Talk:Pre-universe

Secrets of the Pre-Universe

My apologies for bumping this ahead of the other topics, but I am shocked that it hasn't already been covered here. It has always intrigued me that despite The Doctor's sheer close-mindedness at the notion that something could have existed before the time of the Time Lords (possibly the Big Bang?), we also found out in The Sarah Jane Adventures episodes Secrets of the Stars, Parts 1 and 2, that before the laws of physics in the modern universe existed, in our reality, that a universe existed where the laws of physics, if they even existed then, were contravened by the laws of astrology. It is also entirely possible these two universes, the one in which astrology functions and the one in which The Beast was bound by the Disciples of the Light may in fact be one and the same. I am not saying that it is, but simply that it is possible, and the conjecture of a possible link could be included on the page. --Blast Vortex ☎ 22:00, June 15, 2017 (UTC)

1oth Doctor; 3.2 Removed fanon

This sentence raised an eyebrow for me:
"whereas by his tenth it would almost be an article of religious faith to him that such a universe could not have existed."
Perhaps I'm remembering this episode wrong, but didn't the Doctor view the existence of Pre-Universe with the utmost disbelief, rather than the lack of existence? -Revitalizer ☎ 01:39, January 27, 2013 (UTC)

Sorry to be blunt, but you are remembering the episode wrong. He refused to believe that there was such a thing. He didn't acknowledge it's existence, as it went against all his beliefs. It was only afterwards, I think, that he acknowledged that there's still big secrets that he hadn't yet found, reality's in flux. Correct me if I'm wrong, though; I usually am. SmallerOnTheOutside ☎ 01:51, January 27, 2013 (UTC)

Well that's what I'm saying. /: I think my problem is that I initially interpreted that sentence as stating that the Doctor felt that it was merely faith to not to believe in Pre-Universe (and that corrected, the "not" should be omitted). On second reading, I can see that it was meant to say that the Doctor personally holds the view with the fervor of religious faith that Pre-Universe doesn't exist. I don't think my initial interpretation is unreasonable, which makes me think this is much fuzzier than it needs to be (especially given that, read as I read it, it states the exact opposite of how its meant to be read). -Revitalizer ☎ 02:10, January 27, 2013 (UTC)

"Donut-shaped stars": in 2001 it was shown that donut-shaped stars can exist in universes with five or more dimensions (see the "Black ring" solution here: http://arxiv.org/abs/hep-th/0110260 -- the article is talking about something analogous to a black hole but Birkhoff's theorem says such a solution should work for stars as well)

Christmas on a Rational Planet

I believe that the current edit is incorrect. If I recall correctly, the novel doesn't say that the universe inhabited by the Old Ones wasn't destroyed by Rassilon, resulting in the current universe; in both that novel and Cat's Cradle: Time Crucible, it's stated that the current universe (the one that came after the Old Ones' universe and was created in the Big Bang) used to be governed by magic and superstition, but Rassilon changed it so that it would be governed by science and reason instead. I advise undoing the current edit and moving the information to the distant past page. Doug86 ☎ 00:11, January 5, 2016 (UTC)

"For there was Time before this; and there was Being before this; and there was Space before this. And there were Things Damned in that place, and there were Things Remarkable."      
The Watchmakers, being rational monsters, never understood that passage properly. They take it all very literally, these days. They think it means that there was another universe before this one, and that it was destroyed in the Big Bang. Ask the Doctor, and thatʼs what heʼll tell you. Naturellement, it isnʼt true. The ʻSpace before thisʼ was just this universe, before the Watchmakers sucked all of the glamour and the strangeness from its bones. Ohh, yes, there were those of the old time who escaped. A handful of baby godlings and ʻgreat intelligencesʼ... but they were such weak, unimaginative creatures.

Christmas on a Rational Planet Pg.198

TheChampionOfTime ☎ 01:47, January 5, 2016 (UTC)

Could the TARDIS go to the pre-universe?

Is there any reason why the Doctor couldn't use his TARDIS to go to this realm? --Purple Hoppers ☎ 01:11, August 29, 2016 (UTC)

What does that have to do w it h t he editing of this page? NightmareofEden ☎ 19:23, November 18, 2020 (UTC)

Renaming?

So... is this page getting renamed or not? A bit odd that a renaming tag exists on the page and yet nothing's been discussed about it. If "time before time" is an established name, and "pre-universe" isn't, shouldn't we just change the name? Rather than just leaving two great big tags as the first things one sees upon opening the page. Sorry to be impatient, but it bugs me a lot.CyberFoundries900 ☎ 21:15, October 15, 2020 (UTC)

Is “time before time” an established name? Established where? NightmareofEden ☎ 19:19, November 18, 2020 (UTC)

The only name I know that I can verify is "before time", from Brenda's B&B.

Epsilon 📯 📂

19:24, November 18, 2020 (UTC)

Cobweb and Ivory uses "Time before time", but it's within the context of someone telling a stylized story, so this isn't necessarily reliable. Najawin ☎ 19:37, November 18, 2020 (UTC)

PROSE: Contributors uses the name "Protoverse".

Epsilon📯 📂

22:05, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

I actually think the real issue here is, as I explained in the {{Cleanup}} tag, that this page is about two things at once:

Since the vast majority of sources describes the "time before time" and Dark Times as the same thing, couldn't we refocus this page on the actual concept of a universe before N-Space, and briefly mention that a lot of what the Time Lords thought they knew about the pre-universe was actually about the Dark Times/Time Before Time?Cleanup tag

About which: the recent Faction Paradox release Call Me Ishmael has a reference to what is clearly the pre-Anchoring "Time Before Time" as often used in the series, under the name of Dark Ages. Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 22:38, 11 July 2021 (UTC)