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Talk:Thirteenth Doctor (The Curse of Fatal Death): Difference between revisions
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Talk:Thirteenth Doctor (The Curse of Fatal Death) (edit)
Revision as of 19:17, 25 April 2024
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:Mmmmh. Thing is, that's not great for disambiguation purposes. "Female Doctor" could describe [[The Doctor (Exile)|a number]] of [[Thirteenth Doctor|different]] incarnations [[Thirteenth Doctor|of the Doctor]]. You'd have to go to [[Female Doctor (The Curse of Fatal Death)]] at which point you just go right back to having to dab anyway, and frankly what's the point? | :Mmmmh. Thing is, that's not great for disambiguation purposes. "Female Doctor" could describe [[The Doctor (Exile)|a number]] of [[Thirteenth Doctor|different]] incarnations [[Thirteenth Doctor|of the Doctor]]. You'd have to go to [[Female Doctor (The Curse of Fatal Death)]] at which point you just go right back to having to dab anyway, and frankly what's the point? | ||
:Historically we haven't actually needed confirmation of the "Numberth Doctor" form to use it without a conjecture tag. As pointed out by [[User:Borisashton]] in the ''Curse'' debate, the Eccleston [[Ninth Doctor]] wasn't confirmed as the "ninth Doctor" (let alone "the Ninth Doctor") until [[Series 3 (Doctor Who)|Series 3]] — and I'm not actually sure we yet have a source officially calling Whittaker "the [[Thirteenth Doctor]]" in so many words. Certainly we didn't back in 2017, and yet that doesn't mean we put a conjecture tag on ''her'' article. --[[User:Scrooge MacDuck|Scrooge MacDuck]] [[User talk:Scrooge MacDuck|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 18:39, October 3, 2020 (UTC) | :Historically we haven't actually needed confirmation of the "Numberth Doctor" form to use it without a conjecture tag. As pointed out by [[User:Borisashton]] in the ''Curse'' debate, the Eccleston [[Ninth Doctor]] wasn't confirmed as the "ninth Doctor" (let alone "the Ninth Doctor") until [[Series 3 (Doctor Who 2005)|Series 3]] — and I'm not actually sure we yet have a source officially calling Whittaker "the [[Thirteenth Doctor]]" in so many words. Certainly we didn't back in 2017, and yet that doesn't mean we put a conjecture tag on ''her'' article. --[[User:Scrooge MacDuck|Scrooge MacDuck]] [[User talk:Scrooge MacDuck|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 18:39, October 3, 2020 (UTC) | ||
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:::::Should we really be pandering to someone who is posting their confusion on Twitter rather than... clicking on the link and seeing that it is a completely different Doctor? Where would this stop? Would we have to specify ''[[Holding Pattern (FP short story)]]'' and ''[[Holding Pattern (Parkin short story)]]'' rather than simply ''Holding Pattern'' (which is currently the case) in every infobox just in case someone would get confused without going to the page first? [[User:DrWHOCorrieFan|DrWHOCorrieFan]] [[User talk:DrWHOCorrieFan|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 23:13, 5 February 2023 (UTC) | :::::Should we really be pandering to someone who is posting their confusion on Twitter rather than... clicking on the link and seeing that it is a completely different Doctor? Where would this stop? Would we have to specify ''[[Holding Pattern (FP short story)]]'' and ''[[Holding Pattern (Parkin short story)]]'' rather than simply ''Holding Pattern'' (which is currently the case) in every infobox just in case someone would get confused without going to the page first? [[User:DrWHOCorrieFan|DrWHOCorrieFan]] [[User talk:DrWHOCorrieFan|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 23:13, 5 February 2023 (UTC) | ||
:::::: [Edit conflict] I've moved that Master's placement to "more ambiguous" as per [[T:BOUND]]. | |||
:::::: Also, it's not "pandering", Corrie, as there are multiple genuine reasons why these pages must be renamed and the failure to do so is contravening precedent set by [[Fugitive Doctor]], [[Unbound Doctor]], and [[Fourteenth Doctor]]. The Twitter post is just further evidence that the pages need to be renamed. {{User:Epsilon the Eternal/signature}} 23:16, 5 February 2023 (UTC) | |||
::::::: What precedent do they set? Those are just the names most commonly used by the Fandom/official sources, and if I'm not mistaken the titles most commonly used for these characters are Doctors 8 through 13? Nobody calls them the Female Doctor, etc, that is just as confusing as to the main audience Jodie is "the Female Doctor". [[User:DrWHOCorrieFan|DrWHOCorrieFan]] [[User talk:DrWHOCorrieFan|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 23:20, 5 February 2023 (UTC) | |||
Scrooge's edits to that effect says the following Jack: | |||
: Also, "Tomorrow Windows" and common sense place 'Curse' in some kind of "alternate future" | |||
:Please, everyone stop removing Pryce from "Other realities": "Tomorrow Windows" places the events of Curse in a possible future, so at first approximation this is the best place to put him. The article itself can deal with the sliver of ambiguity. | |||
I note that this interpretation of Tomorrow Windows is a standard one but, I think, incorrect, given Morris's own comments on the subject. (Which I was bringing up in [[Tardis:Temporary forums/Archive/An update to T:VS]] at the exact same time as he was making these edits.) I wouldn't consider that earlier placement to be indicative of current policy. [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 23:22, 5 February 2023 (UTC) | |||
I actually agree with Corrie on this one. Nobody actually calls them that since that one-time credit. [[User:Danniesen|Danniesen]] [[User talk:Danniesen|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 08:27, 6 February 2023 (UTC) | |||
: TBH I've actually seen these names crop up now and then, which I can't say for the numerical names. And let me just reiterate, the numerical names are not the official names! Off the top of my head, the only time I've heard any of them be used was when [[Lawrence Miles]] wrote about his unwritten novel ''[[The War (novel)|The War]]''. Yes the descriptive names aren't used often, but they ''are'' used more than the numerical names. {{User:Epsilon the Eternal/signature}} 09:30, 6 February 2023 (UTC) | |||
:: I think we underestimate how influential the wiki can be in what we name our articles. Because of mistakes in naming articles, Jared Rahman became [[Jared Ramon]] in ''Quicksilver'', the reservoir of pain/river of evil became the [[reservoir of evil]] in some ''P.R.O.B.E.'' story and Jack McSpringheel became accepted as [[Jack (The Kraken's Lament)|Jack]]'s name despite being a one-off alias. If people don't refer to these characters by the non-conjectural names that they have, the wiki's naming probably has a part in that. [[User:Jack "BtR" Saxon|Jack "BtR" Saxon]] [[User talk:Jack "BtR" Saxon|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 10:58, 6 February 2023 (UTC) | |||
:: Agreed. Baffling to complain about the names only having been used once when the characters themselves have only ever appeared once. And it's not even true, as the names have also been used in DWM. These moves should have been carried out years ago. [[User:PintlessMan|PintlessMan]] [[User talk:PintlessMan|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 13:24, 6 February 2023 (UTC) | |||
:::I didn't like the funny ''Curse of Fatal Death'' names for a long time, but the fact of the matter is that ''Curse of Fatal Death'' is a funny story, so it suits them. That said, undabbed this title would be far too ambiguous, so I continue to support [[Female Doctor (The Curse of Fatal Death)]] as this page's name. – [[User:NateBumber|n8]] ([[User talk:NateBumber|☎]]) 14:00, 6 February 2023 (UTC) | |||
::::Thoroughly ambivalent on much of the issue. I honestly can't imagine how someone would look at these moves and consider them high on the priority list. (I also note, Epsilon, that you shouldn't have edited [[The Master]] until there was consensus here. That's not less confusing and is also a violation of [[T:BOUND]].) Obviously it's frustrating that this has been going on for 2 years, but it's also one where there's noticeable disagreement and it's not important. I think the arguments for the move are, quite honestly, appallingly bad, which the exception of the plain and simple fact that this is what they're called in the script. (Notably, I do not think that they clear up confusion in the slightest. I'm with Boris on this issue.) But if you all want to make the move, I don't really have strong objections either, '''provided the dab terms remain in place.''' (Note also that this discussion began because of the conjecture tag on this article which '''''does not belong''''' given the current name, and should be removed in the interim.) [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 22:02, 6 February 2023 (UTC) | |||
Here's my thoughts. Out there in the boundless eternity of ''Who'' stories, I'm sure you could find a ''Short Trips'' story or the likes that makes up a cute little unique name for each Doctor. Maybe the [[Fourth Doctor]] is "The Scarfy Doctor," maybe the First Doctor is "The FUSSY Doctor", etc. But if you went to [[Talk:Fourth Doctor]], and proposed we rename that page [[The Scarfy Doctor]], it would not be seriously considered. Because that is not the page name people are going to know to look for. | |||
I think renaming the ''Curse'' Doctors based on anything but the numbering is just not reasonable. ''There is nothing wrong with a DAB''. ''We should not be scared of using a DAB''. [[Thirteenth Doctor (The Curse of Fatal Death)]] is simply the best name for this page, [[The Female Doctor]] or [[The Female Doctor (The Curse of Fatal Death)]] are ''horrible alternatives''. Even the fact that "The Female Doctor" currently redirects to this page is already something I disagree with, because it implies that no other female Doctors have ever existed! | |||
In short, I think this is very much not a good idea. [[User:OttselSpy25|OS25]][[User Talk:OttselSpy25|🤙☎️]] 20:05, 5 March 2023 (UTC) | |||
: I want to point out that, additionally, since these names came from either the script or the documentary (or both? I find it confusing I'll admit) we would need to add [[:Template:Conjecture]] to all of these pages if these renames went through. Because no in-universe stories have ever used these names, we can't cite the names within the main article. | |||
: Switching from pagenames which are ''not conjecture'' to ones which ''are'' seems like a major major setback. [[User:OttselSpy25|OS25]][[User Talk:OttselSpy25|🤙☎️]] 20:54, 5 March 2023 (UTC) | |||
:: No conjecture tag is needed, in the same way [[Fugitive Doctor]] didn't need one when that page was renamed (although it should be noted now that the name has been used in valid sources). [[Meta-Crisis Doctor]] hasn't been used in a valid source (AFAIK) but it is a universally recognised name, hence why we use it how we do. | |||
:: Still, now it has been over three years and five months since I opened this talk page, countless hours of discussion between ourselves, and confusion online when people see the "Thirteenth Doctor" listed as a partner in [[the Master]]'s infobox because we don't call her the "Female Doctor" like she was intended to be, can we do the renames now? | |||
:: Policy and precedent fully supports it, so there is no refuting it, and the compromise has been met between people supporting the renames that dab terms should continue to be used to aid searchability and SEO. {{User:Epsilon the Eternal/signature}} 20:13, 12 January 2024 (UTC) | |||
::: I agree that renaming of ''The Curse of Fatal Death'' Doctors is long overdue. [[User:BananaClownMan|BananaClownMan]] [[User talk:BananaClownMan|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 20:20, 12 January 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::: I will also note that have found further uses of "Quite Handsome Doctor" in official media: | |||
:::: From [[DWM 366]]'s ''No One Can Hear You Scream'': | |||
{{quote|The bloke who was so superb in Withnail and I and wasn’t Paul McGann. The Quite Handsome Doctor in that 1999 Comic Relief skit, The Curse of Fatal Death. Yes, that’s the man.<br>[...]<br>How does Richard deal with his own sex symbol status? He was, after all, the Quite Handsome Doctor…|[[DWM 366]] - No One Can Hear You Scream}} | |||
:::: And in a 2012 BBC News article discussing Grant's return to ''Who'' as [[Walter Simeon]], it uses both "Quite Handsome Doctor" and "Tenth Doctor". Although I'm not sure if it 100% reliable as it does also say that the Doctors are unofficial, which isn't the case as the special was made by the BBC. | |||
{{quote|Grant also played an unofficial "Tenth Doctor", aka "The Quite Handsome Doctor", in a 1996 Comic Relief sketch.|[https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-19149261 source]}} | |||
:::: So "Quite Handsome Doctor" has been used across multiple years. This does also mean that the ordinal name has been used once, so keeping it as a redirect is especially important. {{User:Epsilon the Eternal/signature}} 20:39, 12 January 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::: It's been 1281 days, or just over three years snd six months, since I opened this topic. Can it be closed already? {{User:Epsilon the Eternal/signature}} 23:55, 5 April 2024 (UTC) | |||
== Just FYI == | == Just FYI == | ||
This talk page is word-for-word duplicated at the highly inappropriately named [[Talk:Stupid whore (The Curse of Fatal Death)]], which was created by a Nazi who has been making similar such vandalism (most of which now reverted/removed) on other women and minorities pages. [[User:NightmareofEden|NightmareofEden]] [[User talk:NightmareofEden|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 11:58, 13 February 2021 (UTC) | This talk page is word-for-word duplicated at the highly inappropriately named [[Talk:Stupid whore (The Curse of Fatal Death)]], which was created by a Nazi who has been making similar such vandalism (most of which now reverted/removed) on other women and minorities pages. [[User:NightmareofEden|NightmareofEden]] [[User talk:NightmareofEden|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 11:58, 13 February 2021 (UTC) | ||
