Forum:Tags on talk pages
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One thing I've noticed is that the talk page tag isn't very noticable any more. It used to be bright orange, so very noticeable, but now it's just plain, and doesn't really stand out. I mean, have a look at Talk:The Silence. There's already theories starting there when they should be going in the Howling. Can we edit the talk page tag so that it stands out more?
Ps... also while I'm here, can we change the wiki's background? It's passed April 23rd... so can we change it to something new? Thanks. --The Thirteenth Doctor 16:11, April 25, 2011 (UTC)
- The colour is not changing, all we can do is make it like all other top of the page banners (e.g. spoiler etc). I'll try and do that soon, if CzechOut is not by. As for the wiki back ground, I'll chnage it a light grey colour, and then we can decide to chnage it later if we want. Mini-mitch\talk 16:20, April 25, 2011 (UTC)
- I want to bring this up again. The tags obviously aren't working. Mini-mitch, I've seen you, and other admins too, constantly asking people to take their discussions from talk pages to the Howling, and it must start to get really frustrating for you. Surely there is something else we can do to make it easier? I mean, you said the colour isn't changing, but why not? What's wrong with putting it back to being orange? It's not as though it's a main part of the wiki, the part that's supposed to look good. It's a talk page. It's going to be messy most of the time. --The Thirteenth Doctor 10:37, May 8, 2011 (UTC)
- The colour of the tag is absolutely irrelevant to whether people obey it. This tag has been multiple colours and widths. It's had pictures and it's gone with just text. There have been times in the past when this tag has been placed multiple times on the same page, and yet people still talk about precisely what they want to talk about. People are going to use talk pages occasionally for discussing the subject, rather than the editing of the subject. It just happens. It happens even on wikipedia, where editors tend to be more knowledgeable about talk pages. Remember, wikia is different from wikipedia in that talk pages are not standard features. You have to request that talk pages be enabled. Therefore, many editors don't quite "get" the purpose of talk pages. Indeed, talk pages on wikia replace comment bubbles, which are for talking about the merits of the subject, rather than how to edit the article. My point is, this is a battle we will never completely win. We should put one message at the top of a troublesome page, and be done with it. The effort in the past to put this message on every single problem section was wholly redundant. There is no reason that talk pages should look ugly, cluttered up by these messages, just because it's easier to type a template call than to type out a real messages. A nicely-worded unique message is far more effective at stopping this kind of thing that just putting a template in the middle of the page.
czechout<staff /> ☎ ✍ 15:03:15 Thu 12 May 2011
- The colour of the tag is absolutely irrelevant to whether people obey it. This tag has been multiple colours and widths. It's had pictures and it's gone with just text. There have been times in the past when this tag has been placed multiple times on the same page, and yet people still talk about precisely what they want to talk about. People are going to use talk pages occasionally for discussing the subject, rather than the editing of the subject. It just happens. It happens even on wikipedia, where editors tend to be more knowledgeable about talk pages. Remember, wikia is different from wikipedia in that talk pages are not standard features. You have to request that talk pages be enabled. Therefore, many editors don't quite "get" the purpose of talk pages. Indeed, talk pages on wikia replace comment bubbles, which are for talking about the merits of the subject, rather than how to edit the article. My point is, this is a battle we will never completely win. We should put one message at the top of a troublesome page, and be done with it. The effort in the past to put this message on every single problem section was wholly redundant. There is no reason that talk pages should look ugly, cluttered up by these messages, just because it's easier to type a template call than to type out a real messages. A nicely-worded unique message is far more effective at stopping this kind of thing that just putting a template in the middle of the page.
- I want to bring this up again. The tags obviously aren't working. Mini-mitch, I've seen you, and other admins too, constantly asking people to take their discussions from talk pages to the Howling, and it must start to get really frustrating for you. Surely there is something else we can do to make it easier? I mean, you said the colour isn't changing, but why not? What's wrong with putting it back to being orange? It's not as though it's a main part of the wiki, the part that's supposed to look good. It's a talk page. It's going to be messy most of the time. --The Thirteenth Doctor 10:37, May 8, 2011 (UTC)
Placement on page[[edit source]]
Looking back over my revision notes at {{Talk Page}}, I remember now what the issue was with it. It's been used historically as a top-page banner and a sectional note. Because it's been used at the sectional level, I originally converted it to the new layout as a sectional note. My initial revision is here, which I think works better on pages like Talk:Utopia (TV story) and talk:Rassilon, where it's right in the middle of the page. If, however, we are determined that it should be used only at the top of talk pages, as at talk:The Doctor, then I think the current full-width approach works. Thing is, I do think we need to decide how it's going to be used in order to determine the best design.
Were I to advocate one over the other, I'd say go for the most unobtrusive design, and go for the smaller note, but to always place it on the top of the page from this point forward. As discussed above, people don't really pay these things that much heed. The important thing is to have it on the page in a consistent place so that you can refer to it with the language, "Please note the message on the top left of this page." But I don't care that much one way or the other. I just want it used only once, and at the top of the page. That part at least, can be very easily enforced by bot.
czechout<staff /> ☎ ✍ 15:49:08 Thu 12 May 2011
- The problem was with the old tag, was it was too small, and User did not notice it. It was only after The Impossible Astronaut aired, and the Little girl from the episode's talk page became full of speculation that I made it bigger. This only slightly helped. I think that the font should be in the center of the banner, and the banner made about half the width of the page and placed in the center. If any speculation creeps onto these talk pages, we will simply have to removed them and say to the User "I am sorry I had to remove your contribution from the talk page, please may you use the Howling to discuss speculation and rumours." (Could this even been a banner for a talk page, i.e like the vandalism one?) Mini-mitch\talk 15:19, May 13, 2011 (UTC)
- I agree, I think we should write into a relevant policy/note it within the banner speculation and such that is outside the that of the article's talk page will be deleted. That way the tag more becomes a notice of what will happen if/when speculation creeps in.
- I think it should be on the top of the page and never used as just a sectional thing, so as an alert rather than a warning which is what what it's used as a sectional element it appears.
- I also think we should add the tag by default to all new TV series articles (both stories and major characters) just to preempt people's discussions and to stop "Is X character the Rani?". --Tangerineduel / talk 15:33, May 13, 2011 (UTC)
- Well the reason that the lettering is off-center is because it was given a style id of a top-page banner, which it didn't have in my original concept. Pagetop banners all leave space for a 200px picture. If we put a picture in there, it'd look fine. But I didn't do that at the time because, again, I didn't know whether we were going for sectional or top-of-page use. I definitely don't like mini-mitch's idea of essentially returning this banner to the ugly, center-of-page, half-width jobby that it was before. For stylistic consistency it should either look like {{real world}} or {{section cleanup}}. I'm fine, either way, but function must precede form; we must decide what we're doing before we can decide how.
- Additionally, I vigorously dispute MM's assertion that size, location, or wording matters particularly with this message. That's why I say it should be there on the page so we can refer to it, but it might as well match everything else on the site. Again, I don't think new editors are maliciously flaunting this rule. It's just that our rule is frankly weird for Wikia wikis. Again, most Wikis don't have talk pages, and those that do, don't have rules against this kinda posting. We're using wikipedia rules for talk pages, and wikia's mostly not like that.
czechout<staff /> ☎ ✍ 23:18:08 Fri 13 May 2011
- Additionally, I vigorously dispute MM's assertion that size, location, or wording matters particularly with this message. That's why I say it should be there on the page so we can refer to it, but it might as well match everything else on the site. Again, I don't think new editors are maliciously flaunting this rule. It's just that our rule is frankly weird for Wikia wikis. Again, most Wikis don't have talk pages, and those that do, don't have rules against this kinda posting. We're using wikipedia rules for talk pages, and wikia's mostly not like that.
- Should we just let the talk pages go free for all or turn them off all together? I'm not really in favour of either of those options.
- The way we handle talk pages isn't any more weird than other choices we've made here, and unlike a lot of wikis we've got lot of stuff that's being consistently released with plenty of people wanting to jump in and claim that every female is the Rani.
- If this notice is the first thing added to all talk pages that are likely to be active, then it'd be the first thing people see, as long as it says "discuss your 'which one is the Rani' theories in the Howling or it'll get deleted" eventually people will get the message when their edits are rolled back the umpteenth for the time. --Tangerineduel / talk 14:34, May 14, 2011 (UTC)
- We need the talk page, so we can't turn them of. The banner should be the first thing place on a talk page, and it should be placed at the top of a page like any other banner, not like the section stub. The banner is very useful once it's in place and at the top of the page. A prime example of this, I believe is the talk page for The Doctor's Wife, which I though would be overflowing with speculation and rumours; which I believe is thanks to the banner is not.
- If we were to go 'free for all', which i don't think we should; what would become of the Howling? Do we leave it, knowing that people may never use it? Or do we delete it? Do we incorporate it as a new tab on page like the talk page, so all speculation and rumours regarding an episode can be seen by a single click on a tab? Mini-mitch\talk 14:42, May 14, 2011 (UTC)
- I think I've been slightly misunderstood here. I'm not at all advocating that we should turn off talk pages. I was simply trying to point out that, though we're using talk pages in the same way as Wikipedia, Wookieepedia and Memory Alpha, some of the biggest wiki communities out there, we're not using the Wikia default. Thus, when we get editors who primarily work on other Wikia wikis, we're quite likely to encounter people who've never used a talk page at all, and who are used to "kibbitzing" through the default comment system.
- I would be unequivocally opposed to abandoning the current talk page system.
- I'm just arguing for a little understanding of why some editors use talk pages the way they do. I just think we should put {{Talk Page}} at the top of the page, and gently inform the disobedient how we do things on this wiki. I like TD's language, agove, that it should be used as "an alert, not a warning". For this reason, I'm open to changes in the language of the message, but I don't think it should be toughened up. Most of the people who use talk pages improperly aren't doing so out of malice. We don't want to make them so afraid of writing something on a talk page that they just don't use it at all. I think it's far better for them to use talk pages incorrectly than not at all.
- Top of the page, yes. Thinking about it; if a User put speculation on a talk page, we can easily ask them to move their discussion into the Howling, but we should never deleted their post, it should just stay there, and maybe a comment about asking them to move to the Howling to continue the discussion. I myself, am guilty of removing speculation, but I now think it would be better and kinder to point Users towards the Howling, instead of expecting them to know to go there and deleting their posts. Mini-mitch\talk 17:07, May 14, 2011 (UTC)
- Top of the page only, yes.
- And yes definitely explaining in a friendly way is better as has been noted we can sometimes be a little abrupt in our roles as admins. As with Mini-mitch I think I've been guilty also of removing a speculative discussion or two. --Tangerineduel / talk 17:48, May 14, 2011 (UTC)
- Just to follow up on another aspect you've requested, TD, I've written to Central to get them to enable Extension:PageNotice which will allow us to simply place this note on every page in the Talk: namespace. That way, we'll not have to do a thing. It'll just always be there. (I also want this for some other namespaces, like Video:, where we need to give specific, to use your wonderful word, alerts. )
czechout<staff /> ☎ ✍ 20:34:00 Sat 14 May 2011- So here's the first attempt at redesigning this thing as a true page-top. Note that I've changed the language to focus on incivility as well as off-topic discussions. Basically, this now draws attention to our discussion policy, which didn't exist at the time this template was first created.
czechout<staff /> ☎ ✍ 22:40:37 Sat 14 May 2011
- So here's the first attempt at redesigning this thing as a true page-top. Note that I've changed the language to focus on incivility as well as off-topic discussions. Basically, this now draws attention to our discussion policy, which didn't exist at the time this template was first created.
- Just to keep you updated on progress with Wikia Support, I've gotten confirmation that they've received my request and an estimate of two business days before detailed response. I think it's pretty safe to say, though, that we'll soon be able to define messages that always appear at the top of pages within a particular namespace.
czechout<staff /> ☎ ✍ 13:25:28 Sun 15 May 2011- Wikie have denied the request for this extension and recommended "covnentions and tools that are already in use". That means we have to create our own, individualized solution through the use of java, essentially. So it may take a little longer to get a standard message to appear, and the change won't be terribly user friendly.
czechout<staff /> ☎ ✍ 17:35:25 Mon 16 May 2011
- Wikie have denied the request for this extension and recommended "covnentions and tools that are already in use". That means we have to create our own, individualized solution through the use of java, essentially. So it may take a little longer to get a standard message to appear, and the change won't be terribly user friendly.
- Just to keep you updated on progress with Wikia Support, I've gotten confirmation that they've received my request and an estimate of two business days before detailed response. I think it's pretty safe to say, though, that we'll soon be able to define messages that always appear at the top of pages within a particular namespace.
- It doesn't need to be on every talk page ever, it just needs to be on the key character/concept pages for the recently broadcast stories, we could just mandate that when we create pages for those things we put the talk page on the top.
- I know that's not user friendly, but rather than trying to program around it or end up with something which isn't user friendly. It will just be one of those things we have to do manually like protecting the page, chucking the protect tag on and those sorts of things. --Tangerineduel / talk 15:27, May 20, 2011 (UTC)
- The banner, in my view anyway, is something that needs to be on every talk page and not just high traffic page and television stories. Take the talk page for "Goth"; it's not a high traffic page and yet someone added speculation to the talk page, you yourself Tangerineduel told them to go to the Howling. It would be much easier for everyone if the banners were on all' the talk pages and not just some. Key characters and concepts may become unkey in time, and therefore may not need the banner at the top of the page? Would you remove it? Probably not. So it would easier for us to have them on ever talk page. Mini-mitch\talk 16:24, May 20, 2011 (UTC)
