Forum:Etc. vs et al.

Index → The Panopticon → Etc. vs et al.

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Proposal

Policy currently says,

"[It is sometimes] impossible to cite all the stories that could be used as sources for a particular statement: how many stories could back up the claim that "the Doctor's TARDIS was blue"? In such cases, use three or four sources, preferably from different mediums if available, followed by "etc.". It is preferable not to use "et al.", as the phrase refers, strictly speaking, to animate rather than inanimate subjects."Tardis:Citation

Unfortunately, this is bad advice!

"Etc." is short for the Latin et cetera, which Wikipedia translates roughly as "and the rest of such things". As countless grammar guides across the internet will advise, et cetera should be used only when the remainder of the list can easily be understood or is already known. Grammarly explains (emphasis mine),

"Correct: The children should bring paper, pencils, scissors, etc. (You can discern the category from the examples.)

Incorrect: The children should bring crayons, blankets, birth certificates, etc. (The class is not clear. Unless you previously state the connection between the items and the rest of the list is easily imaginable, you can’t use etc.)"[1]

I think those examples make it clear that our use of "etc." in parenthetical citations is incorrect in the vast, vast majority of cases. Here's one example from The Doctor:

Some events still provided painful reminders of his role in the Time War. (TV: The Rings of Akhaten, The Time of the Doctor, etc.)

Is the rest of the list "easily imaginable"? Using only the two items presented, can you extrapolate the rest? I can't, and I don't expect that most of our readers can, either. This is incorrect usage.

Thankfully, there's an easy alternative to fix the issue: "et al.", which means "others forming some group". Many grammar guides say that "et al." should only be used for lists of people, since this is common style, but there's actually no such restriction in the full Latin phrase, which can be either animate (et alii; et aliae) and inanimate (et alia). The important difference between et cetera and et alia is that the latter has no "easily imaginable" requirement. As Najawin once summarized,

""Et cetera" is closer to "and so on", but it's non trivial to figure out what the other sources in question are when you have a list, especially when the DWU is as varied as it is. "Et al" allows us to be clear that there are others involved but you might not be able to figure out what they are from context."Najawin

It's for this reason that, despite T:CITE specifically saying never to use "et al." in our citations, the wiki uses it much more than "etc."! For instance, on The Doctor "et al." is used 15 times whereas "etc." is used only 5 times. Rather than leaving our citation system an inconsistent hodge-podge, we should reverse T:CITE's recommendations and make "et al." the official standard across the wiki. – n8 (☎) 22:05, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

Discussion

I agree with this proposl. Cousin Ettolrahc ☎ 06:19, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

I, too, agree with this proposal, but does et. al incorporate etc.; i.e. can et. al be used in cases where the rest of the list is easily extrapolated from context? Aquanafrahudy 📢 🖊️ 07:20, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

I disagree with this proposal. I understand your reasoning about why "etc" is not the best fit, but I do not understand why you think et al. is the better alternative. We do not speak Latin, we speak English, and in English, et al. denotes lists of people. It seems misguided to replace one slightly wrong term with a somewhat more wrong term.

The etymology of a term or phrase isn't always the most relevant when these terms/phrases grow and evolve, take on new meanings or lose old ones.

Also, your example of the usage of etc/et al. on the Doctor is frankly meaningless. Although technically Tardis:Citation states that "etc" is correct, it has long been held that "et al." was correct, and there was a forum thread before the forums were kaput that was in near unanimous agreement that etc was better! It just so happens that a policy technically already agreed with the consensus, which wasn't known to us at the time.

"Et al. comes from the Latin phrase meaning “and others.” It is usually styled with a period, but you will occasionally see et al as well.

Et al. typically stands in for two or more names, especially in bibliographical information."Merriam Webster

While "etc" may not necessarily be that helpful in when trying to list off a bunch of unrelated sources to a statement, stitching et al. on instead, in modern usage, implies that the sources are people. But in many other cases, etc is the correct term.

The Doctor's TARDIS was a time machine. (TV: An Unearthly Child ^[+]Loading...["An Unearthly Child (TV story)"], Rose ^[+]Loading...["Rose (TV story)"], etc.)

See what I mean?

EPSILON^🔎 |📯|📂|📦|📝

14:26, 9 November 2023 (UTC)