Howling:The difference between Gallifreyans and Time Lords
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What are the differences between Gallifreyans and Time Lords? I bring this up, as in Smith and Jones Martha asks the Doctor what species he is, to which he replies he is Time Lord. This makes it sound like Time Lords were not Gallifreyan, but a different species. --The Thirteenth Doctor 12:21, October 12, 2010 (UTC)
Timelords are a group of Gallifreyans, but for some reason they can use Timelord and Gallifreyan interchangably when reffering to their species.Icecreamdif 01:18, October 13, 2010 (UTC)
Gallifreyans refers to the inhabitants of planet Gallifrey. They didnt intially have the technology of time travel. But later when they discovered it they became Timelords. 91.73.110.191 18:25, October 13, 2010 (UTC)
The reason is because Rassilon like all other inhabitants of Gallifrey was Gallifreyan, however he placed something (nanites one ref book suggests) into Gallifreyan biodata which gave them the ability to regenerate among other things, thus creating a new race the Time Lords. Interference, The Gallifrey Chronicles (illustrated guide) and some of the comics shed light on this. Revanvolatrelundar 18:32, October 13, 2010 (UTC)
- If Rassilon altered their biodata, would that not mean they are a completely different species? Isn't that like Davros' altering Kaleds to become Daleks, or even Lumic using Humans to create Cybermen? --The Thirteenth Doctor 18:43, October 13, 2010 (UTC)
- I dont like the theory that Rasillon put some crazy robots in their biodata and i like the idea that exposure to time travel evolved them (think that may have been used to explain it too but i dont know a story that has it in). But Rassilon's alterations dont necessarily mean they are a totally different species, just Gallifreyan version 1.2 Revanvolatrelundar 18:49, October 13, 2010 (UTC)
I've always thought as it like humans and earthicans, I mean, there was bound to be other species on galifrey, animals at least, like here on earth, the time lords were one speices, and there were others, galifrians were anything that came from that planet. General MGD 109
- Gallifreyan is the species while Time Lord is an earned title, just as here on Earth all Ph.D.s are human but not all humans have Ph.D.s. For instance there's a Time Lord Academy, and there are Outsiders and Shobogans who are Gallifreyan but not Time Lords. Rob T Firefly 09:17, October 14, 2010 (UTC)
- But the Doctor is directly asked "What species are you?" and he replies "Time Lord". So canon means that Time Lord is a species. --The Thirteenth Doctor 21:04, October 14, 2010 (UTC)
- Just look up I.M. Foreman, he/she is a Gallifreyan, but is not quite a Time Lord due to some biological differences. Interference - Book Two explains most of what makes Time Lords what they are. Revanvolatrelundar 21:08, October 14, 2010 (UTC)
- Hold on a minute, not all the books are chronological with the series, if they were, there would be literally hundreds of errors, and I don't recall it ever being comfirmed that that book is, so it cann't be used to explain this argument, besides how would having a degree change what spieces you belong to? That makes no sence, and then why are they always refered to as time lords, not just in that cause but in all the other ones that quesion there species? Don't you think my explination is a bit more resonable, I mean every living thing on this planet is an earthican, but are species is human, if you put that into perspective then it makes more sense. General MGD 109
- This wikia at least treats all spin off media as canon that is why i used it in the arguement. You're arguement has been contradicted by the television series because the Doctor had talked about creatures from his world who were not called Gallifreyan such as Woprats, Flutterwings, Vortisaurs etc. All Gallifreyans are refered to as Time Lords because they are the evolved stage of Gallifreyan and thus Gallifreyans were marginalised in society so much to a point that they were removed from the Capitol (see Shobogans). I.M. Foreman was a Gallifreyan monk and monks in his time were given the ability to regenerate thus giving them a higher status than a regular Gallifreyan. Revanvolatrelundar 19:11, October 16, 2010 (UTC)
- The Big Finish audio Omega says that Time Lords are Gallifreyans who own a TARDIS. TemporalSpleen 08:23, October 17, 2010 (UTC)
The Mawdyrn Undead suggests that a Gallifreyan needs to do more than just own a TARDIS to be a timelord. Mawdyrn wanted the Doctor to give up his regenerations to allow them to die, and the Doctor said that that would mean that he wasn't a timelord anymore, even though he would still own his TARDIS. In the new series, the Master doesn't own a TARDIS anymore, but he is refferred to as a timelord, and references to Jenny being timelord, the Doctor being half timelord on his father's side, and Donna being half human, half timelord, suggest that it is more involved than owning a TARDIS. Based on Mawdryn Undead, it seems that to be a timelord you have to be able to regenerate.Icecreamdif 17:07, October 17, 2010 (UTC)
I would go with that, more or less what i put earlier but novels and other media have suggested other things as well as regeneration bridge the gap between Gallifreyan and Time Lord. Revanvolatrelundar 17:16, October 17, 2010 (UTC)
- The main problem is that there's too many writers with different ideas, so finding a conisistent explanation is next to impossible. Sometimes it's a social thing, sometimes it's a biological thing. Then you've got the instances when it's used interchangeably. More likely than not it's a combination of these things. - I. Am. Excalibur-117-(talk • contribs) 17:26, October 17, 2010 (UTC)
The Outsiders gave up the lives to live in the desert. This seems to suggest that it is a cultural difference. (TV: The Invasion of Time) However, Mawdryn Undead clearly portrays it as a physical difference. (TV: Mawdryn Undead) The Gallifreyan page seems to suggest that the Outsiders are no longer Time Lords. The dialogue also supports this. (TV: The Invasion of Time)--Skittles the hog 16:39, December 31, 2010 (UTC)
so this is what it seems like to me. all time lords are gallifreyans who have been exposed to the time vortex which changes their biology slightly. only gallifreyans who have traveled in time and/or have looked into the untempered schism are time lords121.216.229.210 02:58, July 13, 2011 (UTC)
Based on A Good Man Goes to War that is definetly part of it, but in Invasion of Time there were Gallifreyans who had made the decision to stop being Timelords. A Good Man Goes to War also suggests that it is not neccesary to be a Gallifreyan in order to be a Timelord, as River was a Timelady, or at least Timeladyish, and she was Human.Icecreamdif 01:35, July 14, 2011 (UTC)
There seems to be an assumption around here that there is only one right answer to any question; that the existence of two words, 'Gallifreyan' and 'Time Lord' means that they are two different concepts. This might apply if Gallifreyan were a heavily supervised language, like French with its Academy defining words, and no slang; but since the Time Lords are an ancient civilization, is it not impossible that both terms are largely interchangeable? After all, if someone asked you what species you are, you might answer "Human Being" or "Homo Sapiens" depending on your mood and never think twice tat they mean different things. Given other issues like species being defined by their planets of origin, the terms can be at least occasionally interchangeable, like the eighth synonym in a good-sized thesaurus.
That being the case, we are left with the questions: are all Gallifreyans Time Lords? Are all Time Lords Gallifreyan? Certainly, to judge by the dialogue in THE DOCTOR'S DAUGHTER there is a cultural component to it; there are Gallifreyans, we learn from the classic WHO, who have rejected Gallifreyan society. Perhaps they are the same species, perhaps not. Maybe the genetic makeup shifted over a billion years so that the Time Lords at the beginning of their existence were not the same as at the end. Certainly, one can interpret the at-least-semi-canonical Looms as indicative of the 'muling out' that would accompany speciation as Gallifreyans became genetically so diverse they could no longer breed. Considering the rather vigorous hybridization that occurs in the Whoniverse (as the Doctor says in VAMPIRES OF VENICE, "Think of the Children"... But possibly I digress...
I return to my initial point: in all likelihood 'Gallifreyan' and 'Time Lord' are acceptable synonyms for each other and the distinction is such that one would have to travel to Gallifrey to observe the relatively fine genetic and cultural distinctions that differentiate the two. As Gallifrey is time locked, that isn't going to happen; and, as the Doctor is the only remaining example of either class, there's no real problem in his using the terms interchangeably. Like so many of the discussions here, this one seems rather pedantic....Boblipton 02:39, July 14, 2011 (UTC)
Well, he doesn't use the terms interchangeably; he sometimes makes distinctions. For example, it was a very big deal to the Doctor that Jenny, despite being Gallifreyan, was not a Time Lord.
But I think you're right that they're rough synonyms, and there's only person in the universe who really appreciates the denotational much less the connotational differences, so there's not much more to say.
Except for one minor thing: there's no billions of years of Time Lords. Pretty much everything we know puts it around 6300 years from beginning to end. The Deadly Assassin happened in year 6241 Rassilon Era. The few other dates given in the classic show, novels, and audios were in the same general area. The EDAs clearly established that there were somewhere in the vicinity of 420 Presidents in history from Rassilon to Romana (and of course one more for Rassilon again during the LGTW, after the novels), and implied that most of them serve somewhere from 150 and 299 years. Rassilon is described multiple times as having been dead for a few millennia. Omega was trapped for thousands of years in his antimatter universe. And so on. (Of course Rassilon also lead the Time Lords in The First War in Heaven and various other Time Wars, 13 billion years ago, back in the Dark Times. But they're time travelers, and the wars are called Time Wars for a reason.) --99.8.228.116 10:29, July 16, 2011 (UTC)
