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Talk:Silurian/Appearances: Difference between revisions
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:I think the fact that not every story with the Doctor or Master in it is at [[Time Lords - list of appearances]] should be the exception, not the rule.--[[User:Scrooge MacDuck|Scrooge MacDuck]] [[User talk:Scrooge MacDuck|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 16:56, June 18, 2020 (UTC) | :I think the fact that not every story with the Doctor or Master in it is at [[Time Lords - list of appearances]] should be the exception, not the rule.--[[User:Scrooge MacDuck|Scrooge MacDuck]] [[User talk:Scrooge MacDuck|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 16:56, June 18, 2020 (UTC) | ||
::sadly for you the only others that bothered with the discussion disagreed. | |||
::personally i '''do not''' think that every recurring character's solo appearances should be removed from the species' LOA page (such as your Cult of Skaro example). however, Vastra and Stax are '''main characters''' in their own [[The Paternoster Gang Investigates|The Paternoster Gang Investigates|comic]] and [[The Paternoster Gang (audio series)|audio series]] - their appearances should not be included on Silurians / Sontarans LOA pages for the same reason as [[The Doctor]], [[The Master]], [[Romana]], [[The Monk]], etc. | |||
::i presume there would be more examples of '''main characters''' being separated from their species lists if there was a [[Humans - list of appearances]] page. however, there is not. [[User:DiSoRiEnTeD1|DiSoRiEnTeD1]] [[User talk:DiSoRiEnTeD1|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 17:09, June 18, 2020 (UTC) | |||
:::See, I sort of see your point, but the Doctor and Monk far predate the creation of the Time Lords, and there are accounts which suggest that's not what species they are, so that already changes things somewhat. Stories about [[Strax]] rely more on his Sontaran-ness than stories about the Doctor rely on their being a Time Lord, I'd say; certainly ''[[A Good Man Goes to War (TV story)|A Good Man Goes to War]]'', where he even wears the classic Sontaran uniform, seems disingenuous ''not'' to include on a list of appearances of the Sontarans in TV ''Who''. | |||
:::Also, the Daleks were also main characters in many different ranges. The Cult of Skaro were the main characters of ''[[Birth of a Legend (short story)|Birth of a Legend]]'', for example, and the [[Dalek Prime]]/[[Golden Emperor]] was the main character of ''[[Duel of the Daleks (comic story)|Duel of the Daleks]]''. Granted, both of these stories also include secondary Dalek characters that would still justify their being at [[Daleks - list of appearances]], but say Big Finish made a spin-off about the solo adventures of [[Rusty (Into the Dalek)|Rusty]]. I think these hypothetical stories, and ''[[Twice Upon a Time (TV story)|Twice Upon a Time]]'', should still be at [[Daleks - list of appearances]], even though Rusty would now be a "main character" in his own range. | |||
:::Also, the fact that no one who agreed with me had weighed in on the earlier discussion ''yet'' means little when A) that discussion was never officially closed, and B) not many people had weighed in at ''all''. --[[User:Scrooge MacDuck|Scrooge MacDuck]] [[User talk:Scrooge MacDuck|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 17:19, June 18, 2020 (UTC) | |||
::::who's fault is that when not many people had weighed in at all in over four years? certainly not mine, and i shouldn't be accused of avoiding discussion when one was open. | |||
::::so the [[Cult of Skaro]] have been main characters in a single story and are comparable to the [[Paternoster Gang]] who have been main in more than 30? as for your point about [[Rusty (Into the Dalek)|Rusty]] i think it would depend on how many appearances he made whether it would eventually be decided to remove them from the Dalek LOA, but [[Twice Upon a Time (TV story)]] wouldn't be removed when there were other Daleks in mutant form in that episode.[[User:DiSoRiEnTeD1|DiSoRiEnTeD1]] [[User talk:DiSoRiEnTeD1|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 17:26, June 18, 2020 (UTC) | |||
:::::I suppose that's our intellectual disagreement — I feel as though the ever-looming potential existence of a spinoff thirty years on shouldn't lead the Wiki to change its coverage of preexisting stories. The Paternoster Gang were not yet intended to become a unit, and main characters of their own spinoffs, in ''[[A Good Man Goes to War (TV story)|A Good Man Goes to War]]'', any more than there are currently any plans for Rusty to have a spinoff to himself beyond ''[[Twice Upon a Time (TV story)|Twice Upon a Time]]''. I think it would be ''insane'' if, suddenly, in 2035, we decided that ''Twice Upon a Time'' was no ''longer'' an appearance of the Daleks because of a random batch of unforeseen new stories. | |||
::::::(Okay, I'll grant you the mutants for the specific ''TUoaT'' example, but that's a loophole, a useful coincidence. You ''could very well imagine'' a version that didn't have the mutants in it.) | |||
::::::Anyway, I'm not ''blaming'' you for the fact that the discussion stalled, just saying you can't actually act as though that discussion ''decided'' anything. There was no conclusion, and the amount of people who engaged in the debate was so minuscule that you can't really draw any useful data from the statistics of it, I think. --[[User:Scrooge MacDuck|Scrooge MacDuck]] [[User talk:Scrooge MacDuck|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 17:35, June 18, 2020 (UTC) | |||
:::::::i do not see it as a "loophole". [[A Good Man Goes to War (TV story)]] contains both Vastra and individual Silurians, so that stays. [[The Snowmen (TV story)]], [[The Crimson Horror (TV story)]], [[The Name of the Doctor (TV story)]] and [[Deep Breath (TV story)]] only contain Vastra, so they are located at her page. | |||
:::::::not all recurring (or even "main") characters should get this treatment. but there is no reason having half on the [[Sontarans - list of appearances]] covering Strax-only appearances when his appearances can be found on his own LOA page. [[User:DiSoRiEnTeD1|DiSoRiEnTeD1]] [[User talk:DiSoRiEnTeD1|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 17:47, June 18, 2020 (UTC) | |||
::: There ''are'' other Silurians in ''[[A Good Man Goes to War (TV story)|A Good Man Goes to War]]'', but I don't believe there are other Sontarans than Strax. Yet though I can ''kinda'' imagine why you wouldn't want ''[[The Snowmen (TV story)|The Snowmen]]'' on [[Sontarans - list of appearances]] (although personally I ''would'' want such a story story to be on such a list, if we're talking about what I'd like to see on the Wiki as a reader), it seems obvious to me that ''A Good Man Goes to War'' is (among other things) a Sontarans story, complete with Strax being here as a Sontaran soldier, with the outfit and all — not yet a member of the Paternoster Gang. --[[User:Scrooge MacDuck|Scrooge MacDuck]] [[User talk:Scrooge MacDuck|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 17:55, June 18, 2020 (UTC) | |||
::::i dont think being part of the Paternoser Gang really has anything to do with it. the fact is that these two characters have appeared so much that the majority of appearances in the respective lists for the entire species is made up of their solo adventures. what if someone is wanting to look for other silurian or sontaran episodes? [[User:DiSoRiEnTeD1|DiSoRiEnTeD1]] [[User talk:DiSoRiEnTeD1|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 18:04, June 18, 2020 (UTC) | |||
:::::At the very ''least'', there should be a ''very prominent'' note on this page on the Sontarans LOA linking to Strax and Vastra's individual lists of appearances, and explaining that solo appearances by these individuals are omitted from the following list. | |||
:::::Because equally, I can ask: what if someone is wanting to look for the actual list of TV stories with Silurians with them, whoever they are? --[[User:Scrooge MacDuck|Scrooge MacDuck]] [[User talk:Scrooge MacDuck|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 18:28, June 18, 2020 (UTC) | |||
::::::is "This list does not include Vastra who has her own list" not enough of a note? it is as prominent as it can be, in my opinion, and matches the ones excluding the Doctor, Master, etc, from the Time Lord LOA page. | |||
::::::didnt understand your last point. if you meant somebody may want to know which episodes say Vastra appears alongside Silurians then they could easily compare the two LOA pages and see which ones are consistent. [[User:DiSoRiEnTeD1|DiSoRiEnTeD1]] [[User talk:DiSoRiEnTeD1|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 19:07, June 18, 2020 (UTC) | |||
::::No, I meant that I can (do!) want to have a list of "every Doctor Who episode with at least one Sontaran in it", whether or not that Sontaran happens to be [[Strax]]. "List of appearances of the Silurians" is a different thing from "List of appearances of other Silurians than Vastra". I would quite like to have the former on the Wiki somewhere. --[[User:Scrooge MacDuck|Scrooge MacDuck]] [[User talk:Scrooge MacDuck|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 19:09, June 18, 2020 (UTC) | |||
:::::there's no place for it on this wikia though, if you want that list for personal use maybe create it in sandbox? but i cant see why it would nee to exist. [[User:DiSoRiEnTeD1|DiSoRiEnTeD1]] [[User talk:DiSoRiEnTeD1|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 19:35, June 18, 2020 (UTC) | |||
