Howling:How much history is gone?

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The end of the universe is appearing as cracks in the universe and sucking people, events, etc. out of history, so they've never existed, and only time-travelers remember them.

The Doctor explicitly suggests that this is why Amy doesn't remember the Daleks (she wasn't a time-traveler yet).

That probably also explains why nobody in van Statten's bunker knew about the Daleks. And Zoe Heriot, and Hex, and... actually, probably half the characters from every story that took place in the 2010s-2050s or so (and even 2164--sure, those people did have bigger things to deal with than history lessons about the 21st century, but you'd think knowledge of a prior Dalek invasion would be the one bit of history they did remember).

The Doctor also mentions the Cyberking in the middle of London in the 19th century that nobody remembers.

So, what else is Moffat erasing? It almost sounds like he's planning on undoing the entire RTD era. (Even if the Dalek invasion never happened, the people in Fear Her who thought the old lady was crazy for believing in aliens should have known about all of the events that we've been told everyone saw, from Aliens of London to The End of Time.)

But I don't think he'd go that far--unless he went a lot farther, and undid all of the differences between the Whoniverse and our universe (as of 26 June 2010). Which could be interesting, but imagine how hard it'd be to write the show if it took place in the real world instead of a slightly different one. Especially since the real world has a TV show called Doctor Who. (Then again, remember Remembrance of the Daleks' "... an adventure in the new science fiction series Doc--"?) --Falcotron 10:29, May 3, 2010 (UTC)

Interesting theory falcotron but I don't think he will undo any even remotely significant part of the RTD era as if he did then the eleventh doctor would probably not be around. Furthermore the whole journey's end dalek invasion of earth thing isn't really a plothole as they never make any mention about not knowing of the Daleks before they invaded in Dalek invasion of earth, plus the Daleks also take over the earth using plague missiles rather than a full scale fight where people would recognise them before they invaded. The whole van statten thing is a plothole, possibly the biggest plothole of all time in doctor who, except for the whole year that never was coinciding with the reality bomb, which I am amazed has never been a topic of discussion on the howling. Also I think that Amy forgetting the Daleks will be a temporary thing, as if you think adeliade from waters of mars knew about the whole moving of the earth and called the daleks by name and she wasn't a time traveller at that point. Though your still right about it being weird zoe doesent know of the daleks but that was always a plothole because of the daleks invasion of earth, so i dont think steven moffat will adress it, if you think about it it is wierd that the doctor didn't know about the moving of the earth before stolen earth considering the amount of times he travels into the future you would think he would remembering reading that his greatest enemies stole the earth.- Winehousefan 22:56 May 7,2010[UTC]

Of course the 11th Doctor would still be around. Time travelers (like the 10th Doctor) still lived through, and remember, the unwritten events, so he still went through all of that and still regenerated.

As I said, I don't think Moff will go that far. But it's not because he couldn't make it work; it's because it would be a massive cheat to the fans to Dallas-out 5 years of the show like that (and he's not only a better writer than that, he himself is one of those fans).

But on further thought, I now suspect he's actually unwriting the minimal amount necessary to make alien invasions and monster attacks no longer common knowledge. (Maybe even from the classic show, except that I think he'll just ignore Nessie in the Thames.) If he's not unwriting _any_ history, why emphasize the line "History can be unwritten!"?) I just posted my reasons for this in another thread, so I won't repeat them here.

As for Zoe, it's unclear exactly when she's from, but it's definitely 21st century, which means long before Dalek Invasion of Earth. So, removing Journey's End will remove that plot hole. And the same for all those other 21st century characters from the series, novels, and BFAs.

And you're right about the Doctor, but that plot hole actually gets erased too. He's a time traveler, but he's reading the history books written by non-time travelers, which don't mention the invasion. It probably _is_ in UNIT's files, but I suspect he pointedly avoids reading those to avoid "spoilers". (Actually, has he ever worked with UNIT far enough in the future for that to matter anyway?)

The Year That Never Was isn't not a problem, because it was already unwritten before Journey's End happened. The two timelines exist side by side. Sure, the Doctor lived through that year twice, once in each timeline, but he's a time traveler, so he can do that. This _does_ require something like my metatime framework for time travel, because one timeline has to be "meta-before" the other, but with it, that's not a problem. (Of course if the Master had won, he'd suddenly find the Earth had been stolen out from underneath him, and _he'd_ have to go face down the Daleks. That could make an interesting what-if audio story....)

I'm pretty sure Adelaide Brooke can also be explained with the metatime framework, but I leave that as an exercise for the reader. :) --Falcotron 00:41, May 8, 2010 (UTC)

'Dalek' was never a plothole - it was orignally just wiped over with the events of The Stolen Earth/Journey's End. As in, it was retconed out of the timeline. Steven Moffat, among other writers, have spoken of what some fans call these so-called continuity errors - they're not. In a show where the main character is a time traveler, he is changing time. Back when he visited 2012 in 'Dalek', there had never been any big invasions in the 21st century prior. That occured later in the Doctor's own timeline, erasing the events of 'Dalek'. It's time travel, changing history. Doctor Who has no, and never will have, a strict continuity. When the Doctor travels, he is potentially erasing thing s from history that we saw in other episodes, but he will never be affected because he is a time traveler.

The Dalek invasion never happened before, but the Dalek's time travel made it happen, changing the future of the 21st century, and erasing things such as 'Dalek'. That was the way it worked, however, until the cracks then removed the Dalek invasion, possibly reverting the timeline back to how it was like in 'Dalek' and 'Fear Her' - not everyone is that aware of alien life. Doctor Who, like they say, doesn't have one strict contininuity, the entire show retcons itself with all the time traveling, and erases so-and-so left and right and overwrites its own timeline. The nature of the show is that the Doctor, however, will remember everything - what happens, what happened, what should never happen, what will happen, and what once happened, but no longer has happened. That's the timeline for you - wibbly and wobbly, it's a big ball and is prone to change. There is no strict progression.

The Dalek invasiob being removed, however, is no big deal. It's just the show retcoing things again. We're not always areare what is retconed and what isn't. but this was in-you-face.

It's like with Earth being moved and renamed at a time period in the classic series, and then suddenly back and called Earth in the year 5 billion - that's retconing, too. Changing time and history. I believe either Russel T Davis or Steven Moffat said the Time War changed the timeline dramatically, rewriting things such as the Earth movement and rename. Doctor Who is aloud to overwrite its timeline continuity because it's all in flux and wibbly wobbly, as Moffat notes. Delton Menace 01:11, May 8, 2010 (UTC)

I understand what you're saying. I think Moffat has a different (and more thought-out) view of how time travel works than RTD did--but even if he didn't, there's still a question here: What's the point of doing this especially-in-your-face retconning? And I think the answer is that (a) he wants to write a "real time-travel story," and (b) he wants to return the Earth in the early 21st century to being unaware of aliens. --Falcotron 01:25, May 8, 2010 (UTC)

I personally think he is trying to make more fans aware of the way the show really works. Too many fans think it's all one, linear, and straight continuity flow. But as he has said both in episodes and in interviews and things, it really isn't. The best way to describe it - "Time is like a big ball of wibbly, wobbly, timey-wimey stuff." Ugh, something like that. The Doctor's time travel and dimension hoping + the Daleks time traveling and dimension hoping... oh boy, will time change, indeed. Plus, the Time War really did a no. 1 on time, too. Heck, Moffat jokingly blamed Rory's inncorect ID badge date (1990) on the Time War - "It's that time war again." xD

But my point is that he really needs to clear up some things established in the RTD - the so-called continuity errors. He is probably aware of fans speculating in the "errors" regarding them, so he needs to make clear that time in the Whoniverse isn't a strict cause of progression (which was noted in Blink), that it can change left and right because of the Doctor, and the Daleks, ect.. The crack arc of his has basically explained why no one ever remember the events of the Next Doctor, the CyberKing over London, and the Dalek invasion ot being remembered in quite a number of 21st century-related things - time being unwirtten and rewritten. He is really intending to clear up the "errors", as fans call them. He is a veyr smart man when it comes to how time works in Doctor Who. The fans should listen to him more. Instacnes in-universe of how time really works in the Whoniverse can be found in Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead ("time can be rewritten), and the same thing was mentioned in The Time of Angels/Flesh and Stone, including how some things have indeed been unwritten. In Blink, written by him, there was the Doctor's comment that time isn't strict of liner- it can change and bend. Delton Menace 02:09, May 8, 2010 (UTC)

Okay That totally makes sense about the whole eleventh doctor thing, and the year that never was thing [I would love to see a what if story about that, like say if martha had died and time wasn't reversed, what would have happened there, Davros against master, though I was thinking one other plothole about last of the time lords is why rose isn't there, or why the master didn't notice things like planets dissapearing, but thats a different discussion.] If stolen earth and journey's end are indeed gone do you guys think we will see the cult of skaro again, I personally thought they were killed off way to early. -Winehousefan 11:20 May 8,2010 [UTC]

I doubt the new race of "pure" Daleks would let the Cult of Skaro live for very long if they entered our reality again. Bluebox444 11:29, May 8, 2010 (UTC)

Yeah your right Bluebox444 Those pure Daleks would probably slaughter the cult [not just beacuse they are different physically but because the cult had emotions], still though I have to wonder if journey's end is gone where davros will be. Will his history be the same no matter what because he is a time traveller like the doctor or is he still in the time war. Winehousefan 13:11, 2010 [UTC].

Delton, you're arguing almost the same thing as me, just in different words. The key point is what both of us are saying is that time _really can be rewritten/unwritten_. As far as anyone who's not a time traveler is concerned, the old version never happened, so pulling those events out of history really does remove all those "continuity errors", as simple as that. (And those lines about time bending--that's exactly what got me thinking of putting it in terms of relativity. But how it ties into physics isn't what's important; how it works as a story-telling framework is.)

As far as being "instances of how time really works"--well, exactly, those are "instances of how time works _when Steven Moffat is writing_." But there are many other episodes, both classic and new, where it works in totally different ways. Where time resists being rewritten, or where rewriting time creates parallel worlds, or where things that are unwritten still continue on as if they happened, or where it really makes no sense at all so you might as well just not think about it.

But for Moffat, it's always the same: when you unwrite something, it's unwritten, and all of the obvious consequences of it being unwritten, those happen. It's not necessarily simple to trace those consequences in practice, since you don't know all the things that are being unwritten and rewritten off-camera, especially during something like the LGTW. But any time Moffat gives you all the strands that go into a story, you can follow where they lead and get to the right places at the end of the story. (Even in Curse of Fatal Death.)

And Moffat's in charge, so from now on (or at least for the next few years, at least on TV), his view of how time works will be _the_ way it works in Doctor Who, not just one of many contradictory ways. Which is exactly what will allow him to write interesting time travel stuff (especially as a season arc).

Anyway, the only real difference here, other than terminology, is that I'm speculating that he's going to remove all of the other invasions that became public knowledge, not just the two that have been specifically mentioned. I think his secondary interest (after the time travel thing) is cleaning the slate to make alien invasions fantastic again, while you think his secondary interest (after the time travel thing) is cleaning up the most commented-on continuity errors. The reality is, he probably cares about both of those things, and it's just a guess which one informed his writing in this case. --Falcotron 13:32, May 8, 2010 (UTC)

I am glad you can see what I'm saying there, unlike probably a lot of people on here with their linear, straightforward continuity glasses... But I don't really think Steven Moffat might be removing all invasions to make 21st century Earth unaware of alien life, though. I mean, he only seems to have removed one 21st century Earth invasion to create a sense of 'WTF' about the cracks' ability, how it/they can remove events from history. There have been instances in classic series stories where no one remembers something they should have done, so this could very well explain all instances of not remembering things that are supposed to have happened.

But what continuity errors are you refering to in terms of time? If I could name one it would be the ever-ignored "year skip" (as in, the writers blantly ignored it) that has caused a lot of problems. Like the story could explain that the cracks canceled out Aliens of London/World War Three, or they rewrote it so that there wasn't a missing year. Delton Menace 13:47, May 8, 2010 (UTC)

First, you don't have to remove all 21st century invasions to make people unaware. Just the ones where it's obvious (or where we were specifically told) that they went beyond the ability of UNIT coverups plus the general SEP effect (as remarked on by Doctors 6 and 7). RTD at one point argued that only one classic contemporary story, Terror of the Zygons, couldn't have been dealt with in this way--and, despite his intention to change that, there really weren't that many from his era either.

Meanwhile, the crack didn't just remove 1 invasion; it removed at least 2 (the Cyberking in London). And that's 2 from a very short list of maybe 5 or so that would have to go.

However, you could argue that if someone started unwriting events at random, any events of that list would be the first ones the Doctor would notice, so the fact that the first 2 he noticed are on that list doesn't really establish a pattern.

I don't get your last question. When I said "continuity errors" I was directly quoting you, referring to the things that are supposed to be common knowledge but aren't.

If you want to get into the year skip, they were mostly consistent with that. There's one huge mistake that can be cleared up just by moving Easter a few weeks that year, and the rest are just minor production errors. When you can handle the UNIT dating stuff and when Wheel in Space happened and so on, then we can argue about whether that Easter shift is plausible.

Meanwhile I don't think Moffat's going to somehow shift the RTD era all back one year. Although, if he came up with a way to do it that was interesting enough, especially if it opened up some good storytelling possibilities... --Falcotron 16:29, May 8, 2010 (UTC)

I was just thinking do you guys think that any RTD characters will be back. I am aware steven moffat said no RTD characters will be back but he also said no classic monsters are back like the daleks so this may just be a lie, I remember even RTD said the Daleks wouldn't be back after parting of ways in one interview. If only the doctor and other time travellers still remember the original events do you think one of them will help him out, or at least ask him whats going on I mean it would be wierd for Martha if she was talking about Daleks and then everyone thought she was crazy. Obviously Rose isn't gonna come back because then David Tennant would have to can't see donna either Martha might have been if the gorgeous Freema Agyeman hadn't been cast in Law and Order UK Jack and Sarah might be a possibility, for a cameo or something, what do you think personally I wouldn't mind seeing martha again but I would hate to see Donna or Rose because I think their storylines came to a rather neat end and it should be a few years at least before they come back, if they should come back at all I mean they were both great but there is a limit to how many times you can write a character out for good.

Sign your post... ^ Steven Moffat said the only character he ever considers returning is Jack, but no one else. You do realise, Doctor Who has finally moved on? Moffat has noted that it would be a terrible idea to bring and characters back now because it would derail The End of Time parting, and be unoriginal. We already have anew cast now, and new Tardis, new everything. No one's coming back. Enemies are a different case because the Doctor has recurring enemies such the the Daleks. But Doctor Who introduces major characters, leaves them, and then never looks back. What about all those classic series companions who haven't even been mentioned, let alone return? And the actors are around for the job. The only returnies we will ever see is in Doctor Who's spin-offs (such as the Brig and Jo in SJA). Delton Menace 00:54, May 9, 2010 (UTC)

I wouldn't be quite that categorical about it.

First, you can't say that Doctor Who "leaves them, and then never looks back". It's looked back plenty of times, in both the classic show and the new one. Even forgetting The Five Doctors, Dimensions in Time, and most of the RTD finales (which are all special cases and can be ignored), off the top of my head, Jamie, Harry, Sarah Jane, Yates, Benton, the Brig, Nyssa, Tegan, Jack, Martha, and Donna all came back after being written off.

The fact that Moff said he won't bring anyone back, period, I'd take with a grain of salt. He approved of RTD lying to trick the fans--but only if the added suspense was worth it. And even if he never lies to us, he can always change his mind.

Really, the only question that ever matters to him about anything is whether the story he can write is good enough to justify it. If he's sitting down to write episode 3202 next year and comes up with a scene that would be so brilliant with Donna that he can't stop thinking about it, and it's good enough to be worth undoing the sendoff RTD gave her, he'll be on the phone trying to see if he can get Catherine Tate. If that doesn't happen, she'll never be back.

Your point about those classic series companions is a great one. In fact, I think Moff would be more likely to bring one of them back than an RTD one, just because (as the unsigned poster said) RTD already gave all of his companions a satisfying wrapup. But for, say, Jamie or Tegan, the bar would be lower.

Anyway, the one thing he'll never do is bring someone back just for the sake of a reunion. If he doesn't absolutely need a character in a story, that character won't be there. --Falcotron 02:45, May 9, 2010 (UTC)

One thing we know about Moffat, though, it that he likes change and moving on in the series based on things has has done and said before. New Doctor, new TARDIS, new Sonic Screwdriver, new logo, theme, titles, and even Daleks. Oh, and completely new characters. Moffat has introduced us to a set of new characters, decreasing the chances of him bringing people back. Things he has noted before is that with this begining a new era, there will be comletely new fans who started watching as of the begining of his era, and he wouldn't want to alienate them with a flood of returning. Sure, we can get references, flashbacks, the like. But he is very afraid, it seems, of alienating anyone who started watching at the begining of his, new era. They're settling to know these new characters. The more new characters sink in, the more the old ones are less likely to come back. You can only have so much main cast, you couldn't fit a bunch of returnies in all the new characters unless it was a long episode.. Note that The Stolen Earth/Journey's End tried this, but even then, that was with all already known characters.

I can see from Moffat's actions that he has intention of just saying "let's move on, let go of the past." The last five years had all been closely tied together with featuring the same major characters throughout. Series 5 is completely sepperate from the previous five years in terms of this: it's only new characters, and they will have their time throughout the next few series before it moves on once again with, yet again, more new characters. The characters we speak of had several returns already, it really is time to let them go. Moffat does, however, think of bringing Jack back becaus he feels many fans would like that (he's quite a popular character, and his story doesn't ever wrap up because of his nature). Jack is, like River, a character that can keep on returning because their stories don't get wrap-ups. It seems, to Moffat, they're the expecptions for returning. Delton Menace 05:05, May 9, 2010 (UTC)

Exactly. Because you never end Jack's story, the bar for bringing him back is a lot lower than for, say, Donna. You still need a _good_ story to justify Jack, but for Donna you'd need an absolutely _amazing_ story or it wouldn't be worth it.

I think you're right about the fear of alienating new viewers, and about moving on to the future, but there are even more reasons. Bringing Donna back would destroy the end of the Donna story--and yes, he could give it an even better ending, but he could just as easily create a brand new story and end that, and then his show has two great stories instead of one. And Donna is RTD's character, so RTD's got some right to decide how it ends. And so on. But all of these things point in the same direction--the cost of bringing Donna back is a lot higher than most fans realize, so the benefits would have to be huge to even think about it. --Falcotron 07:19, May 9, 2010 (UTC)#

Sorry guys it was me Winehousefan that put that original post about whether any RTD characters will be back, forgot to sign my post wont happen agian Winehousefan, 13:01 May 9 2010[UTC]

I think you guys are right about Jack being the only one to return, I recall reading that RTD hopes to see further crossovers between DW and TW, SO who knows maybe if any old companions become part of the new torchwood, like mickey then they will turn up to. Winehousefan, 13:21 May 9, 2010[UTC]