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Howling:River pretending not to know Clara?: Difference between revisions
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Howling:River pretending not to know Clara? (view source)
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This is my first time posting one of these, so let's see if I can get my thoughts out right. Also, I have to say I'm a big River Song fan, so I might just be keeping my hopes up that she'll return! | This is my first time posting one of these, so let's see if I can get my thoughts out right. Also, I have to say I'm a big River Song fan, so I might just be keeping my hopes up that she'll return! | ||
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Obviously there is room for every Doctor story to be reconsiderd with respect to Clara, though most don't need to be. But given the question of what River knew of Clara, and when, all the River stories probably should be (gently) reconsidered. Particularly the Moffet stories, like the Library. Just as we later learned there was a scene in the forest on the space ship which was not at all what it appeared to be, there may be something else to be "seen". Though perhaps if it's worth examining, it should have its own thread. Of course if River shows up herself and can learn about Clara, then it would all be much ado about nothing.[[User:Phil Stone|Phil Stone]] [[User talk:Phil Stone|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 14:18, June 7, 2013 (UTC) | Obviously there is room for every Doctor story to be reconsiderd with respect to Clara, though most don't need to be. But given the question of what River knew of Clara, and when, all the River stories probably should be (gently) reconsidered. Particularly the Moffet stories, like the Library. Just as we later learned there was a scene in the forest on the space ship which was not at all what it appeared to be, there may be something else to be "seen". Though perhaps if it's worth examining, it should have its own thread. Of course if River shows up herself and can learn about Clara, then it would all be much ado about nothing.[[User:Phil Stone|Phil Stone]] [[User talk:Phil Stone|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 14:18, June 7, 2013 (UTC) | ||
Phil Stone, "If Clara was everywhere, was she at the Library?": I was wondering when someone else would spot the possibility that River set Clara up to be at Trenzalore '''because Clara told her to''' -- maybe not in the Library but sometime. The idea that Clara, either in her future or via one of her "echoes", initiated the whole process of which she was the result would be another of the "bootstrap" paradoxes of which Moffat is so fond. | |||
"If River met Clara ... why would she trust Clara?" By the time Clara entered the Doctor's timestream, she was starting to remember the events of ''[[Journey to the Centre of the TARDIS (TV story)|Journey to the Centre of the TARDIS]]''. During those events, Clara learned the Doctor's name. If she remembered that, then (either in her future or as one of her "echoes") Clara would have been able to gain River's trust in exactly the same way River gained the Tenth Doctor's trust -- by whispering the Doctor's name. By then, too, Clara knew that River knew the name, so (a) she'd not be giving the secret away to someone who didn't know it & (b) River would know that it was the right name. (I was 89 earlier.) --[[Special:Contributions/2.96.16.231|2.96.16.231]]<sup>[[User talk:2.96.16.231#top|talk to me]]</sup> 15:02, June 7, 2013 (UTC) | |||
: Clara '''was''' in the Library, wasn't she? In the ''[[The Name of the Doctor (TV story)|The Name of the Doctor]]'', when Clara is in the Doctor's time stream, we see Ten at the Library, so presumably she was there. [[User:Shambala108|Shambala108]] [[User talk:Shambala108|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 15:32, June 7, 2013 (UTC) | |||
: Yes, Clara saw Ten & Donna from behind, as they looked out from the balcony (or whatever it was). I wasn't doubtful that Clara interacted with River in the Library because I thought Clara wasn't there but because I thought that might be a bit too late in River's timestream. If Clara needed River to set things up, there'd not be much point telling her so only just before she (River) died & when River was rather fully occupied, anyway. Catching her at an earlier point in her timestream, when River would have the chance to do something about it, would make more sense. --[[Special:Contributions/2.96.16.231|2.96.16.231]]<sup>[[User talk:2.96.16.231#top|talk to me]]</sup> 15:48, June 7, 2013 (UTC) | |||
:: This is such a brilliant conversation because we are all trying to figure this puzzle out! It's not an "I'm right, you're wrong" debate. I'm learning something from everything I'm reading. | |||
:: I only read some of the newest comments (above) because it's blowing my mind trying to follow the discussion. I'll get to more later. But a few things that occur to me: | |||
::: * The implications of Clara actually interacting in the Doctor's timeline throughout his life. I know that this is a new storyline and Moffat can't go back and rewrite DW history so I guess that we just have to take it on faith that the Doctor was too absorbed in whatever he was doing not to notice (until Christmas 2012) that he'd encountered Clara hundreds of times before. It does stretch plausibility even more so than postulating a Big Bang II! | |||
::: * If there was any foreknowledge on River's part about what was going to occur why would she (and the Doctor) tell Clara not to enter the timeline and then later try to discourage the Doctor from entering it himself. If she knew that Clara would actually help the Doctor's timeline, why would she discourage her from going? Because she didn't know this. Compare this to Amy...she had no way to know if Amy was even going to end up in the same location and time as Rory but she didn't discourage Amy from trying. [[User:Badwolff|Badwolff]] [[User talk:Badwolff|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 20:57, June 7, 2013 (UTC) | |||
:: River might well "tell Clara not to enter the timeline", if she already knew that she had done so & that Clara had gone ahead anyway. The same applies to "discouraging" the Doctor. Think back to Series 6, especially ''[[The Impossible Astronaut (TV story)|The Impossible Astronaut]]/[[Day of the Moon (TV story)|Day of the Moon]]''. River will go to extreme lengths to conceal her foreknowledge & to make sure events occur as they should. That characteristic can only have been reinforced (strongly) by her memory of what happened when she tried to change an event -- admittedly a fixed point -- in ''[[The Wedding of River Song (TV story)|The Wedding of River Song]]''. | |||
:: On the point about Amy: In ''[[Blink (TV story)|Blink]]'', the Doctor told Billy Shipton that he thought the same Angel had got him as had got the Doctor & Martha, '''because they all ended up in the same year'''. They also ended up close enough together for the Doctor & Martha to find Billy almost as soon as he arrived. There was only one Angel in the graveyard at the end of ''[[The Angels Take Manhattan (TV story)|The Angels Take Manhattan]]''. If River knew -- from the Doctor or from the book she had when they visited the crashed ''Byzantium'' -- that an individual Angel would always send its victims to about the same time & place, she could be fairly confident that Amy '''would''' find Rory again. We don't know River did know that fact about Angels but she behaved as if she knew it. (I was 2 earlier.) --[[Special:Contributions/92.17.167.53|92.17.167.53]]<sup>[[User talk:92.17.167.53#top|talk to me]]</sup> 22:33, June 7, 2013 (UTC) | |||
::: I'm starting to think that fans put a lot more effort into connecting all of the dots (or trying to) than Moffat (or Davies) does! [[User:Badwolff|Badwolff]] [[User talk:Badwolff|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 19:48, June 10, 2013 (UTC) | |||
::: Only '''starting''' to think that? (I've been 2 & 92 recently.) --[[Special:Contributions/89.242.73.239|89.242.73.239]]<sup>[[User talk:89.242.73.239#top|talk to me]]</sup> 01:57, June 11, 2013 (UTC) | |||
