Howling:The Alliance
Please DO NOT add to this discussion.
So, an Alliance.
Will have to watch again, but did not see any Weevils.
Only the Sontarans seemed to be there to save the universe, and said so after the Doctor was in the Pandorica, so were under no obligation to mislead.
Maybe I'm just cynical, but I can't see any alliance involving the daleks or cybermen lasting too long, but that said, the capability of the Nestene Consciousness to run something way more sophisticated than shop mannikins and rubberised dopplegangers (remember imposter Mickey in Season One?) has me wondering if any of the members of the Alliance are really plastic imposters that believe their own cover story?!
(Response to the above comment)I thought much the same when I watched the programme, could this just be a continuity error or are these 'autons' something more, even morre threatening I think is that if this is the work of the Nestene consciousness (and fine work it is!) then how have they returned from the Time War? What else could have returned? It just does not add up to me, this whole 'alliance' and I am starting to think you are right about something else being behind all of the 'villains', if they are even what they appear to be. Remember Prisoner Zero could 'morph' into whatever it had consciousness of?! Could it be something similar to that (although I am not suggesting that Prisoner ZERO is behind all of this!!!)======Sontar HA========
The Nestene lost ALL their protein planets in the Time War, which was being conducted equally by the daleks and Time Lords, so I cannot see those two genuinely joining forces.
Disappointed to see the Judoon present, as really enjoyed them as intergalactic police. Slightly mollified, as in the same instance of them beaming in, a case was being made that calculations put the Doctor as being responsible for the cracks.
Torchwood Five 188.28.46.153 22:41, June 19, 2010 (UTC)
Remember, if they're intergalactic police and the Doctor is about to commit first-degree universicide, they're kinda obligated to stop him... Cannon881 18:24, June 24, 2010 (UTC)
- Lots more creatures were there for the filming than ended up on-screen, as shown by Confidential. In addition to the Daleks, Cybermen, Sontarans, Autons, and Judoon, there were Weevils, Sycorax, Roboforms, Hoix, Blowfish, Silurians, and possibly others. Rob T Firefly 23:25, June 19, 2010 (UTC)
They did all just join together even with the Daleks because they could all be destroyed by the cracks, though they did hate the Daleks the Daleks are one of the most advanced races ever who knows more about a threat to every universe than the Daleks. Still good point about the nestenes having a grudge they might duke it out in part two because of all their differences after they think the doctor has been contained, who knows maybe the doc will be able to escape that way. Winehousefan, 23:54, June 19, 2010 [UTC]
The Daleks had the Doctor in their sights, why didn't they just exterminate him instead of locking him up? THe other Daleks would have killed him and all the other races instead of working with them. They are no longer Daleks to me. (although I think they look awsome in pretty colours) --Donovan-j-charlie 23:17, June 19, 2010 (UTC)
The Daleks have lost their fear factor for me. I don't know whether it's just because they appear so often, or because with the new design I can't help but think "Richard Of York Gave Battle In Vain". I think the Cybermen are much more intimidating. They've been getting more and more powerful over the last few series, they take people and turn them into more Cybermen and use them as soldiers, rather than just killing them, and they can walk up stairs. 213.123.6.242 00:14, June 20, 2010 (UTC)
The Daleks probably went to all that effort because they know that every attempt to zap the doc has failed, so they built this thing that would absoloutly hold him. Remember they don't want him to pilot the TARDIS so they would have thought if they shoot him he will probably run into it flee, or suppose they try and shoot him he could just flee. But still when they had him in chains they could have just zapped him there, it is a bit of a plothole, but overall I still think that was one of if not the best finale's of the new who. Winehousefan, 09:20, June 20, 2010 [UTC]
So the fundamemtal question remains - why contain when it is easier, and more certain, to kill. There was plenty of opportunity.
Perhaps the Alliance is being played? Jack Chilli 09:32, June 20, 2010 (UTC)
Maybe they realized that he'd regenerate, and didn't want to take the chance of him coming back if they killed him. --Halftimelord 09:35, June 20, 2010 (UTC)
Regenerate? They had an amada of thousands of battleships. Kill him chop him to chunks, kill all of them, take every atom and kill that. He's not an immortal or even physically tough. Jack Chilli 11:57, June 20, 2010 (UTC)
Yes, but they might not have known that. All the times that they've tried to kill him before and failed, they might just decide that it would be easier to keep him locked up than try and kill him, because he might seem indestructible to them. --Halftimelord 12:06, June 20, 2010 (UTC)
They have fought wars with the timelords. They can analyse him by sight; know his strenghts and weaknesses. They know he regenerates but they have the power to keep killing and killing and killing and killing him. They are not stupid. Or, they _were_ not stupid. It just seems very wrong. Jack Chilli 12:30, June 20, 2010 (UTC)
Where were the Weeping Angels? All that stone and not one statue . . . Jack Chilli 12:01, June 20, 2010 (UTC)
I think Jack Chilli may have a point. Is the Alliance being played?
So, scenarios:
1. Reversal of Fortune: at the end of the episode, we saw the supernovas and darkness happening anyway. So that could have the Sontarans et al, next week going, "Well that didn't work".
2. In Stephen Moffatt style, a Doctor or other ally may have put something inside the Pandorica to aid whoever gets put in there.
3. While exploring the outside, 11th said "whoever controls the Pandorica controls the universe", so, could one race be intending to control it and the Doctor once he is inside, while everyone else thinks it is to do with saving the universe?
4. Is this going to be another Crowning Moment of Awesome [1] for the Nestene? Personally, I think they earned one in TPO.
Jack mentions the Weeping Angels. They already learned to their cost that you don't put the 11th in a trap, not if you value your continued existence, so they would probably cry off the idea.
This, like most of my speculations, may not have a bearing, but in the back of my mind, the Silurian force field that makes it look like night, keeps occuring. Usually over Amy's house, but how about round the Earth? Perhaps to convince the Alliance that silence has fallen? Torchwood Five 92.40.152.114 12:56, June 20, 2010 (UTC)
Again, it seems odd that the Silurians are there. Somebody bring them along for fun? What time period are they from? Why are they needed? Are they good-guys getting ready to help? An awful lot of disparate species are brought across time and space to witness the end of the Doctor. I'm finding hard to believe in the Aliance being real. Jack Chilli 17:59, June 20, 2010 (UTC)
- Interesting... I haven't seen reference to that Silurian energy barrier outside their 2-parter before, but it would explain the misplaced night sequences. Maybe they're protecting Earth, or maybe someone else is... Agonaga 18:11, June 20, 2010 (UTC)
Almost everybody there has understood that you don't put the Doctor in a trap but they do so anyway? The Angels thought they could feed off the energy from the cracks and eventually consume all of space and time. Then they fell into one. Perhaps this didn't do what we assumed it would, perhaps this actually let them consume everything. They have feasted on the Universe and it has gone.
Is the trap an elaborate ruse by the future doctor to _protect_ him from the destruction so that he can fix it 'later'. The prison box is not a prison; it's a refuge. He has set the path to allow his success and has he destroyed the TARDIS to destroy the Angels by forcing the cracks open. The TARDIS explodes when he is put in the box. Why then? His enemies (many of them) and his current self may not know this yet. His future self has allowed the destruction of the univere to take place (he had some good chances to leave a note ("Dear Me; don't go near Stonehenge; the universe will end. Yours ?".); he must have a good reason to do this. The Angels watch from every crack we've seen; he must take care. Jack Chilli.
Oh, and what was the message on the psychic paper in TEH? Just another repeat of "Prisoner Zere has Escaped?" Wouldn't that be a bit redundant?
It seems to me there's quite a few things pointing to the Alliance being unreal, some of which had already been mentioned:
- Really? The Daleks imprison the Doctor instead of exterminating? In the past, they've shown difficulty in following orders when told to keep him alive, a compulsion to kill.
- Pretty much the same statement about the Cybermen, who have refused his surrender in the past and had to drop a one-liner before killing him which saves his backside.
- Too many different enemies, just too many. How would they all have found one another anyway?
- Too many useless enemies, like Weevils and Hoix and a few other really, really dumb species that I can't think of offhand. I mean, who had the idea to bring these guys into the mix, and would they even be capable of understanding the danger? And how do these kind of "dumb animal" aliens manage to stand still for so long?
- Too many enemies that are NOT useless, but still don't seem to belong -- Silurian and (I forgot the name, starts with "Dh" I think) the female warrior race from a 1965 story.
- The "formation" of the enemies felt too posed, even for a fanboy-esque fiction, and the music just oozed a "not real" mood.
I don't know if it's all Nestene as suggested above or some sort of "Amy's Universe" thing going on (everything ends and Silence falls at moment of her death, after all) but the more I watch it (twice full and caught the ending a third time) the more I feel like the Alliance just can't be real. BrainySpecs 06:26, June 22, 2010 (UTC)
An Auton doctor could easily be an way of fooling the alliance, with every single one except him being activated at the time? However that's only if the Nestene wanted to trick everyone else, or if the "Future Doctor" theory is true and he somehow tricked them to buy himself time to do whatever he is planning for Ep 13. Just my thoughts anyway. 92.0.134.177 08:40, June 22, 2010 (UTC)
I'm sorry am I missing something here? didnt the alliance just emprison the doctor in a box with no air to BREATHE and no food or water? They ARE killing him, and even if he regenerates he's stilltrapped inside the pandorica so he will die again and again! it is the perfect EXTERMINATION ;) As for the alliance itself, I dont think the final episode will focus on this issue, except explaining how all those creatures travel in time. The alliance are not the real baddies in the story. It is the voice who said "Silence will fall" who's causing the explosion not the alliance. THey are only trying to prevent it. So next episode will focus on the real reason of the explosion 91.73.110.105 09:46, June 22, 2010 (UTC)
The box has stasis fileds and time locks. He will be frozen in time inside it (so he can't even think about escaping) so no need for food or water. The perfect extermination is to shoot him; there and then. No pause, no mercy, no ceremony just certain death. Execute him; sacrifice him to save the universe. Put him in a box? Someone will come back and let him out. Could just be poor plotting but I get a felling that being in the Box is going to turn out to be handy. Jack.
Well, presumably they know the explosion is meant to occur on 26/6/2010. So the Box may be programmed to imprison him until then, and afterwards it'll open and a kindly Sontaran version of Mrs. Doubtfire will pat him on the back and hand him a mug of cocoa for being such a good sport. Or at least, that was the plan. DeadWalrus 22:41, June 22, 2010 (UTC)
But the alliance does make sense, first of all, the Tenth Doctor's last encounter with the Shadow Proclamation didn't exactly ended on a sweet note and the Judoons were never friends with the doctor nor were they Justice League...and we don't even know if all Judoons work for the Shadow Proclamation. The Nestene vs Daleks or any other feuds between the allies are not really the biggest concern considering that this is a desperate alliance formed to ensure their existence...it does make sense that they would ally with anyone that they could find. The holding the Doctor captive part isn't too far-fetched either -- this is an alliance, and not all the allies are enemies of the doctor (the Welsh Silurians, the Judoons etc and maybe there are even unnamed allies), and it's just simply that some of the allies objected to killing the Doctor and the Daleks compromised (e.g., we don't know how weevils and the Doctor fare together...the Doctor could be hanging out in Weevil bars every weekend)...the Daleks have always placed their own existence above the Doctor's destruction. Moreover, we don't know which point in time do these aliens come from, and how are their relationships with the Doctor at that point...a nice and convenient theoretical idea that is logical unlike most theories here is that all these creatures (maybe except those who are capable of time traveling) were the final races left after the cracks randomly rearranged and deleted planets from time and space. Since some of the cracks transport, some of them delete, the ones that are luckily not deleted will be gathered in the final time and place in the universe as the cracks grow and there are fewer and fewer locations in time and space to transport to. This just conveniently explains why the complete randomness in the allies and the technological/background/attitude inconsistency....most of these aliens are from futures relative to the Doctor's timeline...thus, space Cybus Cybermen with extremely advanced technology and a new disco catchphrase, Judoons (which may not be a part of the Shadow Proclamation, and the Shadow Proclamation might not have existed or might be gone in their timeline...not that they wouldn't be a part of it if they were under the Shadow Proclamation), and having Weevils as allies (well, they are mildly time sensitive, they can at least be crack-detecting dogs)203.168.176.42 08:27, June 23, 2010 (UTC)
The Doctor is the mastermind. After he gets out of the Pandorica, he forms the Alliance & ensures his past-self doesn't figure out the plan. Then, when the ENTIRE ALLIANCE is present to lock him in the Pandorica, the future Doctor pops in to destroy them all. 3gv 19:03, June 24, 2010 (UTC)
May be off topic but the weevils may actually be important we don't know where they come from, for example maybe they're a very smart alien species that exiles their "less intelligent" people to other planets (similar to how people in China need a certain IQ percent to go to collage/university) so the weevils in the alliance may very well be the most intelligent or most useful members we will just have to wait and see how the species truly acts.--Berfomet 01:13, June 25, 2010 (UTC)
They are, essentially, the bad guys, and they wont stay buddies for long. I just can't see it happening.
