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Forum:Is The Forgotten a reliable source?: Difference between revisions
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Forum:Is The Forgotten a reliable source? (edit)
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My point is that when you read that ''one'' story '''in its entirety''', you see that the whole thing is a dream. It is an intrinsic part of the narrative of ''The Forgotten'' that we're left unsure about what was real and what wasn't. Thus, it's not a reliable source for its '''own''' content — much less for its impact upon the broader DWU canvass. I don't think it gives us anything definitive about, for example, whether the Eighth Doctor was truly in the Time War. But this is the bit that gets mentioned about ''The Forgotten'' in a number of places around the wiki — always as if it's the absolute, gospel truth. I think we've largely taken each of these 9 vignettes as a true account of something that happened to the first nine Doctors, but if you get to the end of issue 6, a great deal of ambiguity is ''narratively'' cast on whether any of the first 5 issues have been telling the truth ''at all''. | My point is that when you read that ''one'' story '''in its entirety''', you see that the whole thing is a dream. It is an intrinsic part of the narrative of ''The Forgotten'' that we're left unsure about what was real and what wasn't. Thus, it's not a reliable source for its '''own''' content — much less for its impact upon the broader DWU canvass. I don't think it gives us anything definitive about, for example, whether the Eighth Doctor was truly in the Time War. But this is the bit that gets mentioned about ''The Forgotten'' in a number of places around the wiki — always as if it's the absolute, gospel truth. I think we've largely taken each of these 9 vignettes as a true account of something that happened to the first nine Doctors, but if you get to the end of issue 6, a great deal of ambiguity is ''narratively'' cast on whether any of the first 5 issues have been telling the truth ''at all''. | ||
Shouldn't we be a little less certain in our language about the events that are said to have happened to the earlier language? And especially with that most controversial account about the Eighth Doctor's involvement in the Time War, shouldn't we ''make sure'' we're couching it the language of, "According to an account that may have been a dream" or "Whilst in the grip of the Matrix" or something like that? {{user:CzechOut/Sig}} | Shouldn't we be a little less certain in our language about the events that are said to have happened to the earlier language? And especially with that most controversial account about the Eighth Doctor's involvement in the Time War, shouldn't we ''make sure'' we're couching it the language of, "According to an account that may have been a dream" or "Whilst in the grip of the Matrix" or something like that? {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}}'''17:31:42 Tue '''14 Jun 2011 </span> | ||
In "Don't Step on the Grass", the Advocate describes what the Doctor did after the events of the flashback, referencing the device he made in the story and mirroring the Doctor's comments after the 8th flashback in the Forgotten. Therefore the events of the story, or at least that flashback in particular did happen, as they were referenced in a story that wasn't a "dream" as you put it. --[[User:Revanvolatrelundar|Revan]]\[[User_talk:Revanvolatrelundar|Talk]] 18:45, June 14, 2011 (UTC) | In "Don't Step on the Grass", the Advocate describes what the Doctor did after the events of the flashback, referencing the device he made in the story and mirroring the Doctor's comments after the 8th flashback in the Forgotten. Therefore the events of the story, or at least that flashback in particular did happen, as they were referenced in a story that wasn't a "dream" as you put it. --[[User:Revanvolatrelundar|Revan]]\[[User_talk:Revanvolatrelundar|Talk]] 18:45, June 14, 2011 (UTC) | ||
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I can't understand why you see the entire story as a dream either. I understand your point that the Tenth Doctor doesn't have a clue what hes saying throughout alot of the story, but the flashbacks he has are solid memories that are helping him to piece together his own memory. The events in the TARDIS matrix also aren't a dream either, its just an environment within the TARDIS that is helping the Doctor get that bug thing off his head by providing him with the help he needs (e.g. Martha). --[[User:Revanvolatrelundar|Revan]]\[[User_talk:Revanvolatrelundar|Talk]] 18:48, June 14, 2011 (UTC) | I can't understand why you see the entire story as a dream either. I understand your point that the Tenth Doctor doesn't have a clue what hes saying throughout alot of the story, but the flashbacks he has are solid memories that are helping him to piece together his own memory. The events in the TARDIS matrix also aren't a dream either, its just an environment within the TARDIS that is helping the Doctor get that bug thing off his head by providing him with the help he needs (e.g. Martha). --[[User:Revanvolatrelundar|Revan]]\[[User_talk:Revanvolatrelundar|Talk]] 18:48, June 14, 2011 (UTC) | ||
:Well, it's not ''me'' saying it's a dream. It's the Tenth Doctor. He explicitly says in panel 2 of page 21 of issue 6, "Look, Toto, it was all a dream." {{user:CzechOut/Sig}} | :Well, it's not ''me'' saying it's a dream. It's the Tenth Doctor. He explicitly says in panel 2 of page 21 of issue 6, "Look, Toto, it was all a dream." {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}}'''19:24:09 Fri '''17 Jun 2011 </span> | ||
::And could you point me to this thing in ''Dont' Step'' that you're talking about? All I see is this thing in issue 11 where she talks about [[the Moment]] — but that's surely a reference to TEOT, not ''The Forgotten''. {{user:CzechOut/Sig}} | ::And could you point me to this thing in ''Dont' Step'' that you're talking about? All I see is this thing in issue 11 where she talks about [[the Moment]] — but that's surely a reference to TEOT, not ''The Forgotten''. {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}}'''19:35:11 Fri '''17 Jun 2011 </span> | ||
:::"When you turned the key in the lock" from what i recall is the direct reference to The Forgotten. --[[User:Revanvolatrelundar|Revan]]\[[User_talk:Revanvolatrelundar|Talk]] 21:37, June 17, 2011 (UTC) | :::"When you turned the key in the lock" from what i recall is the direct reference to The Forgotten. --[[User:Revanvolatrelundar|Revan]]\[[User_talk:Revanvolatrelundar|Talk]] 21:37, June 17, 2011 (UTC) | ||
::::::The actual, ''full'' line is: "I arrived seconds before you used [[the Moment]]. Before you turned the key and locked the war away forever." Fine, there's a bit about a key in the "dream sequence", but this line is completely understandable through just TEOT alone. The Doctor does describe the whole war as being [[time lock]]ed in TEOT. And we know he's the one who locked it. So he did "turn the key and lock it". This line reinforces TEOT. It doesn't positively address ''The Forgotten'' at all. Granted, it doesn't ''contradict'' ''The Forgotten'', but since the Doctor does ''explicitly'' say in ''The Forgotten'' that "it was all a dream", then we have to go, I think, to the narrative we know is not a dream: TEOT. {{user:CzechOut/Sig}} | ::::::The actual, ''full'' line is: "I arrived seconds before you used [[the Moment]]. Before you turned the key and locked the war away forever." Fine, there's a bit about a key in the "dream sequence", but this line is completely understandable through just TEOT alone. The Doctor does describe the whole war as being [[time lock]]ed in TEOT. And we know he's the one who locked it. So he did "turn the key and lock it". This line reinforces TEOT. It doesn't positively address ''The Forgotten'' at all. Granted, it doesn't ''contradict'' ''The Forgotten'', but since the Doctor does ''explicitly'' say in ''The Forgotten'' that "it was all a dream", then we have to go, I think, to the narrative we know is not a dream: TEOT. {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}}'''19:23:06 Mon '''27 Jun 2011 </span> | ||
::::But as we all know, the Tenth Doctor does, in fact, have his love of "pop culture" so the line of "Look, Toto, it was all a dream" could just be another pop culture reference. We also know of his use of pop culture to try and make himself laugh or feel better after something emotionally challenging or draining... That being said, "it was all a dream" is probably his way of shaking off that experience. [[User:TheTARDIScontroller|TheTARDIScontroller]] 20:15, June 27, 2011 (UTC) | ::::But as we all know, the Tenth Doctor does, in fact, have his love of "pop culture" so the line of "Look, Toto, it was all a dream" could just be another pop culture reference. We also know of his use of pop culture to try and make himself laugh or feel better after something emotionally challenging or draining... That being said, "it was all a dream" is probably his way of shaking off that experience. [[User:TheTARDIScontroller|TheTARDIScontroller]] 20:15, June 27, 2011 (UTC) | ||
