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Forum:Iris Wildthyme: should she stay or should she go?: Difference between revisions
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Forum:Iris Wildthyme: should she stay or should she go? (edit)
Revision as of 03:58, 28 August 2012
, 28 August 2012Sorry for having to do this, but I'm being forced to change my sig, and clean up after it, by Wikia Staff
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So I think all of it should go — save, again, for those things that happen in stories clearly branded with the ''Doctor Who'' logo. What do we do with it? Create another mini-wiki, I guess. It'd be pretty easy, given the pace of development at [[w:c:factionparadox]] over the last week. | So I think all of it should go — save, again, for those things that happen in stories clearly branded with the ''Doctor Who'' logo. What do we do with it? Create another mini-wiki, I guess. It'd be pretty easy, given the pace of development at [[w:c:factionparadox]] over the last week. | ||
Objections? {{user:CzechOut/Sig}} | Objections? {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}}19:19: Fri 25 May 2012 </span> | ||
I used to wonder why Mary Tyler Moore had divorced Dick van Dyke -- clearly the marriage had crumbled when the boy had died and she needed to get as far away as possible. Why did she change her name though? | I used to wonder why Mary Tyler Moore had divorced Dick van Dyke -- clearly the marriage had crumbled when the boy had died and she needed to get as far away as possible. Why did she change her name though? | ||
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::Not so, Iris. The publisher specifies that Iris' people, called the Clockworks, come from another universe called "the Obverse". Yet, she's definitely a Time Lord from Gallifrey in the DWU stories. I'm not seeing how that's compatible with being a Clockwork from the Obverse in the IWU stories. | ::Not so, Iris. The publisher specifies that Iris' people, called the Clockworks, come from another universe called "the Obverse". Yet, she's definitely a Time Lord from Gallifrey in the DWU stories. I'm not seeing how that's compatible with being a Clockwork from the Obverse in the IWU stories. | ||
::Just as with other inclusion debates, I'm gonna need more info if I'm going to be able to integrate this into our "what this wiki covers" policy document. I need to know what the ''actual'' difference is between this and FP. As it stands, it really ''looks like'' Obverse ''are'' changing names to protect their asses, just like FP. I'm not sure I'd be able to convincingly distinguish between the two cases. {{user:CzechOut/Sig}} | ::Just as with other inclusion debates, I'm gonna need more info if I'm going to be able to integrate this into our "what this wiki covers" policy document. I need to know what the ''actual'' difference is between this and FP. As it stands, it really ''looks like'' Obverse ''are'' changing names to protect their asses, just like FP. I'm not sure I'd be able to convincingly distinguish between the two cases. {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}}15:10: Sat 26 May 2012 </span> | ||
:::CzechOut could you give more information on exactly what you want to exclude from 'what this wiki covers policy' (we need a shorter name for it). | :::CzechOut could you give more information on exactly what you want to exclude from 'what this wiki covers policy' (we need a shorter name for it). | ||
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Finally, [[user:Josiah Rowe|Josiah Rowe]], I do appreciate the signficance of ''[[Unnatural History]]'', but again, that's using a '''narrative''' to sort of force a practical, out-of-universe operating philosophy on the wiki. Again, inclusion debates are firmly '''not''' about narrative issues. It's about the stance that the publisher/author/copyrigh holder has taken. We can't give into narrative problems when determining whether to include something, or else [[John and Gillian]] will ''really'' be in trouble. | Finally, [[user:Josiah Rowe|Josiah Rowe]], I do appreciate the signficance of ''[[Unnatural History]]'', but again, that's using a '''narrative''' to sort of force a practical, out-of-universe operating philosophy on the wiki. Again, inclusion debates are firmly '''not''' about narrative issues. It's about the stance that the publisher/author/copyrigh holder has taken. We can't give into narrative problems when determining whether to include something, or else [[John and Gillian]] will ''really'' be in trouble. | ||
And I loved the reference to "For the Man Who Has Everything", just because it's a great story. Yes, they ''are'' all imaginary stories. But so are ''Sherlock Holmes'' stories and ''Star Trek'' stories. And ''EastEnders'' stories. And ''Faction Paradox'' stories. The question isn't which are imaginary, but rather which are set in the DWU. If they ''are'' set in the DWU, we cover 'em. If not, we don't. {{user:CzechOut/Sig}} | And I loved the reference to "For the Man Who Has Everything", just because it's a great story. Yes, they ''are'' all imaginary stories. But so are ''Sherlock Holmes'' stories and ''Star Trek'' stories. And ''EastEnders'' stories. And ''Faction Paradox'' stories. The question isn't which are imaginary, but rather which are set in the DWU. If they ''are'' set in the DWU, we cover 'em. If not, we don't. {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}}20:29: Mon 28 May 2012 </span> | ||
</div> | </div> | ||
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:I'm moving towards accepting the Josiah/Revan point of view, especially since I've read ''The Blue Angel'' a bit more deeply now and find tons of reference to the Obverse. Thus, what I took to be Obverse Books positing a new universe of their own is quite the reverse. I think they ''are'' just ignoring things for which they don't have copyright, as opposed to creating new names for things ''á la'' FP. | :I'm moving towards accepting the Josiah/Revan point of view, especially since I've read ''The Blue Angel'' a bit more deeply now and find tons of reference to the Obverse. Thus, what I took to be Obverse Books positing a new universe of their own is quite the reverse. I think they ''are'' just ignoring things for which they don't have copyright, as opposed to creating new names for things ''á la'' FP. | ||
:There still is the remaining question of these pre-DWU Iris stories, though. Why are we excluding them again? {{user:CzechOut/Sig}} | :There still is the remaining question of these pre-DWU Iris stories, though. Why are we excluding them again? {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}}19:34: Fri 01 Jun 2012 </span> | ||
::Good question. I haven't read those books myself, so I'm not clear on how close the Iris who appears in them is to the Iris who later shows up in Magrs' ''Doctor Who'' stories. If she seems to be the same character, just in a different milieu, I think they should be included. But if the character seems different, more like a case of an author re-using a name than re-using a character, then it makes sense to leave them out. —[[User:Josiah Rowe|Josiah Rowe]] <sup>[[User talk:Josiah Rowe|talk to me]]</sup> 00:33, June 2, 2012 (UTC) | ::Good question. I haven't read those books myself, so I'm not clear on how close the Iris who appears in them is to the Iris who later shows up in Magrs' ''Doctor Who'' stories. If she seems to be the same character, just in a different milieu, I think they should be included. But if the character seems different, more like a case of an author re-using a name than re-using a character, then it makes sense to leave them out. —[[User:Josiah Rowe|Josiah Rowe]] <sup>[[User talk:Josiah Rowe|talk to me]]</sup> 00:33, June 2, 2012 (UTC) | ||
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::"Coverage of Iris Wildthyme is allowed, except for the so-called "Phoenix Court" version of the character. Also disallowed are instances where the character has appeared in charity publications, even when such stories have been written by the character's owner, [[Paul Magrs]]. Thus, ''Marked for Life'', ''Does It Snow?'', ''Could It Be Magic?'' and the short story ''Hospitality'' are disallowed because these stories concern the "Phoenix Court Iris". The "first appearance" of the character is therefore deemed to be [[ST]]: ''[[Old Flames (short story)|Old Flames]]''. Furthermore, the short stories ''Iris Explains, ''Entertaining Mr O'', ''In the Sixties'', ''It's Raining Again'' and any other stories which were originally released as part of charity publications are not considered valid sources for the writing of in-universe articles on this wiki, nor shall even out-of-universe "story pages" be created about them. | ::"Coverage of Iris Wildthyme is allowed, except for the so-called "Phoenix Court" version of the character. Also disallowed are instances where the character has appeared in charity publications, even when such stories have been written by the character's owner, [[Paul Magrs]]. Thus, ''Marked for Life'', ''Does It Snow?'', ''Could It Be Magic?'' and the short story ''Hospitality'' are disallowed because these stories concern the "Phoenix Court Iris". The "first appearance" of the character is therefore deemed to be [[ST]]: ''[[Old Flames (short story)|Old Flames]]''. Furthermore, the short stories ''Iris Explains, ''Entertaining Mr O'', ''In the Sixties'', ''It's Raining Again'' and any other stories which were originally released as part of charity publications are not considered valid sources for the writing of in-universe articles on this wiki, nor shall even out-of-universe "story pages" be created about them. | ||
:Anyone object to that basic sentiment? {{user:CzechOut/Sig}} | :Anyone object to that basic sentiment? {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}}13:16: Sun 03 Jun 2012 </span> | ||
;; I think that the the last sentence should have the word "only" instead of "originally." If it is reprinted in a valid source, it should be permitted.[[User:Boblipton|Boblipton]] <sup>[[User talk:Boblipton|talk to me]]</sup> 13:55, June 3, 2012 (UTC) | ;; I think that the the last sentence should have the word "only" instead of "originally." If it is reprinted in a valid source, it should be permitted.[[User:Boblipton|Boblipton]] <sup>[[User talk:Boblipton|talk to me]]</sup> 13:55, June 3, 2012 (UTC) | ||
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::::Well, I can't really go along with "only" instead of "originally". If we were still including FP stories, the word "only" would allow in ''Toy Story'', because it wasn't ''only'' in a charity publication. Perhaps a more relevant current example would be ''The Wings of a Butterfly'' which is DQd in its original form but allowed as a BFA. I think the line might be more helpfully rendered without any sort of adverb: "... which were released as a part of a charity publication ..." | ::::Well, I can't really go along with "only" instead of "originally". If we were still including FP stories, the word "only" would allow in ''Toy Story'', because it wasn't ''only'' in a charity publication. Perhaps a more relevant current example would be ''The Wings of a Butterfly'' which is DQd in its original form but allowed as a BFA. I think the line might be more helpfully rendered without any sort of adverb: "... which were released as a part of a charity publication ..." | ||
::::And yah, Josiah, I totally thought of the situation where Magrs might have released a story over which he had total control of the elements ''for free''. But as you surmised, it's just easier to say that if it's charity, it doesn't count. Otherwise we'd end up with a very long exceptions list, where we'd have to parse each individual charity story ever made. Besides, there's the ambiguous of whether an ''individual story'' in a collected work can have a different copyright status than those around it. Can a single story be licensed where the others are not? I think the more accurate statement with charity stuff is that Magrs would simply be waiving his rights, so it's still effectively unlicensed. Anyway, point is that we really don't want to descend into evaluating charity anthologies on a story-by-story basis. {{user:CzechOut/Sig}} | ::::And yah, Josiah, I totally thought of the situation where Magrs might have released a story over which he had total control of the elements ''for free''. But as you surmised, it's just easier to say that if it's charity, it doesn't count. Otherwise we'd end up with a very long exceptions list, where we'd have to parse each individual charity story ever made. Besides, there's the ambiguous of whether an ''individual story'' in a collected work can have a different copyright status than those around it. Can a single story be licensed where the others are not? I think the more accurate statement with charity stuff is that Magrs would simply be waiving his rights, so it's still effectively unlicensed. Anyway, point is that we really don't want to descend into evaluating charity anthologies on a story-by-story basis. {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}}18:37: Mon 04 Jun 2012 </span> | ||
==Iris and Faction Paradox== | ==Iris and Faction Paradox== | ||
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::In other words, if Paul Magrs decides to let his character play in the FPU, that does not extend a sorta "6 degrees of separation" right of inclusion. Iris showing up in the FPU is not like Jed Clampett appearing on ''Green Acres'', Sam Malone appearing on ''Frasier'' or the Doctor rockin' up in Sarah Jane's attic. The mere fact that a DWU character appears in the FPU does not in any way mean that the FPU is a part of the DWU. It is a totally different universe, owned by totally different legal entities. And sure, other authors, like Robert Holmes, may allow their characters to play in that universe. But that doesn't mean that the Sontarans of the FPU are the same thing as the Sontarans of the DWU. | ::In other words, if Paul Magrs decides to let his character play in the FPU, that does not extend a sorta "6 degrees of separation" right of inclusion. Iris showing up in the FPU is not like Jed Clampett appearing on ''Green Acres'', Sam Malone appearing on ''Frasier'' or the Doctor rockin' up in Sarah Jane's attic. The mere fact that a DWU character appears in the FPU does not in any way mean that the FPU is a part of the DWU. It is a totally different universe, owned by totally different legal entities. And sure, other authors, like Robert Holmes, may allow their characters to play in that universe. But that doesn't mean that the Sontarans of the FPU are the same thing as the Sontarans of the DWU. | ||
::Logically, an author like Paul Magrs or Robert Holmes — who owns neither the DWU or the FPU — cannot have the power to connect the DWU ''to'' the FPU. {{user:CzechOut/Sig}} | ::Logically, an author like Paul Magrs or Robert Holmes — who owns neither the DWU or the FPU — cannot have the power to connect the DWU ''to'' the FPU. {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}}17:09: Fri 08 Jun 2012 </span> | ||
:::Even if we accept the logic that we can't cover those stories in-universe because we've decided that the FPU isn't the DWU, surely it would be appropriate to mention them in behind-the-scenes sections of [[Iris Wildthyme]] and [[Panda]], and in [[Iris Wildthyme - List of Appearances]]. They're part of ''her'' continuity, and we've decided to cover her. She just happens to have adventures in multiple universes. We could describe her DWU (or DWU-compatible) adventures in in-universe sections, and mention any irreconcilable side-steps in a behind-the-scenes section. | :::Even if we accept the logic that we can't cover those stories in-universe because we've decided that the FPU isn't the DWU, surely it would be appropriate to mention them in behind-the-scenes sections of [[Iris Wildthyme]] and [[Panda]], and in [[Iris Wildthyme - List of Appearances]]. They're part of ''her'' continuity, and we've decided to cover her. She just happens to have adventures in multiple universes. We could describe her DWU (or DWU-compatible) adventures in in-universe sections, and mention any irreconcilable side-steps in a behind-the-scenes section. | ||
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::::That said, we don't want to ''abuse'' the BTS sections. It's enough to give '''very brief''' overviewws of her FPU experience, and then just give people a clear link to her FP wiki page. | ::::That said, we don't want to ''abuse'' the BTS sections. It's enough to give '''very brief''' overviewws of her FPU experience, and then just give people a clear link to her FP wiki page. | ||
::::One of the key goals of having [[w:c:factionparadox]] finally under the administrative control of ''this'' site's admins is that we can create stronger links between the two, while making the difference between the two universes much clearer. Readers will instantly know from the colors on the page what universe they're reading about. So, Iris ''in red'' is the FPU definition of her, while Iris ''in blue'' is the DWU explanation. {{user:CzechOut/Sig}} | ::::One of the key goals of having [[w:c:factionparadox]] finally under the administrative control of ''this'' site's admins is that we can create stronger links between the two, while making the difference between the two universes much clearer. Readers will instantly know from the colors on the page what universe they're reading about. So, Iris ''in red'' is the FPU definition of her, while Iris ''in blue'' is the DWU explanation. {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}}23:11: Sun 10 Jun 2012 </span> | ||
:::::Oh, yes — I understand the value of that. But it's not like she's a different character in the FP stories from who she is in stories branded with "Doctor Who" or "Iris Wildthyme" on their covers. —[[User:Josiah Rowe|Josiah Rowe]] <sup>[[User talk:Josiah Rowe|talk to me]]</sup> 04:09, June 11, 2012 (UTC) | :::::Oh, yes — I understand the value of that. But it's not like she's a different character in the FP stories from who she is in stories branded with "Doctor Who" or "Iris Wildthyme" on their covers. —[[User:Josiah Rowe|Josiah Rowe]] <sup>[[User talk:Josiah Rowe|talk to me]]</sup> 04:09, June 11, 2012 (UTC) | ||
