☎ 16:07, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

This page should be renamed to 'Bruce' Master because it is the most intuitive, in-universe-rooted name and it is well known within the fandom. The motion to use 'The UnBruce' is perhaps one of the most aggravating naming proposals I've seen thus far. 'Bruce' Master is (1) derived from an in-universe name (the body that the Master possesses is named "Bruce"), (2) is in alignment with 'Tremas' Master, and (3) is thoroughly acknowledged within fandom. The 'Bruce' Master is a very straightforward name --at worst it just sounds clunky. Lord knows that if Bruce's name was two syllables we probably wouldn't be having this argument, but I digress. The 'Lost' Master is unacceptable, it is rooted not in dialogue from the story but it is more importantly very vague. The 'Movie' Master is less egregious in that it is an actual name provided to the character in a BTS featurette, but it is rather obviously rooted in an out-of-universe notion. It is also somewhat vague, as the 'Tipple' Master similarly premiered in a movie --but I don't think many would be confused along those lines. The 'UnBruce' Master feels to me as if it's a name purposefully designed to NOT give this page a non-story name. Yes, it is rooted in a music track ("The UnBruce") --so it has some official basis. But Eric Roberts' performance in the TV Movie was never referenced as "the UnBruce". He's referenced as playing Bruce and as playing the Master. "The UnBruce" is a title for a song and is meant to describe a sequence, as we've seen above. This Master possessing the human body of Bruce is relevant in essentially every story he has shown up in, as his body 'not lasting long' is kind of a good part of his schtick.

Furthermore, I want to reiterate that the opposition to The UnBruce should not be weaponised as a means of preventing the move to Bruce Master. Criticism of 'the UnBruce' should not be considered as support of 'The Master (The TV Movie)'. Sorry if this is a little ramble-y, have to head out and didn't have much time to think this out --I thought this wouldn't happen until after 'Tremas' Master passed to be honest. NoNotTheMemes ☎ 16:09, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

I wholeheartedly support The Bruce Master because it's, well, intuitive. He's the Master who inhabited Bruce. If I were a wiki reader and stumbled upon his page, I'd go "oh, whys he called the Bruce Master?", read the description and see he inhabited Bruce, and go "oh, that makes sense. Like Tremas". Cousin Ettolrhc ☎ 16:29, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

i wanted to voice my opinion here as well, and I fully agree with n8 on this. I think The Master (The TV Movie) is by far the best option as a page title. I am of the opinion that both Bruce Master and UnBruce Master (which frankly, are to me equally possible, and have the same amount of backing behind them) aren’t quite right for the job. Neither are used in universe, neither are very intuitive, and both have some aspect of speculation tied to them.

While I get the drive to want descriptive title to fit all incarnations of the Master, I truly think deciding on a definitive name for an incarnation is outside of the scope of this wiki, and as it stand, I can not think of a clearer name than the one we currently have. Story dabs are clear, concise, and accurate, and especially for something such as the TV Movie.

if we truly have to pick, I also think that “Not Bruce” and “UnBruce” are both valid option, and frankly some I would prefer to “Bruce Master”, but I still hope that at least for the name of this page, we can stick to story dab. Liria10 ☎ 15:23, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

I wouldn't have a problem with this page staying where it is, but if we're going to disambiguate him from his other incarnations by calling him "the Bruce Master" anyway (see Day of the Master), I feel it might as well move to that title. Jack "BtR" Saxon ☎ 15:27, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

Jack, that's definitely the most common argument for renaming incarnation pages – but this is exactly why pipeswitches were built in the first place. Some pages may pipeswitch The Doctor (Alien Bodies) to the Doctor's final incarnation. Is that an argument for moving the page to The Doctor's final incarnation? No, not at all! It's an argument for pipeswitching as necessary so terms are used in a way that makes sense in context. In the rare context where it's important to distinguish between incarnations, it's perfectly fine to disambiguate in-text however necessary.

But as Liria says, the name of the page itself should be the character's official name, the name best known and used by fans and behind the scenes, the name most likely to be searched for. Unfortunately the wiki's standards mean we can't use the best option (author name), so we're left with "Movie Master", and The Master (The TV Movie) is the title that best achieves this.

As a wiki our role is meant to be descriptive, not prescriptive. If there is no consensus name in fandom or behind-the-scenes for an incarnation, it is not our place to just make one up. – n8 (☎) 15:48, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

By that logic, I would take issue with "The Tremas Master" as I've never seen that term beyond this Wiki, not even on places like Tumblr. But hey. I guess he gets a pass somehow, even though him being Tremas is only slightly relevant in one story beyond The Keeper of Traken.FractalDoctor ☎ 18:55, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

Yes, I do take issue with "The Tremas Master". – n8 (☎) 19:07, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

Neutral on "Bruce Master" v "The Master (The TV Movie)" v "Movie Master". Strongly against "UnBruce". While I personally would like to use more of the paratext (like soundtracks) to guide our naming conventions and suchlike, it's against the policies of this wiki. This is no more official than any of the other options that have been floated per our policies, and it violates our current naming conventions. Najawin ☎ 19:21, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

I forgot to mention it here, but to address the wider issue at hand in order to have a consistent naming scheme for the Master both on pages and their titles, regardless of what those names actually are, I'd like to invite more people who have discussed here to Talk:The Master#How to refer to each incarnation of the Master. This was originally going to be a post on this page, but it turned into a more general topic. Because the different ways to approach naming Roberts' Master seems the most contentious, it will probably be relevant here. Chubby Potato ☎ 21:22, 15 January 2023 (UTC)