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Forum:Can we disable visual editor please?: Difference between revisions
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Forum:Can we disable visual editor please? (edit)
Revision as of 03:08, 28 August 2012
, 28 August 2012Sorry for having to do this, but I'm being forced to change my sig, and clean up after it, by Wikia Staff
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'''So, are there any objections to turning off the visual editor?''' | '''So, are there any objections to turning off the visual editor?''' | ||
{{user:CzechOut/Sig}} | {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}}22:01: Sat 17 Dec 2011 </span> | ||
<div id=tech> | <div id=tech> | ||
Please note that as of 22 December, every single user has been personally invited to participate in this discussion, ''including'' all IP users. This thread will remain open for ''at least'' one month to give people a reasonable time to respond. By being placed before the community before the premiere of the 2011 Christmas special, an event which will inevitably spike our editorship to its highest levels prior to the return of DW in late 2012, it is hoped that we will attract the widest possible range of respondents. | Please note that as of 22 December, every single user has been personally invited to participate in this discussion, ''including'' all IP users. This thread will remain open for ''at least'' one month to give people a reasonable time to respond. By being placed before the community before the premiere of the 2011 Christmas special, an event which will inevitably spike our editorship to its highest levels prior to the return of DW in late 2012, it is hoped that we will attract the widest possible range of respondents. | ||
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(I apologise for the bot's placement of multiple invitations on some user's talk pages and archive pages. This is the first time we've issued a message to ''everyone'' and I didn't consider some truisms of the user talk namespace in my bot programming.) | (I apologise for the bot's placement of multiple invitations on some user's talk pages and archive pages. This is the first time we've issued a message to ''everyone'' and I didn't consider some truisms of the user talk namespace in my bot programming.) | ||
{{user:CzechOut/Sig}} | {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}}19:57: Thu 22 Dec 2011 </span> | ||
</div> | </div> | ||
== Get rid of visual editor == | == Get rid of visual editor == | ||
* {{user:CzechOut/Sig}} | * {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}}22:01: Sat 17 Dec 2011 </span>, for reasons above | ||
*'''[[User:Tardis1963|<span style="background:#0E234E; color:white">Tardis1963</span>]]''' '''[[User talk:Tardis1963|<span style="background:#0E234E; color:white">talk</span>]]''' 22:07, December 17, 2011 (UTC) I hate it over on the DWCW, so I'm all for getting rid of it. | *'''[[User:Tardis1963|<span style="background:#0E234E; color:white">Tardis1963</span>]]''' '''[[User talk:Tardis1963|<span style="background:#0E234E; color:white">talk</span>]]''' 22:07, December 17, 2011 (UTC) I hate it over on the DWCW, so I'm all for getting rid of it. | ||
*[[User:Mini-mitch|MM]]/<small>[[User talk:Mini-mitch|Want to talk?]]</small> 12:02, December 18, 2011 (UTC) I agree completely with the reasons above. | *[[User:Mini-mitch|MM]]/<small>[[User talk:Mini-mitch|Want to talk?]]</small> 12:02, December 18, 2011 (UTC) I agree completely with the reasons above. | ||
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* I'd like to keep it. Some pages only need minor editing and it can be difficult to wade through all the wiki code in source mode. [[User:Shambala108|Shambala108]] <sup>[[User talk:Shambala108|talk to me]]</sup> 02:13, December 18, 2011 (UTC) | * I'd like to keep it. Some pages only need minor editing and it can be difficult to wade through all the wiki code in source mode. [[User:Shambala108|Shambala108]] <sup>[[User talk:Shambala108|talk to me]]</sup> 02:13, December 18, 2011 (UTC) | ||
::A lot of my edits involve correcting capitalization and punctuation mistakes, especially misuse of commas and semi-colons. It's much easier to fix these mistakes on a long page if using visual mode. [[User:Shambala108|Shambala108]] <sup>[[User talk:Shambala108|talk to me]]</sup> 00:32, December 20, 2011 (UTC) | ::A lot of my edits involve correcting capitalization and punctuation mistakes, especially misuse of commas and semi-colons. It's much easier to fix these mistakes on a long page if using visual mode. [[User:Shambala108|Shambala108]] <sup>[[User talk:Shambala108|talk to me]]</sup> 00:32, December 20, 2011 (UTC) | ||
:::How? I mean, why not just edit a section to focus your attention on a smaller part of the page? {{user:CzechOut/Sig}} | :::How? I mean, why not just edit a section to focus your attention on a smaller part of the page? {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}}00:54: Tue 20 Dec 2011 </span> | ||
* Although there are times when I turn it off -- usually when using non-standard formats -- I prefer the visual code most of the time. It gives me a better idea of the layout as I work. It's particularly useful in deciding paragraph breaks. [[User:Boblipton|Boblipton]] <sup>[[User talk:Boblipton|talk to me]]</sup> 02:31, December 18, 2011 (UTC) | * Although there are times when I turn it off -- usually when using non-standard formats -- I prefer the visual code most of the time. It gives me a better idea of the layout as I work. It's particularly useful in deciding paragraph breaks. [[User:Boblipton|Boblipton]] <sup>[[User talk:Boblipton|talk to me]]</sup> 02:31, December 18, 2011 (UTC) | ||
::If that's true Bob, why am I always finding tons if extraneous space in your work? {{user:CzechOut/Sig}} | ::If that's true Bob, why am I always finding tons if extraneous space in your work? {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}}03:58: Sun 18 Dec 2011 </span> | ||
:::Because I'm not perfect. I go through something, edit it, then later I go back and edit it some more. [[User:Boblipton|Boblipton]] <sup>[[User talk:Boblipton|talk to me]]</sup> 04:32, December 18, 2011 (UTC) | :::Because I'm not perfect. I go through something, edit it, then later I go back and edit it some more. [[User:Boblipton|Boblipton]] <sup>[[User talk:Boblipton|talk to me]]</sup> 04:32, December 18, 2011 (UTC) | ||
:::And I'm sloppy, too. When I'm busy concentrating on things like changing punctuation, I'm not concentrating on spacing. [[User:Boblipton|Boblipton]] <sup>[[User talk:Boblipton|talk to me]]</sup> 04:45, December 18, 2011 (UTC) | :::And I'm sloppy, too. When I'm busy concentrating on things like changing punctuation, I'm not concentrating on spacing. [[User:Boblipton|Boblipton]] <sup>[[User talk:Boblipton|talk to me]]</sup> 04:45, December 18, 2011 (UTC) | ||
::::No, Bob, you misunderstand me. One of the problems with the visual editor is that it has a tendency to insert additional spaces, [[Forum:Formatting broken by fancy editor?|as discussed a year ago, when I was quite willing to leave it be]]. Though this has been somewhat fixed over the last year, it still sometimes adds vertical spaces. It's actually ''not'' good at deciding paragraph breaks because of this. I wasn't having a go at your editing foibles. {{user:CzechOut/Sig}} | ::::No, Bob, you misunderstand me. One of the problems with the visual editor is that it has a tendency to insert additional spaces, [[Forum:Formatting broken by fancy editor?|as discussed a year ago, when I was quite willing to leave it be]]. Though this has been somewhat fixed over the last year, it still sometimes adds vertical spaces. It's actually ''not'' good at deciding paragraph breaks because of this. I wasn't having a go at your editing foibles. {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}}20:26: Mon 19 Dec 2011 </span> | ||
:::::By the way, Bob, remember that mess made earlier this year on your user talk page? That was entirely the fault of the visual editor. {{user:CzechOut/Sig}} | :::::By the way, Bob, remember that mess made earlier this year on your user talk page? That was entirely the fault of the visual editor. {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}}20:41: Mon 19 Dec 2011 </span> | ||
::::::Makes little difference from my viewpoint. I do a lot of editing in visual and source mode and I find it easier to do in visual.[[User:Boblipton|Boblipton]] <sup>[[User talk:Boblipton|talk to me]]</sup> 20:50, December 19, 2011 (UTC) | ::::::Makes little difference from my viewpoint. I do a lot of editing in visual and source mode and I find it easier to do in visual.[[User:Boblipton|Boblipton]] <sup>[[User talk:Boblipton|talk to me]]</sup> 20:50, December 19, 2011 (UTC) | ||
:::Let me see if I understand this. Visual mode screwed up '''your own''' user page to the point that '''you could not fix it''' -- and yet you think it's "easier". How does that work? Is it only easier cause someone else was willing to clean it up and file the bug reports with Wikia? {{user:CzechOut/Sig}} | :::Let me see if I understand this. Visual mode screwed up '''your own''' user page to the point that '''you could not fix it''' -- and yet you think it's "easier". How does that work? Is it only easier cause someone else was willing to clean it up and file the bug reports with Wikia? {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}}00:28: Tue 20 Dec 2011 </span> | ||
::::Several reasons. First, I don't care about my talk page. It is a cumbersome way of holding a conversation and that's the best thing I can say about it. Second, in terms of frequency of occurrence, I have seen perhaps three pages wrecked by the problem you complain of in my time here. In contrast, I have seen dozens of purposeful acts of vandalism and thousands of instances of people performing edits which I must go through, think about and re-edit. My log shows that I have performed more than twenty thousand edits. If the ease of reading reduces my edit time on the average article by five seconds, that works out to almost twenty-eight hours -- call it five days of effort on my part here. Five seconds strikes me as a laughably conservative estimate, by the way. When it comes down to it, my strength is words and how they fit together in English. The visual method, looking more like ordinary English composition to me. Those obnoxious coding problems that crop up very occasionally are things I can deal with in a small percentage of the time saved by the visual editing. Could I learn to use the source editor? I expect so, but it would take time to learn the ins and out. | ::::Several reasons. First, I don't care about my talk page. It is a cumbersome way of holding a conversation and that's the best thing I can say about it. Second, in terms of frequency of occurrence, I have seen perhaps three pages wrecked by the problem you complain of in my time here. In contrast, I have seen dozens of purposeful acts of vandalism and thousands of instances of people performing edits which I must go through, think about and re-edit. My log shows that I have performed more than twenty thousand edits. If the ease of reading reduces my edit time on the average article by five seconds, that works out to almost twenty-eight hours -- call it five days of effort on my part here. Five seconds strikes me as a laughably conservative estimate, by the way. When it comes down to it, my strength is words and how they fit together in English. The visual method, looking more like ordinary English composition to me. Those obnoxious coding problems that crop up very occasionally are things I can deal with in a small percentage of the time saved by the visual editing. Could I learn to use the source editor? I expect so, but it would take time to learn the ins and out. | ||
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:::::I've left one of the RTE-written DWM pages in place so you can understand the problem. [[John Ainsworth]] appears to be linked on the page [[DWM 439]]. But if you check out the "[http://tardis.wikia.com/index.php?title=Special:WhatLinksHere/John_Ainsworth&limit=500 what links here]" for [[John Ainsworth]], DWM 439 '''does not appear'''. This means that all sorts of reports, not to mention normal bot maintenance, are compromised '''in ways that we can't see by just looking at a published page'''. If someone comes to me and asks me to change the links to an article, I can't get to every single instance unless I know every instance is properly [[T:WIKIFY|wikified]]. | :::::I've left one of the RTE-written DWM pages in place so you can understand the problem. [[John Ainsworth]] appears to be linked on the page [[DWM 439]]. But if you check out the "[http://tardis.wikia.com/index.php?title=Special:WhatLinksHere/John_Ainsworth&limit=500 what links here]" for [[John Ainsworth]], DWM 439 '''does not appear'''. This means that all sorts of reports, not to mention normal bot maintenance, are compromised '''in ways that we can't see by just looking at a published page'''. If someone comes to me and asks me to change the links to an article, I can't get to every single instance unless I know every instance is properly [[T:WIKIFY|wikified]]. | ||
:::::So the question here isn't about which editor you prefer to write with. I get that the RTE is easier from the standpoint of a single editor making a single edit. The question is whether the simplicity is worth the fact that the next editor coming to the article may have to spend 30 minutes cleaning up after an unexpected code dump. Or that the ability to perform a tedious repeated correction with a bot is thrown off by the unexpected presence of URLs. Or that putting off learning how to use source mode means that you're less able to function when even the RTE gives up on visual mode and ''forces'' source on you. {{user:CzechOut/Sig}} | :::::So the question here isn't about which editor you prefer to write with. I get that the RTE is easier from the standpoint of a single editor making a single edit. The question is whether the simplicity is worth the fact that the next editor coming to the article may have to spend 30 minutes cleaning up after an unexpected code dump. Or that the ability to perform a tedious repeated correction with a bot is thrown off by the unexpected presence of URLs. Or that putting off learning how to use source mode means that you're less able to function when even the RTE gives up on visual mode and ''forces'' source on you. {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}}23:25: Tue 20 Dec 2011 </span> | ||
::::::I will second the What Links Here issue. As it's an issue that affects actual editors not just the bot that CzechOut runs through the wiki to make sure everything runs smoothly. | ::::::I will second the What Links Here issue. As it's an issue that affects actual editors not just the bot that CzechOut runs through the wiki to make sure everything runs smoothly. | ||
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*i tend to prefer to stick to the forums on this website, and at least there it is much easier to work with visual editor imo because if one isn't doing big fancy edits in the main parts of the wiki, it is easier for me at least to work with a visual or any sort of wysiwyg layout. also, as i don't know much about source formatting i am always nervous when forced to edit in source that i will accidentally delete a character or something that is important for the layout. i understand that for the main body of the wiki there might be bigger problems that could be fixed with only using source, but could you leave the forums the option for visual editing? [[User:Imamadmad|Imamadmad]] <sup>[[User talk:Imamadmad|talk to me]]</sup> 03:38, December 30, 2011 (UTC) | *i tend to prefer to stick to the forums on this website, and at least there it is much easier to work with visual editor imo because if one isn't doing big fancy edits in the main parts of the wiki, it is easier for me at least to work with a visual or any sort of wysiwyg layout. also, as i don't know much about source formatting i am always nervous when forced to edit in source that i will accidentally delete a character or something that is important for the layout. i understand that for the main body of the wiki there might be bigger problems that could be fixed with only using source, but could you leave the forums the option for visual editing? [[User:Imamadmad|Imamadmad]] <sup>[[User talk:Imamadmad|talk to me]]</sup> 03:38, December 30, 2011 (UTC) | ||
:Unfortunately, no, it's not a [[namespace]]-based tool. It's either on or it's off. If you're nervous about source editing, i recommend you start with the primer at [[help:editing]] and then move on to our guide to [[help:wiki markup|wiki markup]]. Basic editing in source is honestly not hard. And it's a bit faster, cause you're not having to wait for the WYSIWIG translation. {{user:CzechOut/Sig}} | :Unfortunately, no, it's not a [[namespace]]-based tool. It's either on or it's off. If you're nervous about source editing, i recommend you start with the primer at [[help:editing]] and then move on to our guide to [[help:wiki markup|wiki markup]]. Basic editing in source is honestly not hard. And it's a bit faster, cause you're not having to wait for the WYSIWIG translation. {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}}16:19: Fri 30 Dec 2011 </span> | ||
::If you're just editing on the forums then source editing won't be much trouble at all. All linking, and letter styling can be done from the keyboard and the use of the punctuation keys. I feel though, I should note our [[Tardis:Discussion policy]] at this point. --[[User:Tangerineduel|Tangerineduel]] / '''[[User talk:Tangerineduel|talk]]''' 13:15, January 2, 2012 (UTC) | ::If you're just editing on the forums then source editing won't be much trouble at all. All linking, and letter styling can be done from the keyboard and the use of the punctuation keys. I feel though, I should note our [[Tardis:Discussion policy]] at this point. --[[User:Tangerineduel|Tangerineduel]] / '''[[User talk:Tangerineduel|talk]]''' 13:15, January 2, 2012 (UTC) | ||
:::looking at the tardis discussion policy at the point i think you are directing at me, i'm wondering why can't the forums be my primary mode of contribution? i rarely see anything in the main articles that i believe i can add to. arg, this is violating the rule about getting off topic. i am genuinely sorry. but i would still like an answer. should i start another thread for that? [[User:Imamadmad|Imamadmad]] <sup>[[User talk:Imamadmad|talk to me]]</sup> 12:55, January 3, 2012 (UTC) | :::looking at the tardis discussion policy at the point i think you are directing at me, i'm wondering why can't the forums be my primary mode of contribution? i rarely see anything in the main articles that i believe i can add to. arg, this is violating the rule about getting off topic. i am genuinely sorry. but i would still like an answer. should i start another thread for that? [[User:Imamadmad|Imamadmad]] <sup>[[User talk:Imamadmad|talk to me]]</sup> 12:55, January 3, 2012 (UTC) | ||
::::No one is saying that the forums can't be your main contribution. If you just wanna hang out and offer your opinions, you're certainly welcome to. The point I was trying to make was that visual editor cannot be turned off ''by namespace''. It's not possible to turn it off in the main article space, but leave it on here in the forums. I hope that answers your question, but I'm not sure if that's what you were asking. If I haven't answered your question, please do let me know. {{user:CzechOut/Sig}} | ::::No one is saying that the forums can't be your main contribution. If you just wanna hang out and offer your opinions, you're certainly welcome to. The point I was trying to make was that visual editor cannot be turned off ''by namespace''. It's not possible to turn it off in the main article space, but leave it on here in the forums. I hope that answers your question, but I'm not sure if that's what you were asking. If I haven't answered your question, please do let me know. {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}}03:25: Thu 05 Jan 2012 </span> | ||
:::::Wow. Okay. I have to be honest and tell you that I didn't know [[tardis:discussion policy]] said that forum posting shouldn't be one's primary contribution to the wiki. I ''really'' didn't know that it threatened ''blocking'' for that editing pattern. Sorry bout that. Yes, if you want to protest that provision — and obviously my earlier post has betrayed the fact that I'd support you — you would need to start a separate forum thread. This thread is about disabling the visual editor, not whether it's right to block people just because the majority of their edits are in the forum namespace. {{user:CzechOut/Sig}} | :::::Wow. Okay. I have to be honest and tell you that I didn't know [[tardis:discussion policy]] said that forum posting shouldn't be one's primary contribution to the wiki. I ''really'' didn't know that it threatened ''blocking'' for that editing pattern. Sorry bout that. Yes, if you want to protest that provision — and obviously my earlier post has betrayed the fact that I'd support you — you would need to start a separate forum thread. This thread is about disabling the visual editor, not whether it's right to block people just because the majority of their edits are in the forum namespace. {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}}03:30: Thu 05 Jan 2012 </span> | ||
*'''Don't remove RTE'''. I am a total codemonkey for fun and profit but I side with the Wikipedia founders in trying to elevate the population to a code-free lifestyle. | *'''Don't remove RTE'''. I am a total codemonkey for fun and profit but I side with the Wikipedia founders in trying to elevate the population to a code-free lifestyle. | ||
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::As regards the visual editor, though, your attitude perplexes me. How in ''the'' world can you possibly believe that "it's a pain" but not want to get rid of it? That's rather akin to saying, "This cancer is a pain, but I can't be bothered to go through the inconvenience of chemotherapy." | ::As regards the visual editor, though, your attitude perplexes me. How in ''the'' world can you possibly believe that "it's a pain" but not want to get rid of it? That's rather akin to saying, "This cancer is a pain, but I can't be bothered to go through the inconvenience of chemotherapy." | ||
::It seems to me that there are enough things to correct around here because of good, ol' fashioned ''human'' error. Why add to our maintenance woes with things that are being introduced by scripts? {{user:CzechOut/Sig}} | ::It seems to me that there are enough things to correct around here because of good, ol' fashioned ''human'' error. Why add to our maintenance woes with things that are being introduced by scripts? {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}}17:08: Sun 29 Jan 2012 </span> | ||
ok, i have started editing more main articles since i last posted on this conversation and here's what i think now: source editor is easier to edit in, however i like to be able to switch between it and visual editor to make sure what i'm doing looks right. i know there is the preview button for that, but i find switching modes easier as it also means i can fix small things that are wrong with my edit eg spelling or word order while in an easier to read wysiwyg format before finishing in source to make sure the code eg links etc look right. so i think we should leave visual as an option, but make source the default. [[User:Imamadmad|Imamadmad]] <sup>[[User talk:Imamadmad|talk to me]]</sup> 10:30, February 17, 2012 (UTC) | ok, i have started editing more main articles since i last posted on this conversation and here's what i think now: source editor is easier to edit in, however i like to be able to switch between it and visual editor to make sure what i'm doing looks right. i know there is the preview button for that, but i find switching modes easier as it also means i can fix small things that are wrong with my edit eg spelling or word order while in an easier to read wysiwyg format before finishing in source to make sure the code eg links etc look right. so i think we should leave visual as an option, but make source the default. [[User:Imamadmad|Imamadmad]] <sup>[[User talk:Imamadmad|talk to me]]</sup> 10:30, February 17, 2012 (UTC) | ||
:But visual mode '''is not''' page preview. It's an ''attempt'' at WYSIWYG, but it's not true WYSIWYG. It is '''more accurate''' to use preview than visual mode to see what your page truly looks like. Plus, page preview is tested technology that's been working in MediaWiki since almost its inception. Keeping the visual editor around because you want a different stripe of page preview around might be more convenient ''to you'', but it doesn't outweigh the mess that is otherwise created by it, as explained upthread. {{user:CzechOut/Sig}} | :But visual mode '''is not''' page preview. It's an ''attempt'' at WYSIWYG, but it's not true WYSIWYG. It is '''more accurate''' to use preview than visual mode to see what your page truly looks like. Plus, page preview is tested technology that's been working in MediaWiki since almost its inception. Keeping the visual editor around because you want a different stripe of page preview around might be more convenient ''to you'', but it doesn't outweigh the mess that is otherwise created by it, as explained upthread. {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}}15:33: Fri 17 Feb 2012 </span> | ||
==Closure== | ==Closure== | ||
This thread has been kept open for almost a month longer than was promised. ''Everyone'' who was editing with us on 22 December got an invitation. Everyone's had adequate time to respond. The overwhelming majority of respondents have agreed to get rid of the visual editor. Thus, a request has been made today to dispense with it. {{user:CzechOut/Sig}} | This thread has been kept open for almost a month longer than was promised. ''Everyone'' who was editing with us on 22 December got an invitation. Everyone's had adequate time to respond. The overwhelming majority of respondents have agreed to get rid of the visual editor. Thus, a request has been made today to dispense with it. {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}}15:33: Fri 17 Feb 2012 </span> | ||
