Talk:Flesh and Stone (TV story): Difference between revisions

=="Doctor in the TARDIS"==

Shortly before the Crack appears on the spaceship, Angel Bob is communicating with the Doctor. At some point, Angel Bob uses the phrase "Doctor in the TARDIS hasn't noticed", a phrase also used by Prisoner Zero when in hospital referencing the Crack (In both occasions the words are spoken by another human's voice).

[[User:Carlo0904|Carlo0904]] 07:09, May 6, 2010 (UTC)

This could easily be a reference to the song "Doctorin' the TARDIS" by The Timelords/KLF (The KLF said the song was inspired by the Ford Timelord, which is featured in the music video, and the Car spoke to them and told them to become The Timelords.)[[Doctorin' the TARDIS|http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdTELokKfCk]] (Music Video)[[User:Jjmfdl|Jjmfdl]] 05:29, May 19, 2010 (UTC)

I thought I heard them both say "Doctor AND the TARDIS". Maybe someone who has the DVD (closed captions) or a script can check? As the TARDIS seems to be more "aware" this series, and more like a fairy tale (Moffet is quoted somewhere saying that), what with the Doctor calling it "you sexy thing" and saying "thank you, dear" when it gives him a new sonic screwdriver, I wouldn't put it pass them to mean "AND the TARDIS" rather than "IN the TARDIS" (as would seem the reasonable dialogue). [[User:Lmb02|Lmb02]] 18:12, June 13, 2010 (UTC)

Don't know if it is worth tracking, but in watching Silence In the Library, where Doctor Song is talking to Anita, she says, "The Doctor in the TARDIS.  Next stop, everywhere". [[User:Lmb02|Lmb02]] 03:33, June 16, 2010 (UTC)

==Angels Moving==

We see the Angels move very slightly when they grab the Doctor. One of the Angels readjust their grasp. It is obvious that this is meant to be obvious, and it is before the scene where they notice Amy isn't looking at them.

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Yes, but to be honest, I didn't see them move their grasp, so oops, it wasn't obvious to me ... [[Forum:Who7|Who7]] 16:44, May 3, 2010 (UTC)

==The Doctor's Jacket==

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: I'm sorry I offended people, I was in a bad mood. but how does a man wearing a jacket he once lost and telling amy to remember what he told her when she was 7 mean he's the doctors future self? companions trusting the doctor has always been a big thing, he just brought that up so he would completely trust her. This is rory's id badge all over again, it's tiny, it doesn't matter. The Time Shield explains all! I'm A Hydroponic Tomato! [[User:Bigredrabbit|Bigredrabbit]] ('''[[User talk:Bigredrabbit|talk to me]]''') 07:57, May 7, 2010 (UTC)

At first sight, it might just be a continuity error: it's just the two of them, so it's probably shot at another time (later, earlier) then the wider shots with the clerics, increasing the chance of an error. It's shot close, so if they only found out about the error afterwards, they might have thought it wasn't that visible (or just not used the wide shots) and put it in anyway. Or just the old saying: "If they can see that, there's nothing else to see". In my experience as a continuity supervisor, it's all stuff that gets tossed around regularly. But after reading all the theories above, and on rewatch, it seems more logical that it was intentional. It just seems too subtle to actually be intentional. You can see the doctor's hands (no jacket, sleeves down) in Amy, close, then when they cut to her hands, his hands come in and his sleeves are rolled up and the watch is quite visible. This second shot was probably filmed right after the first one. Furthemore, the countershot of the doctor is continuous to Amy's shot.

I may be reading too much into it, but Stephen Moffat is really great with the whole 'set up/pay off' thing, so having the doctor lose his jacket pretty clearly (has he ever lost an item of his wardrobe?), and the doctor might revisit moments of the entire series in the finale. Then again, it might just be too subtle, and I'm overthinking it. [[User:HerBN|HerBN]] 23:06, May 16, 2010 (UTC)

And a note to anyone who says the Doctor can't cross his personal timeline:

::Exactly, taking his tie off in front of Martha wasn't interfering with the events that were still to come. --[[User:The Thirteenth Doctor|The Thirteenth Doctor]] 21:42, June 4, 2010 (UTC)

I see your point, but it did make Martha think there was something weird about him (apart from the whole two heartbeats thing of course). ~Coolio~

"The Doctor in the TARDIS" is the specific phrasing used both by Prisoner Zero and Angel Bob. That's more than coincidence. It's a scripted clue to tell the audience that there is a distinction between the character they are seeing on screen and "The Doctor in the TARDIS" in terms of plot. There is most definitely another version or timeline for The Doctor, and that's the one that is being referred to. But all of this looking back to see what it was The Doctor told Amy when she was 7 is misguided. The answer to this other Doctor is in the end of Cold Blood. When Rory gets erased from existance, The Doctor tries to get Amy to remember him, and thus keep some part of him still in their world. And we now know that the crack is directly related to the TARDIS, specifically to an explosion that could destroy it. The Doctor doesn't need Amy to remember any specific thing about him - he just needs her to REMEMBER him, because something in the season finale is going to threaten to erase him from time as well. [[Special:Contributions/24.228.56.86|24.228.56.86]] 06:32, June 9, 2010 (UTC) Aden Nak

Damn it, but it feels good to be right. [[Special:Contributions/24.228.56.86|24.228.56.86]] 08:27, June 27, 2010 (UTC) Aden Nak

Until it is confirmed whether or not the doctor goes back from the future i think it should be left as a production error untill we have that confirmation lottie01 23:21, June 13, 2010 (UTC)

==Digital Spy spoilers==

[[http://www.digitalspy.com/tv/s7/doctor-who/tubetalk/a216420/ten-teasers-about-flesh-and-stone.html]]

I realize these don't always turn out to be correct, but at least they seem worth mentioning the the Rumors section. Well, some of them. I'll list them here:

1. Eureka! Galileo!

2. Amy: "Basically we've *** up the inside of a *******."

3. The Byzantium contains a forest. Yes, a forest.

4. Amy: "Seven."

5. There's a scene reminiscent of a scene from 'Doomsday'.

6. Amy: "Six."

7. What's the opposite of the moral from 'Blink'?

8. River has done something very, very naughty.

9. There's a very important date you'll want to mark in your diaries/iPhones/Google calendars come the end of this episode.

10. The crack. We finally learn what it is and what it wants.

11. Amy does something to The Doctor that prompts an epiphany. And a collection.

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10 certainly seems important. #8 implies that we'll get on-screen confirmation of the River-murder-prison thing. #11 substantiates the rumors that the Amy-Doctor kiss from the series trailer will be in this episode (although the fact that Amy is wearing the right clothes already did that). Of the rest, everything seems either vague or unimportant (except for #4 and #6 as fuel for the speculative "countdown as a story arc" theory). --[[User:Falcotron|Falcotron]] 21:37, April 27, 2010 (UTC)

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It can already be confirmed that 3 is correct, since we saw the images in the trailer for Flesh And Stone. Also, in 7, the moral from Blink was "Don't Blink" so the opposite is, obviously, "Don't open your eyes." And since in the trailer for this week, we've already heard the Doctor telling Amy not to open her eyes, this is obviously important. -- [[User:Musedae|Musedae]] 19:24, April 29, 2010 (UTC)

I'm sure these teasers are written by someone who has been shown the advance press screenings; so they're usually ALL correct. Only the The 'Time Of Angels hasn't been 100% correct, with a couple of misprints/misinterpretations, but generally they turn out to be right. All of these fit.[[Special:Contributions/86.138.134.150|86.138.134.150]] 16:04, May 2, 2010 (UTC)

==Amy==

In one of the clips released today (before the episode), the Doctor is shown trying to get Amy to remember what he told her when she was 7, which apparently upsets the Doctor as she doesn't remember. That coupled with the fact that she doesn't remember the Daleks at all further suggests something has been tampering around with her head. [[User:Adam 148|Adam 148]] 07:37, May 1, 2010 (UTC)

It may be total left field, but the Doctor told Amy that she had a great name, a fairy tale name when they first met and was upset that she went from Amelia to Amy. River and the Doctor mentioned the Pandorica as a fairy tale, and "aren't we all". [[Special:Contributions/71.7.130.217|71.7.130.217]] 05:18, May 2, 2010 (UTC)Mopps

==Amy's sudden attraction to The Doctor ==

It was incredibly out of character for her. Any ideas?

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Please sign your posts. And out of character? It's completely IN character. She's had four psychiatrists, bitten them, she's nuts, she took the risk of killing thousands of people on the starship UK and she's grown up in admiration of the Doctor. Plus he's saved her life. It's hardly sudden, she's had 14 years to fall for him. [[User:Mc hammark|Mc hammark]] 20:09, May 1, 2010 (UTC)

I agree with Hammark. This is entirely in character, though very unexpected. ~Fan555

I also agree with Hammark, Amy is CRAZY. Steven Moffat said it in an interview for DWM. - [[User:BillyWilliam3rd|BillyWilliam3rd]]

Her expression when watching him dress in The Eleventh Hour suggested she was attracted to him too I think [[User:Carnivius Prime|Carnivius Prime]] 20:28, May 1, 2010 (UTC)

I totally agree, Carnivius Prime. ~ [[User:BillyWilliam3rd|BillyWilliam3rd]]

Hang on, but he had his back to Amy when he was getting undressed, he had his back to her, so she wouldn't have been able to see his... 'naughty bits'.

Though we all have to remember that there's something VERY strange going on with Amy Pond, aside from the fact that she's crazy. I think there might be two different time lines running almost in sync with one another. After all, things don't seem to be working the way that they should! [[User:Musedae|Musedae]] 01:02, May 2, 2010 (UTC)

I agree - that whole scene really threw me off, and I'm not inclined to think that Moffat would shift Amy's character so radically without a reason. And there did seem to be something about her behavior that made the Doctor realize something regarding the 6/26/2010 issue.

"Remember what I told you when you were seven..." Is there something in the Eleventh Hour that we're missing, that might provide a clue? [[User:Bluebox444|Bluebox444]] 11:10, May 2, 2010 (UTC)

Maybe he is referring to when he told her that her name (Amelia Pond) is like a name from a fairy tale, which might imply something about her whole existence. Note that River did say at the end "arent we all" when the doctor said smthg about a fairy tale. Or maybe, he also said to her (when she was 7) that it is weird that her aunt left her home alone at night.. we never met that aunt.. maybe there's no aunt at all! I dont know what would be the explanation but there sure is some mystery surrounding amy's life..

It was not a shift in character. the fact she watched him strip signifies an attraction. he is the most influential figure in her life, has saved her and provides danger, exitement but also love and care. didnt surprise me in the least [[User:Wrathisacke|Wrathisacke]] 22:48, May 2, 2010 (UTC)

i think it was very in-character. she was a kissogram, these things don't stray too far from her mind. ~ [[User:BillyWilliam3rd|BillyWilliam3rd]]

I don't think Amy is crazy at all. Emotional wreck, yes, but I think the Doctor will fix her of that. I was surprised to read somewhere about one of the previous companions having been sexually abused by her step-father. Given the age and history of this program I didn't think they would let this kind of plot line happen. I looked it up and it's Peri Brown who was with the 5th and 6th doctors and the story was told in a book published in 2003. I don't know a bit about how the books are/should be treated, but if that book was published with the slightest appearance of affiliation with Doctor Who then I'm sure the BBC would have cared a lot about the story and could have labeled it as, I don't know, slander or something. I've never seen a 6th doctor episode so I can't say anything about their relationship, but it'll probably be something like that (the author of that book must have gotten the idea from somewhere). This doctor does seem to be reliving the personalities of his past incarnations--he's got a little of everyone in him so far as i can tell. [[Special:Contributions/199.111.189.92|199.111.189.92]] 00:17, May 6, 2010 (UTC)

==The Doctor's Age==

He's lying about it again. At the end of the episode he protests to Amy that he is 907 years old. Now, this doesn't correspond with End of Time where he claimed he was 906. And for the Doctor it can't have been more than, what, a week since his regeneration? Of course, he could have celebrated it in that week but there's been no mention of it thus far. [[User:Adam 148|Adam 148]] 20:18, May 1, 2010 (UTC)

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Somehow I doubt that the Doctor celebrates his birthday after 907 years. [[User:Mc hammark|Mc hammark]] 20:22, May 1, 2010 (UTC)

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Could you even ''begin ''to imagine the wax required for birthday candles? [[User:Ghadius|Ghadius]] 20:27, May 1, 2010 (UTC)Ghadius

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I didn't mean 'celebrate' as in 'throw a party', I meant, 'celebrate' as in, 'you're a year older now'. There was absolutely no mention of it until that point. [[User:Adam 148|Adam 148]] 20:31, May 1, 2010 (UTC)

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Yeah, but we have to think wether a year works the same for the doctor, with all the wizzing around time and space. Also, at the age of 907, would he even acknowledge a birthday?[[User:Fan555|Fan555]] 20:34, May 1, 2010 (UTC)Fan555

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He was probably just rounding off or something. I mean, after 900-odd years, surely you can afford to change the date a little. '''[http://doctor-who-collectors.wikia.com/wiki/User:Tardis1963 <span style="background:#0E234E; color:white">Tardis1963</span>]''' 05:39, May 2, 2010 (UTC)

That's sorta like what I keep wondering regarding time travellers returned to their own time their ages are hard to figure out. Say you go time travelling on March 12th (random date), you spend a year of your life visting various parts of history and then you return right back or as close to the moment you left as possible. Then when it's your birthday are you the age of years since you were born to the year you are in now or your actual physical age which would be a number higher to count for the year of time travel? And the opposite being like the scene in The Beast Below where the computer says Amy is well over 1000 years old when really she's only about 21. I think age starts getting really messy for time travellers as a whole and especially for someone who's lived as long and time travelled so much as the Doctor. How would he keep count? I think I just go along whatever figure he says and try not to think about it else I get a headache [[User:Carnivius Prime|Carnivius Prime]] 12:05, May 2, 2010 (UTC)

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Well I think you have kind of "two ages". You have your official age that depends on you brithdate. This age will be mentioned in calculations which can't know how much time you've spend outside of your timeline. And you have you biological age that ist just about how long you have lived (in hours or minutes independet in which timeline you were. Just the Time you "feel" living, without the time you skipped. This problem was earlier discoverd with Rose who was a bit too long time travelling. I think the doctor count's his physical age, since he would have to state a different age each time he tells his own age.[[Special:Contributions/78.43.114.215|78.43.114.215]] 14:35, May 2, 2010 (UTC)

The most likely theory is that the Doctor has forgotten his age. He claimed to be 300 in his first incarnation, 750 in his fourth, and 975 in his seventh. By that logic, he should be around 1300 years old, but that could be in human years, Galifreyan years, or he could have made up the 903/4/5/6/7 figure as he has lost count - being a time traveller, there is no actual way of remembering your true age, save for counting the days as they pass - and he's usually rather too busy for that. [[User:Unhari|Unhari]] 23:14, May 13, 2010 (UTC)

==Lunar Eclipse ==

Ok, looking up 26th June 2010, I've discovered that it's a partial lunar eclipse that day, and stonehenge is believed to be a lunar eclipse computer. Now where have I seen stonehenge before? [[User:Mc hammark|Mc hammark]] 20:25, May 1, 2010 (UTC)

You are good. To good. Are you sure you are not working for Moffat, trying to throw us off the scent? ~Fan555

I WISH. Let's just say, I'm very good at research. [[User:Mc hammark|Mc hammark]] 20:31, May 1, 2010 (UTC)

I hven't really thought bout it. But i have aways been intrested with Stonehenge and River Song in the Series 5 trailer ~ BillyWilliam3rd

Could Stonehenge be the Pandorica? River says the next time the Doctor sees her, the Pandorica will open, though I didn't notice River at the Stonehenge. Will watch the trailer again though[[User:Fan555|Fan555]] 20:38, May 1, 2010 (UTC)Fan555

Yeah, you can just see like the back of her head or something. Its hard to spot ~ [[User:BillyWilliam3rd|BillyWilliam3rd]]

OMG, have we solved the Pandorica Mystery!? [[User:Fan555|Fan555]] 20:41, May 1, 2010 (UTC) Fan555

I doubt it. Not really amazing research. The lunar eclipse is the first result if you just google "June 26, 2010".

Also, the lunar eclipse will be visible pretty much everywhere *except* Stonehenge: Asia/Australia at dusk, North/South America at dawn. [[User:Phasmantistes|Phasmantistes]] 06:31, May 3, 2010 (UTC)

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Still, there very well could be a connection to Stonehenge. It seems to be too big a coincidence to ignore.

By the way, I wonder if the fact that River will meet the Doctor "when the Pandorica opens" means that she's from our time...

[[User:Bluebox444|Bluebox444]] 11:07, May 2, 2010 (UTC)

I also find it interesting that she seems to know that the Pandorica is the *next* meeting for him. It seems like either of them knowing the exact order of future events for the other is rather unlikely, unless they start talking to each other much more openly sometime soon. [[User:Phasmantistes|Phasmantistes]] 06:31, May 3, 2010 (UTC)

==References==

Surely the 'forest in a spaceship, viewed through a frame' is a direct nod to 'Nightmare of Eden' [[User:Neil DG|Neil DG]] 11:47, May 2, 2010 (UTC)

Could Amy keeping her eyes closed and finding her way around be a nod to 'The brain of Morbius' when Sarah has been blinded? [[User:Neil DG|Neil DG]] 11:47, May 2, 2010 (UTC)

The Doctor says the Byzantium is a 'Galaxy class' ship. Definite reference to Star Trek (NCC-1701-D USS Enterprise was this class). [[User:Neil DG|Neil DG]] 11:47, May 2, 2010 (UTC)

You gotta learn how to write. And sign your posts. [[User:Jedman67|Jedman67]] 05:09, May 2, 2010 (UTC)

I've only just joined this wikia as my first ever Wikia and forgot to sign them. Not sure what you mean about 'learning to write'. You might consider being a little less abrasive and a little more welcoming. [[User:Neil DG|Neil DG]] 11:47, May 2, 2010 (UTC)

I think my current thoughts might fit here most: There were a few thinks in this episode which reminded me of other doctor who episodes:

In the forrest Amy asks the cleriks what happens and they answer her "The trees are going out" what is very similiar to "The stars are going out" from "Turn Left" with Donna Nobel. Another possible reference is the last scene. The situation at the bay reminded me of the "Bad Wolf Bay" mainly from the Rose Tyler episodes.

Another, maybe a bit far-fetched, is this one: Someone suggested in a discussion of another Episode that the Zero might be a Theme throughout the Series 5. Well, Amy actually is counting down to Zero but is stopped early enough.

Last one is that one: The Angel Bob says in the scene where they discoverd the forrest: "The Doctor and the Tardis hasn't noticed" which could be a reference to "The Elveneth Hour" when Prisoner Zero said: "The Doctor and the Tardis doesn't know" (Hospital Scene). Both of them, Bob and Prisoner Zero couldn't have much knowledge of the Tardis.

I know they are all a bit far-fetched but that's what I thought.[[Special:Contributions/78.43.114.215|78.43.114.215]] 19:40, May 2, 2010 (UTC)

==Double Doctor?==

In the forest, as The Doctor, River and Father Octavion are heading to find the main flight deck, The Doctor cuffs her head and says "Amy, later!" He is wearing only his striped shirt and his suspenders on his upper body. But moments later, he returns, with his sleeves ROLLED UP (when did this happen?!) WEARING HIS JACKET. She doesn't remember what he told her when she was 7. He's visibly closer, and more afraid for her at this moment. He kisses her forehead. Next scene, he's not wearing his jacket, his sleeves are rolled down and he's far more aloof. This is way too obvious to be a production error. It's Doctor Who, guys. That's way too big. There's something we still don't know. [[User:Musedae|Musedae]] 01:30, May 2, 2010 (UTC)

Why have you posted here: http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Talk:Flesh_and_Stone#The_Doctor.27s_Jacket.3D.3D and then posted this section? - Looq 03:00, May 2, 2010 (UTC)

Because I wasn't sure if it had gone through, as my internet went all wobbly. I'll go edit it out in a moment. ALSO: that section is exclusively about the Doctor LOSING his jacket, where as this one focuses on how he seemingly didn't have a jacket, then appeared with one, and then appeared without one within a two minute frame. [[User:Musedae|Musedae]] 02:08, May 2, 2010 (UTC)

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It's DEFINATELY a future version of the Doctor. He is wearing a jacket, but it's not even the one he had, it's a new one that he will presumably get in vampires in venice. So the future doctor comes back in time and meets Amy. Weird. I'll bet it's revealed in the finale when he passes through the open pandorical. [[User:Mc hammark|Mc hammark]] 19:20, May 4, 2010 (UTC)

Was it a different jacket?! I didn't notice, all I knew was that he was wearing a jacket. We shall see! [[User:Musedae|Musedae]] 19:17, May 4, 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, it was a brown one, not his old cream-browny coloured one, a darker brown. [[User:Mc hammark|Mc hammark]] 19:20, May 4, 2010 (UTC)

This has been proven true by The Pandorica Opens. Good call on how we would find out, McHammark! [[User:Musedae|Musedae]] 17:20, June 27, 2010 (UTC)

==Fairy Tale ==

Does anyone else find it interesting that when the Doctor tells River that the Pandorica is a fairy tale that River's response is "aren't we all". It brings to mind the several incidents when the Doctor has met some advance race and mention that he is a Time Lord that people have referred to them as a myth, a legend, or a fairy tale. This would seem to be another hint that River is more than just human and possibly a Time Lord herself. Of course, being Steven Moffat, every time I think that I can't help but wonder if I am just thinking what Moffat wants the viewer to think.[[User:Doorofnight|Doorofnight]] 04:54, May 2, 2010 (UTC)

::There's definitely some sort of fairy tale theme running through this series, with the Doctor describing "Amelia Pond" as a "fairy tale name," and, in turn, "the Raggedy Doctor" being something of a fairy tale for young Amy. I also think it's interesting that the Toclafane (well, the name, anyway) was apparently a fairy tale the Doctor knew as a child, and he had a similar reaction to mention of them as he did to mention of the Pandorica. Is it some other Time Lord fairy tale? [[User:TweedJacket|TweedJacket]] 18:33, May 11, 2010 (UTC)

Just throwing this out there but the Russel T. Davies series' ended with two female characters open ended: River Song, who we now know will be explained (at least in part) this series, and Jenny. Just wild speculation here but is it possible that Jenny and River Song are the same person? After all, Jenny can regenerate.[[User:Guitar Steve|Guitar Steve]] 12:35, May 2, 2010 (UTC)

:I think it unlikely that River Song is Jenny because a)that isn't how the relationship between them is portrayed, it is certainly left vague but there is certainly a very strong romantic and sexual charge to their relationship and River all but says that it is reciprocated by the Doctor in his future and I can't see either of them going in for incest, along with that there is the fact that Father Octavian knows who River really is and again all but says that the Doctor wouldn't be too happy when he finds out and since one would think he would be happy to find out his daughter is alive. And then there is b) which is why would the Doctor's daughter hide her identity from her father?[[User:Doorofnight|Doorofnight]] 18:33, May 2, 2010 (UTC)

^Good grief, what is that? -- [[User:Dragonfree97|<span style="color:#006400;">Dragonfree</span>]] 09:29, May 2, 2010 (UTC)

::I got rid of it, whatever it was. --[[Special:Contributions/152.131.9.132|152.131.9.132]] 20:35, September 14, 2010 (UTC)

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Oh god, I'm not the only one with that thing showing up. I've gotten into the habit of checking all my posts. I think it might be something to do with firefox, because it never shows up when I use internet explorer. Shall I leave it up so people know what we're talking about, or shall I get rid of it? [[User:Musedae|Musedae]] 16:16, May 2, 2010 (UTC)

Now that is interesting. I remember reading somewhere that Jenny was originally going to die at the end of "The Doctor's Daughter", but it was <u>Steven Moffat</u> who wanted to keep her alive. Coincidence? - Anon 14:01, May 2, 2010

River Song is not a timelord. Recall from Silence [[Forest of the Dead]] the Doctor notes he'd have a chance of at least surviving, while River wouldn't. Although River disagrees and says "You wouldn't have a chance and neither do I", you've still got to logically deduce that the Doctor at least knows she isn't a Timelord. [[Special:Contributions/92.21.63.165|92.21.63.165]] 12:29, May 3, 2010 (UTC)

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The logical argument to that would be that how is River so sure that the Doctor wouldn't survive if she wasn't a Time Lord herself(or at least REALLY familiar with their biology). Again, see the comments below, the Doctor not knowing she is a Time Lord doesn't mean that she isn't, as has been established on the show.[[User:Doorofnight|Doorofnight]] 01:59, May 6, 2010 (UTC)

More evidence that she is not a time lord is that the Doctor would have known. He says so himself in 'The Sound of Drums'. The only reason he hadn't recognised the Master beforehand was because the Archangel network was interfering in whatever sense he uses to detect other time lords. [[User:Burnup15|Burnup15]] 22:26, May 4, 2010 (UTC)

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==Duck Pond==

The Doctor references the duck pond without any ducks in The Eleventh Hour as something connected to the cracks and their nature of unwriting/rewriting time. Is this significant enough to go under the references section? [[Special:Contributions/92.4.29.75|92.4.29.75]] 13:24, May 2, 2010 (UTC)

It's definitely important, let me just highlight something; when Amy is questioned about the Duck Pond she's says there's'' never ''been any ducks which points towards them being erased before she time travels, if they did get erased that is. Or perhaps the ducks were part of her personal timeline and she forgot them anyway, like Rory *sniffles* ~Coolio~

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== Everyone Dies ==

Should it be noted that everyone introduced in this story (e.g. not the Doctor, Amy or River) dies? This is especially rare considering Moffet has penned a lot of 'everybody lives' stories. --[[User:Bluesilver|Bluesilver]] 10:09, May 3, 2010 (UTC)

== Rose ==

When The Doctor and Amy are standing on the shoreline and the doctor says time can be written, does anyone else think he's thinking about Rose

:

I don't think Rose will return or anything. But you never know!! [[User:Who7|Who7]] 18:06, May 3, 2019 (UTC)

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[[User:Hack59|Hack59]] 18:00, May 3, 2010 (UTC)

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I HATE Rose. I hope won't be returning, please NO! By the way, if the events from the series 4 final never happened because time was re-writen, doesn't that mean the duplicate doctor was never made? Rose is still rotting alone in the parelel universe, yipee! [[User:MidnightCat|MidnightCat]] 19:26, May 3, 2010 (UTC)

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It would also mean that the Doctor-Donna never happened. But that would mean Ten would still be travelling with her, and maybe "End of Time" would have ended differently since Wilf would have acted differently, and... oh this is just getting confusing. [[User:Librarinerd|Librarinerd]] 22:16, May 4, 2010 (UTC)

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Rose, Donna and The Other 'Childeren of Time' may all remember the events of The Stolen Earth because they were all Time Travellers and, Like Amy (Who remembered all the Clergy

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He was probably thinking about everything bad that ever happened to anyone he loved, and how it could be rewritten. Time travelers are unaffected by the changes to history, but the world around them will change. How akward it must be for them... Like, Donna's family might expect her to remember the Doctor because the memory wiped never happened, but it did to Donna, and therefore she doesn't remember still? This is super-diper, wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey. [[User:Delton Menace|Delton Menace]] 23:06, May 5, 2010 (UTC)

I think the crack just erases whatever fell into them, it's certainly hinted at, thus the Daleks would fall through and never exist, yet the events would still have happened, minus the Daleks. Donna would have had her mind wiped anyway. -whoknows

My First thought at that scene was "Thats Bad Wolf Bay!" and after rewatching all of its aperences I would have to wholeheartedly say that it is a homage to Bad Wolf Bay.

Ditto to the comment above mine, probably was filmed at the same place or something ~Coolio~

== Will River kill the Doctor? ==

It is possible it is someone related to The Doctor. Maybe The Doctor's father (we've seen The Woman which is believed to be his mother) or maybe his grandson (we never found out what happened with Jenny(The Doctor's Daughter)). But then again it is possible that the mysterious man is the child of The Doctor and River. Your guess is as good as mine.[[User:Invictus152|Invictus152]] 22:02, May 31, 2010 (UTC)

This great man that River is meant to have killed. Does anyone think it could be the doctor?

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I agree with Idji. That's exactly what I thought. And Hack59, the Doctor isn't that self centered. He'd be really, really angry if she killed one of his friends. [[User:Isop|Isop]] 16:53, May 4, 2010 (UTC)

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That is such a cool idea, she killing the Doctor when she first meets him! Maybe she thought he was very bad and did it deliberately and then she is filled with so much guilt the rest of her life when she finds out how good he was. [[User:Idji|Idji]] 17:54, May 5, 2010 (UTC)

Hack59 he killed himself to save Wilf, do you not think that he might be a bit annoyde if he was killed?! Not saying it was Wilf, just that it's likely that he might get a male companion who he likes. - whoknows

Okay, lets start with what we know shall we? River kills the best man she ever knew Aka, the Doctor. However this happened 12,000 years before the time of Matt smith's Doctor, he is a time traveller so that bits taken care of. The Christmas special coming up Moffat or someone else stated that this episode was the first time the Doctor and River met. It is stated [http://doctorwhotv.co.uk/rivers-end-9194.htm here] that River will die in series 6. My guess is that she will kill the Doc 12th not 11th how, I do not know, probably using the [[Vortex manipulator]] in the current day to go back and such be able to kill the doctor, having already died twice. Someone said earlier that River was not taught by the Doctor, however, in later episodes she says, "I was taught by you remember," or something like that I believe it was in TPO or TBB. Any thoughts?--[[User:Dannflow|<font color="Blue">Dannflow </font>]]  00:52, October 22, 2010 (UTC)

== Does the Doctor cause the cracks? ==

I said this before in the [[Victory of the Daleks]] discussion: Could it be that the Doctor (or the TARDIS) is <em>causing</em> the cracks? (The crack in the War Rooms wasn't there when the TARDIS arrived, but it was visible at the end.) In that case, how did the crack in little Amelia's room come about? The Doctor (possibly a future version) would have to already have been there. Maybe he told Amelia something back then which she's supposed to remember, but doesn't?

[[User:Hack59|Hack59]] 18:05, May 3, 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, that could be right! Because apparently, Caitlin Blackwood (who played little Amelia) has been spotted filming another episode with some other kid being told something by the Doctor. It could be in the finale and he... well, I can't get round the fact that he already knows and we haven't seen it. I actually thought he was trying to get her to try to remember something non-exsistent so she could cling on to her personality and keep as Amy. [[User:Isop|Isop]] 17:00, May 4, 2010 (UTC)

River apparently doesn't know about the cracks in The Time of Angels/Flesh and Stone. Evidence: When they spot the crack River asks the Doctor what it is and unless she is extremely good at lying she genuinly doesn't have a clue. What does this mean for The Pandorica Opens/The Big Bang? ~Coolio~

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Please explain! ==

I think that if the cracks had erased the Medusa Cascade incident then 1.Donna would be never gone,2.Rose wouldn't return to this universe to warn the Doctor and 3.the Doctor wouldn't feel guilty about losing companions and would travel with companions,even if Donna left him,which could somehow prevent his regeneration.I want your opinions! [[User:Jimmy10101997|Jimmy10101997]] 19:02, May 3, 2010 (UTC)

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I'm confused to. See my comment in the catagory ''Rose'' on this page. [[User:MidnightCat|MidnightCat]] 19:29, May 3, 2010 (UTC)

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It'd going to be something at the end of the series,possibly to do with the Pandorica opening - The doctor mentioned in this episode towards the end (I forget the correct line) "Yeah, for Now! But it's still happening out there, somewhere in time" The series will ultimately (probably) be them trying to stop the one that causes the cracks (backed up I think by another line towards the end - it's all you - the whole universe depends on me sorting you out right now) though technically if they stop the cracks from ever appearing the first episode is negated - thanks to Amy not being scared of said crack and wishing to Santa - not asking the doctor to come have a look, and so on - though I have mentioned before - Moffets head writer now and he loves his paradox's so who knows. but ultimately them stopping the cracks will stop the erasing of the Medusa Cascade from being and everybody remembers - though technically one could also argue that without the cracks this episode is pretty messed up too - agh I am thinking too much now.[[Special:Contributions/91.109.102.152|91.109.102.152]] 22:42, May 5, 2010 (UTC)

yes, you are all thinking too much. Because the Doctor is a time traveller AND a Time Lord, it kinda erases the possiblity of cancelling his own timeline out -.-. He's called a TIME LORD for a reason :D. besides, if Medusa Cascade war was erased, the time travellers wouldnt be affected and neither would the Doc10 clone or Rose and Jackie because they all used the TARDIS. Everyone who has used the TARDIS would not be affected by the erasion because of some complicated Time Lord time travel reason.

Plus, you would have to erase Dalek Caan's intrusion into the Time War essenially because Medusa Cascade was a result of his intrusion succeeding, so the Daleks came back and did Medusa Cascade. Its also possible that the crack on Amy's wall only affected her as we haven't talked to another Present Day Human since Victory of the Daleks, should be interesting to see what Rory says.... [[User:Ooiue|Ooiue]] 19:01, May 6, 2010 (UTC)

== Don't the Angels deadlock each other? ==

I'm getting a bit confused how so many Angels can coexist in such narrow spaces without completely deadlocking each other, just like the four original Angels did. They are clearly supposed to be able to see perfectly in the dark, and they all have their eyes wide open. How can they be as mobile as they are? (Also, how can they jump up to the ship after the grav globe had been depleted?) [[User:Hack59|Hack59]] 20:08, May 3, 2010 (UTC)

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The Doctor explained that the Angels self defence mechanism is instinctive (which is why they froze even when Amy had her eyes closed). Either they were fighting against instinct, or they were directly avoiding looking at each other, we're not entirely how the Angel's eyesight works, so for all we know they're capable of focussing their gaze to the point where they can only see their intended target and nothing around them. The Weeping Angels the Doctor trapped in Blink may have eventually been able to fight off the affects of the defence mechanisms to avert the and move, but by then the Doctor probably had UNIT or someone round them up and destroy them. [[User:Adam 148|Adam 148]] 20:17, May 3, 2010 (UTC)

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Hmmm... maybe that's how the plot is explained, but it's pretty lame. The Doctor definitely said earlier that the Angels are "quantum locked" and that "they have no choice". That always made it sound like a physical reaction to being observed (measurement problem anyone? ;-) ), not like a biological reaction that is in some sense deliberate. Hm, well, this whole episode was kind of laming out, everything was very deus-ex, and the final solution didn't even have anything to do with the Doctor -- the Angels were in fact just thick enough to do themselves in. [[User:Hack59|Hack59]] 23:56, May 3, 2010 (UTC)

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The Doctor says in Blink that they have NO choice. That their quantum lock is a "fact of their biology". While they are certainly Moffat's monsters, and he has every right to add to canon, this change made them logically inconsistent. He should know better as a storyteller that plot holes like that interrupt the suspension of disbelief. I agree that this was a very deus-ex sort of solution, and that it seemed like Moffat was just getting his kicks by trying gimmicks to scare the audience. It completely wrecked the wonderful scariness of the Angels to say, "they can't move if you look at them, and it's so much a fact of their biology that EVEN THE AUDIENCE LOOKING AT THEM freezes them into rock", and then to say, "Nope, we lied, they move if the characters close their eyes and their instincts don't kick in. Watch them move, aren't they scaaaaary!" I was NOT amused. CitizenX

There is one detail that no one else has thought of - not really a foolproof explanation, but it may help. Did anyone notice the scene in the Byzantium in which we were given a view of the Angels from the other side of the Crack? That would seem to imply that someone is watching them through it. That would make sense, I think. With the Angels' amazing speed, don't you think they'd have been able to get away from the Crack a lot faster than that? I think (and this is just a theory) that something had its eye on them from within the crack, but not all the time, which explains why they were able to move at times. The thing about the audience being able to freeze them isn't actually set in stone (pardon the pun). Also, even if the quantum lock is a fact of their biology, it would probably make them instinctively freeze whenever they saw someone coming, because they knew they would be frozen anyway. And, if all their attentions were focused elsewhere, they might just stay frozen without noticing that the person's eyes were closed. I think they were moving slowly because they were being cautious. Think about it. There's a reality-destroying crack on their heels; they're going to be TERRIFIED of being frozen, so they don't want to give Amy a chance to do it. If they make any noise, she might turn around and look, and they'll have lost more precious time. [[User:Bluebox444|Bluebox444]] 11:04, May 7, 2010 (UTC)

One other thing - when the Doctor talked about the Angels' "instincts" kicking in, he might not have been talking about the quantum lock. In fact, he almost certainly wasn't, as this would contradict "The Time of Angels", in which he said the Angels ''can't'' move if you're looking at them. It makes more sense to assume that he was talking about their instincts to avoid getting stuck, not to consciously freeze. While they weren't paying attention to Amy, thus being fooled into thinking she could see them, they avoided her so they wouldn't provoke her to stare at them. That way they could still focus on escaping once she had left. If they had caused her to get them into a staring contest, she wouldn't have left, and the Crack would have gotten them. Once they began to suspect that she ''couldn't'' see them, they moved slowly toward her for fear that she would open her eyes and freeze them. Yes, I know, this doesn't fully explain why they were frozen in the first place as she walked by. My theory is that the Crack itself - or something inside it - was looking at them until the moment when they began to move on screen. The scene in which they have the Doctor by his coat would seem to support this. He's not looking at ''any'' of them, since he's facing the Crack. The Crack is "looking" at all the Angels, and they're frozen. Yet there are times in the flight deck scene when they can move, therefore the Crack must not be looking at them constantly.<br />

Aside from all these attempts at explanation, I do agree that there are some weaknesses in Flesh and Stone. Some things just weren't adequately explained. I blame this on the many complex concepts the episode was dealing with, and the fact that the story was forced into a 42-minute running time. In other words, it's not entirely Steven Moffat's fault. [[User:Bluebox444|Bluebox444]] 13:17, May 7, 2010 (UTC)

Isn't it possible that simply through sheer number, unless all of them got deadlocked at once, that another angel could simply move another angel and cancel out the deadlock? That's over-complicated, but the only major moments we see possible perma-deadlock are the stealing of the Doctor's jacket and Amy, with her eyes closed. Even then, there's always an angel at the back of the pack, who, as soon as we stop looking, is no longer deadlocked. The only reason the angels in Blink were perma-deadlocked is beacause they are all equally deadlocked. So basically, if you have angels coming for you in formation, look at the one at the back.[[Special:Contributions/219.90.150.136|219.90.150.136]] 15:47, May 9, 2010 (UTC)