Forum:Temporary forums/Subpages 2.0: Difference between revisions

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{{retitle|{{SUBPAGENAME}}}}[[Category:Temporary forums]]
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{{archive}}[[Category:Policy changers|{{SUBPAGENAME}}]]
== Introduction ==
== Introduction ==
A few weeks ago, we finished [[Tardis:Temporary forums/Archive/Subpage policy|our discussion of subpage policy]]. In that thread I suggested a wide array of potential subpage types, but the only ones which were ultimately approved were <code><nowiki>[[/Appearances]]</nowiki></code> and <code><nowiki>[[/Covers]]</nowiki></code>. These have both seen broad acceptance across the wiki: all lists of appearances have been moved to their new homes (hello [[Ninth Doctor/Appearances]]!), as have all cover pages (eg [[Faction Paradox (series)/Covers]]).
A few weeks ago, we finished [[Tardis:Temporary forums/Archive/Subpage policy|our discussion of subpage policy]]. In that thread I suggested a wide array of potential subpage types, but the only ones which were ultimately approved were <code><nowiki>[[/Appearances]]</nowiki></code> and <code><nowiki>[[/Covers]]</nowiki></code>. These have both seen broad acceptance across the wiki: all lists of appearances have been moved to their new homes (hello [[Ninth Doctor/Appearances]]!), as have all cover pages (eg [[Faction Paradox (series)/Covers]]).
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You do realize Zagreus is the worst possible example you could give for this, yes? Our tv coverage is already fairly sparse, isn't it? [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 19:50, 25 March 2023 (UTC)
You do realize Zagreus is the worst possible example you could give for this, yes? Our tv coverage is already fairly sparse, isn't it? [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 19:50, 25 March 2023 (UTC)
:::I'd say our TV coverage is anything but sparse. [[Heaven Sent (TV story)#Plot]] is over 3500 words, and for Classic, it can get much longer: [[The War Games (TV story)#Plot]] is over three times as long! – [[User:NateBumber|n8]] ([[User talk:NateBumber|☎]]) 17:30, 4 April 2023 (UTC)


: Why is it the worst possible example that I could have given? [[User:Bongolium500|<span title="aka Bongolium500">Bongo50</span>]] [[User talk:Bongolium500|<span title="talk to me">☎</span>]] 23:31, 25 March 2023 (UTC)
: Why is it the worst possible example that I could have given? [[User:Bongolium500|<span title="aka Bongolium500">Bongo50</span>]] [[User talk:Bongolium500|<span title="talk to me">☎</span>]] 23:31, 25 March 2023 (UTC)
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::::: I could see that being very useful. [[User:Bongolium500|<span title="aka Bongolium500">Bongo50</span>]] [[User talk:Bongolium500|<span title="talk to me">☎</span>]] 00:31, 26 March 2023 (UTC)
::::: I could see that being very useful. [[User:Bongolium500|<span title="aka Bongolium500">Bongo50</span>]] [[User talk:Bongolium500|<span title="talk to me">☎</span>]] 00:31, 26 March 2023 (UTC)
:::Najawin, I just mocked up for ''Zagreus'': "Following the explosion of an anti-time casket in the TARDIS, both the Eighth Doctor and the TARDIS are infected with Zagreus and have to fight for control of themselves. During its struggle, the TARDIS takes the Doctor and Charley through a series of separate holographic projections. Through these, Charley learns that the Divergence was trapped outside time by Rassilon, and she witnesses three times it reentered history: at the Foundry in ancient Gallifrey; during the Dionysus Project on 20th century Earth; and in Winkle's Wonderland near the end of the universe. From his Dark Tower, Rassilon ensnares President Romana and Leela in his plot to ally with the TARDIS' Zagreus personality, embodied in the form of the Brigadier, to stop the Divergents. However, with Charley's help, the Doctor defeats Rassilon and the Divergents both by giving in to Zagreus. To stop this Zagreus personality from reemerging, the Doctor leaves for exile in the Divergent Universe, and Charlie stows away on board."
:::Does it capture every detail? No. But is it an accurate overview and sufficient to meet the goals Bongo has described? Yes. I believe this demonstrates that these kinds of summaries are very possible, and I agree with Bongo that they're also very valuable. – [[User:NateBumber|n8]] ([[User talk:NateBumber|☎]]) 15:47, 31 March 2023 (UTC)
:::: Wow, that's great. It achieves my goals far better than I was expecting. This would have been very useful when I was starting ''[[Scherzo (audio story)|Scherzo]]'' and the [[Divergent Universe|Divergent]] arc which was quite a bit after I finished ''[[Zagreus (audio story)|Zagreus]]''. It inlcudes everything I would need to know for a brief reminder. [[User:Bongolium500|<span title="aka Bongolium500">Bongo50</span>]] [[User talk:Bongolium500|<span title="talk to me">☎</span>]] 17:12, 31 March 2023 (UTC)
I'm unconvinced, but if Bongo is, perhaps it can work! As I said, this is skepticism, not an outright dismissal. [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 18:49, 31 March 2023 (UTC)
That is perfect, n8. I think that simple summary proves this subpage idea could well work. {{Unsigned|Cousin Ettolrhc}}


== Proposal: <code><nowiki>/Other realities</nowiki></code> ==
== Proposal: <code><nowiki>/Other realities</nowiki></code> ==
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: I too support this proposal. {{User:Epsilon the Eternal/signature}} 18:38, 24 March 2023 (UTC)
: I too support this proposal. {{User:Epsilon the Eternal/signature}} 18:38, 24 March 2023 (UTC)
I've had more or less this exact idea in my head for a while now, so I'm glad it's finally being suggested. This has my full '''support'''. [[User:WaltK|WaltK]] [[User talk:WaltK|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 18:21, 4 April 2023 (UTC)


== Proposal: <code><nowiki>/Physical appearance</nowiki></code> ==
== Proposal: <code><nowiki>/Physical appearance</nowiki></code> ==
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{{/Biography}}
{{/Biography}}


=== Discussion: <code><nowiki>[[/Biography]]</nowiki></code> ===
=== Discussion: <code><nowiki>/Biography</nowiki></code> ===
:'''Please put comments regarding the <code><nowiki>[[/Biography]]</nowiki></code> proposal here.'''
:'''Please put comments regarding the <code><nowiki>[[/Biography]]</nowiki></code> proposal here.'''


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In the end, I don't think I am ''against'' the proposal, and if everyone else agrees with it just ignore me. But as it stands, I think this could massively disrupt the hierarchy of the coverage on our website. [[User:OttselSpy25|OS25]][[User Talk:OttselSpy25|🤙☎️]] 22:08, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
In the end, I don't think I am ''against'' the proposal, and if everyone else agrees with it just ignore me. But as it stands, I think this could massively disrupt the hierarchy of the coverage on our website. [[User:OttselSpy25|OS25]][[User Talk:OttselSpy25|🤙☎️]] 22:08, 14 March 2023 (UTC)


: I generally like this proposal. I also think another good example of NPOV-compliance in it is the Eleventh Doctor - coverage of [[Alice Obiefune]] should be equal to [[Series 5 (Doctor Who)|Series 5]]. [[User:Cousin Ettolrhc|Cousin Ettolrhc]] [[User talk:Cousin Ettolrhc|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 22:11, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
: I generally like this proposal. I also think another good example of NPOV-compliance in it is the Eleventh Doctor - coverage of [[Alice Obiefune]] should be equal to [[Series 5 (Doctor Who 2005)|Series 5]]. [[User:Cousin Ettolrhc|Cousin Ettolrhc]] [[User talk:Cousin Ettolrhc|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 22:11, 14 March 2023 (UTC)


::I support this. Not really got any more to add. [[User:Danniesen|Danniesen]] [[User talk:Danniesen|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 22:17, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
::I support this. Not really got any more to add. [[User:Danniesen|Danniesen]] [[User talk:Danniesen|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 22:17, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
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::::: Excluding a source from a summary doesn't mean it "didn't happen" or that it's "second-class", it just means it wasn't notable enough as part of everything a character ever did to make the summary of their biography, because by definition a summary can't include everything. In general, our goal is to cover everything we can about a topic, which should indeed be done on the full biographies. But for summaries, we should provide readers with the key details of what's important, in this case to a character's life. Deciding what is most important to include should not be "taking a viewpoint" because the summary should be based on what the viewpoints (sources) themselves say is important.
::::: Excluding a source from a summary doesn't mean it "didn't happen" or that it's "second-class", it just means it wasn't notable enough as part of everything a character ever did to make the summary of their biography, because by definition a summary can't include everything. In general, our goal is to cover everything we can about a topic, which should indeed be done on the full biographies. But for summaries, we should provide readers with the key details of what's important, in this case to a character's life. Deciding what is most important to include should not be "taking a viewpoint" because the summary should be based on what the viewpoints (sources) themselves say is important.


::::: As an example, [[User:Cousin Ettolrhc]] says about the [[Eleventh Doctor]]'s page: "coverage of [[Alice Obiefune]] should be equal to [[Series 5 (Doctor Who)|Series 5]]." These aren't really comparable, so I assume what she means is "coverage of the Doctor's adventures with Alice should be equal to coverage his adventures seen in Series 5." Well as I said, I don't think coverage should necessarily be equal but consideration of sources should. In terms of "what happened in the Eleventh Doctor's life", his regeneration, meeting with [[Amy Pond]], investigating cracks in time, etc. are significant to what he did. This is even backed up by EU sources referencing these events as part of his life, because they are by nature based on the TV show. This makes something like ''[[The Eleventh Hour (TV story)|The Eleventh Hour]]'' more important (specifically ''to the Eleventh Doctor's life'') than any random adventures he had with Alice, or indeed with Amy or anyone else, but not any more ''valid''. However, the overall fact that Eleven did travel with Alice does appear in a significant amount of stories, indicating it is a decently significant part of his life, and should itself be noted in the summary in my opinion. For myself, the only content with Alice Obiefune I've read was specifically year 2 of the ''[[Doctor Who: The Eleventh Doctor]]'' comic series, for which I would say this arc is not quite notable for Eleven's biography as it's basically a single minor conflict for him, but would be for Alice herself, as well as characters like [[the Master]] or [[Abslom Daak]] due to featuring large portions of and/or pivotal events in their histories. That could be a good place to start on what to include in such summaries.
::::: As an example, [[User:Cousin Ettolrhc]] says about the [[Eleventh Doctor]]'s page: "coverage of [[Alice Obiefune]] should be equal to [[Series 5 (Doctor Who 2005)|Series 5]]." These aren't really comparable, so I assume what she means is "coverage of the Doctor's adventures with Alice should be equal to coverage his adventures seen in Series 5." Well as I said, I don't think coverage should necessarily be equal but consideration of sources should. In terms of "what happened in the Eleventh Doctor's life", his regeneration, meeting with [[Amy Pond]], investigating cracks in time, etc. are significant to what he did. This is even backed up by EU sources referencing these events as part of his life, because they are by nature based on the TV show. This makes something like ''[[The Eleventh Hour (TV story)|The Eleventh Hour]]'' more important (specifically ''to the Eleventh Doctor's life'') than any random adventures he had with Alice, or indeed with Amy or anyone else, but not any more ''valid''. However, the overall fact that Eleven did travel with Alice does appear in a significant amount of stories, indicating it is a decently significant part of his life, and should itself be noted in the summary in my opinion. For myself, the only content with Alice Obiefune I've read was specifically year 2 of the ''[[Doctor Who: The Eleventh Doctor]]'' comic series, for which I would say this arc is not quite notable for Eleven's biography as it's basically a single minor conflict for him, but would be for Alice herself, as well as characters like [[the Master]] or [[Abslom Daak]] due to featuring large portions of and/or pivotal events in their histories. That could be a good place to start on what to include in such summaries.


::::: Meanwhile, for a character like [[Ace]], her history (...or maybe histories in this case) set outside the TV show is larger and would likely merit much more mention than merely that seen on TV. The Eighth Doctor's biographical summary should almost entirely be made of non-TV material. And again, this does not mean we are saying these stories "happened more", it means we are saying they are more relevant to the topic at hand, a summary of a character's history.
::::: Meanwhile, for a character like [[Ace]], her history (...or maybe histories in this case) set outside the TV show is larger and would likely merit much more mention than merely that seen on TV. The Eighth Doctor's biographical summary should almost entirely be made of non-TV material. And again, this does not mean we are saying these stories "happened more", it means we are saying they are more relevant to the topic at hand, a summary of a character's history.
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:: Great idea. – [[User:NateBumber|n8]] ([[User talk:NateBumber|☎]]) 14:11, 24 March 2023 (UTC)
:: Great idea. – [[User:NateBumber|n8]] ([[User talk:NateBumber|☎]]) 14:11, 24 March 2023 (UTC)
:: I still like this idea, but I've been thinking some more and I'm wondering if we could possibly make it more general somehow, to include not just commentaries but also other commentary-style information released in other formats, such as interviews and reference books? – [[User:NateBumber|n8]] ([[User talk:NateBumber|☎]]) 22:26, 29 March 2023 (UTC)
::: What about <nowiki>[[\Production]]</nowiki>? It could also cover [[info text]]. [[User:Bongolium500|<span title="aka Bongolium500">Bongo50</span>]] [[User talk:Bongolium500|<span title="talk to me">☎</span>]] 17:11, 30 March 2023 (UTC)
::::Mm, that makes it sound like it'll be about filming blocks and locations and such – which is an interesting idea on its own, but quite separate from the initial idea.
::::What about <nowiki>[[/Commentary]]</nowiki> in the singular? It's a light touch, but it opens it up to other sources of discussion. Imagine a header for each commentary but also for the relevant [[TCH]] volume and [[the Black Archive|Black Archive]]. – [[User:NateBumber|n8]] ([[User talk:NateBumber|☎]]) 12:10, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
::::: That works with me. [[User:Bongolium500|<span title="aka Bongolium500">Bongo50</span>]] [[User talk:Bongolium500|<span title="talk to me">☎</span>]] 18:57, 4 April 2023 (UTC)


=== Centuries for location pages ===
=== Centuries for location pages ===
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=== Promotion ===
=== Promotion ===
Another idea that I forgot about when writing the OP, which I'll toss in at the 11th hour just in case it proves non-controversial: <code><nowiki>[[/Promotion]]</nowiki></code> for series pages. For instance, <nowiki>[[</nowiki>[[Series 9 (Doctor Who)]]/Promotion<nowiki>]]</nowiki> and <nowiki>[[</nowiki>[[The First Doctor: Volume One]]/Promotion<nowiki>]]</nowiki>. This would provide a place for covering the trailers, news articles, promotional tweets, interviews, and/or "next time" segments associated with a release in depth. – [[User:NateBumber|n8]] ([[User talk:NateBumber|☎]]) 14:11, 24 March 2023 (UTC)
Another idea that I forgot about when writing the OP, which I'll toss in at the 11th hour just in case it proves non-controversial: <code><nowiki>[[/Promotion]]</nowiki></code> for series pages. For instance, <nowiki>[[</nowiki>[[Series 9 (Doctor Who 2005)]]/Promotion<nowiki>]]</nowiki> and <nowiki>[[</nowiki>[[The First Doctor: Volume One]]/Promotion<nowiki>]]</nowiki>. This would provide a place for covering the trailers, news articles, promotional tweets, interviews, and/or "next time" segments associated with a release in depth. – [[User:NateBumber|n8]] ([[User talk:NateBumber|☎]]) 14:11, 24 March 2023 (UTC)


: I think this is a good idea, provided that individual material that has enough depth to warrant its own page (like [[Big Finish]] "trailer"/webcasts/minisodes) receieve one with a {{tlx|main}}-link. [[User:Bongolium500|<span title="aka Bongolium500">Bongo50</span>]] [[User talk:Bongolium500|<span title="talk to me">☎</span>]] 18:07, 24 March 2023 (UTC)
: I think this is a good idea, provided that individual material that has enough depth to warrant its own page (like [[Big Finish]] "trailer"/webcasts/minisodes) receieve one with a {{tlx|main}}-link. [[User:Bongolium500|<span title="aka Bongolium500">Bongo50</span>]] [[User talk:Bongolium500|<span title="talk to me">☎</span>]] 18:07, 24 March 2023 (UTC)


::Absolutely fantastic idea. So much of the cultural context around why certain [[Hell Bent (TV story)|episodes]] or [[Series 6 (Doctor Who)|series]] have the reception they do in the community in the past ~10 years is because of the marketing for them. At this point if you weren't in the fanbase at the time you don't really understand why discussion of them is so emotionally charged. Like two weeks ago I was talking to someone (nightowl, Nate, if you recognize his name from being in the comments of most Who Cares? videos) about the marketing for Hell Bent in particular, since he had skipped out on the Capaldi era and came back to the show later and he was really surprised at what they chose to focus on. [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 08:01, 25 March 2023 (UTC)
::Absolutely fantastic idea. So much of the cultural context around why certain [[Hell Bent (TV story)|episodes]] or [[Series 6 (Doctor Who 2005)|series]] have the reception they do in the community in the past ~10 years is because of the marketing for them. At this point if you weren't in the fanbase at the time you don't really understand why discussion of them is so emotionally charged. Like two weeks ago I was talking to someone (nightowl, Nate, if you recognize his name from being in the comments of most Who Cares? videos) about the marketing for Hell Bent in particular, since he had skipped out on the Capaldi era and came back to the show later and he was really surprised at what they chose to focus on. [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 08:01, 25 March 2023 (UTC)


:::Great idea, [[User:NateBumber|n8]]. Full support from me. [[User:FractalDoctor|Fractal Doctor]] [[User talk:FractalDoctor|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 14:31, 25 March 2023 (UTC)
:::Great idea, [[User:NateBumber|n8]]. Full support from me. [[User:FractalDoctor|Fractal Doctor]] [[User talk:FractalDoctor|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 14:31, 25 March 2023 (UTC)
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::[[User:LegoK9|LegoK9]]'s already taken initiative in the direction of "expanding Gallery subpage usage" by creating [[Andrew Skilleter/Gallery]]; I agree story gallery pages would be a natural next step. Besides [[Doctor Who in an Exciting Adventure with the Daleks (novelisation)/Gallery]], I would also appreciate [[Lungbarrow (novel)/Gallery]], since right now [[Lungbarrow (novel)#Illustrations]] – as lovely as it looks with so many entries – features two or sometimes three versions of every image. We could more clearly demarcate which images are versions of each other on a fuller Gallery subpage. – [[User:NateBumber|n8]] ([[User talk:NateBumber|☎]]) 13:07, 29 March 2023 (UTC)
::[[User:LegoK9|LegoK9]]'s already taken initiative in the direction of "expanding Gallery subpage usage" by creating [[Andrew Skilleter/Gallery]]; I agree story gallery pages would be a natural next step. Besides [[Doctor Who in an Exciting Adventure with the Daleks (novelisation)/Gallery]], I would also appreciate [[Lungbarrow (novel)/Gallery]], since right now [[Lungbarrow (novel)#Illustrations]] – as lovely as it looks with so many entries – features two or sometimes three versions of every image. We could more clearly demarcate which images are versions of each other on a fuller Gallery subpage. – [[User:NateBumber|n8]] ([[User talk:NateBumber|☎]]) 13:07, 29 March 2023 (UTC)
=== Gameplay ===
This one's very last minute so I completely understand that it'll probably need its own proposal, but what about /Gameplay subpages? These could be used to cover the gameplay aspects of the various video and role playing games that we cover in much more detail than you can in a single section on the page. Perhaps subpages of this subpage could then be created, such as /Gameplay/Characters in order to document the gameplay stats of the various characters in hte game? I feel that this could be a very useful resource for those looking to either better strategise in currently available games or better understand older and unavailable games. [[User:Bongolium500|<span title="aka Bongolium500">Bongo50</span>]] [[User talk:Bongolium500|<span title="talk to me">☎</span>]] 22:22, 2 April 2023 (UTC)
:I'd defer this to another thread. There's something here that's good, but I think it needs more fleshing out. I think subpages are going to be an integral part of whatever solution we find to wikifying CYA books, for instance, though not the full solution. In addition, [[User:Najawin/Sandbox 0 SPOILERS]] is on its way, and has the potential for a subpage when it hits. (As does [[Worlds Apart (video game)|Worlds Apart]] if anyone cares to write one for it.) And FASA does too. And we really need to have a discussion on how to handle [[The Sekimeiya: Spun Glass (novel)|The Sekimeiya: Spun Glass]]. All of these are subtly different and require slightly different approaches. [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 22:33, 2 April 2023 (UTC)
:: I'm not really referring to subpages here to help cover multipath stories: that is very much a matter of plot which is different, in my eyes, to gameplay. In this regard, I disagree that each of your examples require different approaches: each would likely already have a "Gameplay" section and, if there is enough detail that could go here, this could be split into a subpage. While each would contain different content, each follows the same approach of creating a subpage when there's too much detail to reasonably place on the main page. To better illustrate my points, I'm going to use ''[[Lost in Time (video game)|Lost in Time]]'' as an example. Gameplay mechanics are entirely separate to plot in this game. Plot is covered as normal and the "Gameplay" section/subpage is entirely concerned with, well, gameplay and could contain tables summarising the stats and upgrades of each character and waypoint. This would probably end being quite a lot. Hence, it could be split off onto a subpage. Anyway, I agree that this will probably deserve its own thread; I just wanted to clarify my idea. [[User:Bongolium500|<span title="aka Bongolium500">Bongo50</span>]] [[User talk:Bongolium500|<span title="talk to me">☎</span>]] 10:29, 3 April 2023 (UTC)
::: I would support this. I think a subpage for gameplay would be really useful. If you look at other wikis designed for video games (see [https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/Deathclaw_(Fallout_4) Fallout Wiki] for example), the majority feature statistics such as health/abilities etc. ''Doctor Who'' is a multimedia franchise, and I feel video games are currently unfairly treated by this wiki. This would somewhat improve our coverage. We have contents sections for books, I don't see any issue with having a gameplay section for video games, and it would make sense to put this on a subpage. [[User:66 Seconds|66 Seconds]] [[User talk:66 Seconds|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 14:03, 3 April 2023 (UTC)
== Final Thoughts ==
Now we're in the day of closure, I thought it may be sensible to collect anyone's final thoughts for this thread.
Me, I just hope that "/Other realities" and "/Physical appearance" definitely get passed, and I hope for "/Plot" based on n8's solution to Bongo's problem in that sub-heading. And '''personally''' I'd like "/Biography", but I'm okay if that one doesn't pass, as it appears to be more complicated. But overall, I'm really glad we managed to come together to discuss these subp      age ideas, and I think most, if not all, people here like the idea of subpages, and only disagree on how they are implemented. [[User:Cousin Ettolrhc|Cousin Ettolrahc]] [[User talk:Cousin Ettolrhc|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 07:38, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
:/Promo, /Appearance, /Non-Valid, /Other realities, with the caveats discussed. Mixed emotions on /Biography but probably against. Maybe it could be brought up again for more refinement in round 3. Or if people disagree with me we can go ahead. But I'm skeptical. Not 100% "no this can't happen, not ever", completely open to reconsidering. But I'm still really skeptical. /Plot hard against. I don't think the arguments I presented were addressed at all.
:If there's a way to track page views (which I doubt, but we might want to talk to FANDOM staff about) we might test out some temporary subpage changes to a few big pages (such as the "single sentence" approach, or the "only have a subpage, no main page summary" approach) and see what conversion rates are from going main page -> subpage. But I think that's going to be difficult to do (and those are the only options I've seen so far that I think are viable). [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 07:51, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
Oh yes, thank you Najawin, I forgot about "Non-valid sources". Strongly hope this is passed as well [[User:Cousin Ettolrhc|Cousin Ettolrahc]] [[User talk:Cousin Ettolrhc|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 07:58, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
:As I have expressed before and in the original thread, I’ve not really much to say except that I support that these go through. Although, I am, like Najawin (I know, shock) skeptical of /Biography and would for the most part be against /Plot. But I would make exceptions, such as if they end up being too long. We already have a problem with pages that are too long (as per an old Forum thread from the Old Forums).
:I think if it becomes a case like the video game ''[[Lost in Time (video game)|Lost in Time]]'', I would say creating /Plot as a subpage would be a good idea. I mean, the game currently has 30 Episodes and all of them need given their own sub-section on the Plot-section, not to mention the Event-storylines which are seperate from the main game. And the game will only get more Episodes, all of which need coverage too. And that’s in addition to the Header, Infobox, Synopsis, References, Notes and Continuity sections, which just makes for an overly long page. In such a case, I would say we should be able to create /Plot subpages. [[User:Danniesen|Danniesen]] [[User talk:Danniesen|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 08:13, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
::My, how time flies! I've just read over the thread and I think the case is especially clear for "Other realities", "Non-valid sources", "Promotion", and story and artist "Gallery" pages. More arguable are "Physical appearance", "Commentary", "Plot", and "Biography", roughly in that order. Testing the latter couple of these on a big page or two, ideally with polling of users and FANDOM cooperation on conversion rates, might be a good bridge between rejection and wholesale adoption. – [[User:NateBumber|n8]] ([[User talk:NateBumber|☎]]) 12:30, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
::: Here's where I stand:
:::; /Plot
:::: Full support following Nate's demonstration that solved the issue raised by Najawin for me.
:::; /Other realities
:::: Full support
:::; /Non-valid sources
:::: Full support
:::; /Physical appearance
:::: Full support
:::; /Biography
:::: Support of having the main biography section allow only up to 3 sentances (as is current policy) with a subpage allowing more than that (as much as is required)
:::; /Commentary
:::: Full support of including commentaries, [[info text]], ''[[The Complete History]]'' issues, ''[[The Black Archive]]'' issues, [[DWM]] ''[[The Fact of Fiction]]'' articles and anything else like this
:::; /nth century
:::: Support having these as actual pages (e.g. [[20th century London]]) rather than as subpages
:::; /Promotion
:::: Full support provided that individual material that has enough depth to warrant its own page (e.g. [[Big Finish]] trailers/webcasts/minisodes) receieve one with a {{tlx|main}}-link.
:::; /Gallery for stories
:::: Support for non-visual mediums (prose and audio) and only in extreme cases
:::; /Gameplay
:::: Full support seeming as I proposed it
::: [[User:Bongolium500|<span title="aka Bongolium500">Bongo50</span>]] [[User talk:Bongolium500|<span title="talk to me">☎</span>]] 19:41, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
== Conclusion ==
<div class="tech">
Phew. Apologies for the slight, unorthodox delay in closing this, but it's a big one and I was detained at the last moment by other matters.<ref>For the amusement of future archive-spelunkers, I'll make a historical note that these matters, though they also comprised non-''Who''-related business, included [https://tardis.fandom.com/wiki/Faction_Paradox_(series)?diff=3473067&oldid=3433411 this little debacle].</ref>
Right. So here we are again, fleshing out our usage of subpages after [[Tardis:Temporary forums/Archive/Subpage policy]] enshrined them as a part of our Wiki's ecosystem. I wish I could say that this would be the final one, but I think it's by now been agreed by most that we'll have to make a trilogy of it to tie off remaining loose ends.
But that doesn't mean we can't get a lot done here! So let's review all these case-by-case.
=== /Plot ===
This has proved one of the more controversial ones, and taking a bird's-eye view of the discussion, I think this is because it ran into ongoing controversies about how to do plot synopses at ''all'', whether on a talk page or otherwise. This then derailed the discussion<ref>I use the term loosely; I don't mean to say anyone went off-topic in a policy-breaking sense.</ref>, such that we actually saw more talk of the merits of various kinds of synopses than of the actual pros and cons of putting the longest form of the summary on a subpage, ''per se''.
Regarding ''that'' question, I just don't think the current discussion has found a fitting answer to the twofold issues raised by [[User:Najawin]]:
{{quote|So as the person whose plot description was used for the example of "extreme levels of detail", I don't think this is ''unfair'', ''per se'', but it is something that removes motivation. (…) We can't trust Fandom's best practice's guide. Fandom has different motivations than us. They want every user to use Fandom as much as possible, click on Fandom links, and then ''feel ''like they got a complete, reasonable, happy experience, whether or not they did. (…) Creating subpages shunts off information into pages that people are less likely to click on (especially if there's a minor substitute on the main page so they already feel somewhat satisfied), so it runs directly counter to their motivation.|User:Najawin}}
The first half of this is honestly what I find most concerning, even though it's technically "up" "to" "editors" and I'm not ''unaware'' of the possible precedent for "emotional blackmail" that this kind of sets. Users willing to write detailed plot summaries are a rare and extremely precious commodity, and as much as we must strive to be easily-legible to readers, we do also have to consider what will attract more such editors/make the current ones continue their difficult and helpful work.
So for the time being, I am closing this '''against /Plot subpages''', and not just as "unresolved" but with some degree of prejudice against. i.e. "Subpages 3.0" is not ''barred'' from revisiting this issue but the onus ''would'' be on the pro-/Plot side to present new arguments countering these issues, as in the case of a proposal to ''change'' an existing policy, rather than simply to codify something which hasn't been agreed upon yet either way.
'''However,''' what this discussion has allowed to come to light is that '''Publisher's Summaries are bad substitutes for Actual Short Summaries'''. As [[User:Bongolium500]] explained:
{{quote|The thing with (publisher's) summaries is that I think they server yet another purpose:<br />• (Publisher's) summaries provide a mostly spoiler-free way to decide if you're interested in a given story without giving away much of the plot.<br />• Shorter plot summaries allow people to get the gist of a story without going into all of the details. It allows people to get a quick refresher on a story they've already experienced.<br />• Longer plot summaries that we already have allow you to effectively experience a story without experiencing it, providing details on all plotlines, all characters and all little moments.<br />In my mind, these 3 concepts are all different but each one has their separate uses. Ideally, I'd like to see them all in some form or other.|User:Bongolium500}}
As demonstrated by [[User:NateBumber]]'s ''[[Zagreus (audio story)|Zagreus]]'' demo, what we need is to introduce short, one-to-three-paragraphs plot breakdowns. Unlike the typical Publisher's Summary, they aren't ''spoiler-free'' or otherwise designed with a teaserlike, promotional edge — but they should also remain compact enough that no one would mistake them for the real, full, scene-by-scene plot summary. '''All source pages should endeavour to have these, ''even if'' they also already have one or more Publisher's Summaries.''' So, ''[[Zagreus (audio story)|Zagreus]]'' might, from now on, have ''three'' plot-related subsections: "''Publisher's summary''", "''Summary''", and "''Plot''".
=== /Other realities ===
This is essentially accepted, but I want to reframe the problem that it solves.
As [[User:NateBumber]] quoted from [[T:MERGE]] (here updated from "alternate timeline" language to now-standard "other realities" language):
{{quote|As a rule of thumb, if there's no more to say on the separate page than what can already be stated on the prime version's "Other realities" subsection, it's not worth creating a separate page for the alternative version.|T:MERGE}}
This isn't "the seeds of a solution" — it ''is'' the solution. But it does give rise to an issue where a character might have ''a lot'' of alternative versions, who don't ''individually'' appear at enough length warrant their own pages, but are numerous enough that they make a mere [[#Other realities]] subsection unreasonably long and cluttered. Indeed, even when alternative versions ''do'' have their own pages, they still need to be cited in the "Other realities" section of the primary version, so the problem is orthogonal to whether these versions individually get their own pages, ''per se''.
I think the discussion from [[User:66 Seconds]], though well-intentioned, is something of a false trail. The question isn't the somewhat wooly question of to what extent divergent versions of a character share a past and thus an "identity", but moreso ''how the story treats them''. [[Amy Pond (The Girl Who Waited)]] is ''narratively'' a different character from Mainline Amy, both in the sense that emotionally her survival distinct from the young version is treated as morally desirable, and in the practical sense that it's much easier to write a summary of events if we can say things like "the [[Eleventh Doctor]] sacrificed [[Amy Pond (The Girl Who Waited)|Amy Pond]] to save [[Amy Pond]]" than if we have only one page to link to.
Contrariwise [[Moira (Shadow World)|the Shadow World Moira]] very probably ''doesn't'' have any kind of continuity-of-consciousness with the flesh-and-blood one (she lives in a subtly different world where the ''[[Veritas (text)|Veritas]]'' has existed throughout history, and her psyche is running on software that is incapable of randomness!), but she's still ''narratively'' treated as an extension of the primary Moira. Indeed, we can compare this to the [[Twelfth Doctor (Shadow World)|Shadow Doctor]] who is Watsonianly speaking in the same boat, but who ''narratively'' falls more on the side of the ''GWW''!Amy, being treated as his own person with his own moral weight, and taking character actions where he ''interacts with'' the meatspace Doctor.
So: let us agree that any character with more than three entries in their <nowiki>==Other realities==</nowiki> subsection may have it {{tlx|main}}ed to a <nowiki>[[/Other realities]]</nowiki> subpage, which should continue to afford more or less one paragraph per counterpart at most, past which threshold we should seriously consider the given counterpart their own page {{tlx|main}}ed-to from their "Other realities" section.
'''None of this really changes the T:MERGE standards for whether to give a counterpart their own pages''', which continues to rely on the same necessarily-somewhat-case-by-case calculus of how the story ''treats'' a counterpart's identity or lack thereof, what's most practical, how much we have to say about them, and whether we have a convenient name for the new page. (The likes of [[Quiquaequod]] could have been a mere note on [[Eighth Doctor#Other realities]], slash [[Eighth Doctor/Other realities]], long ago, if he had also simply been called "the Eighth Doctor", particularly as dabbing him would have been very difficult without a reality name and with other Eighth Doctors in ''[[The Glorious Dead (comic story)|The Glorious Dead]]''. But as he has his own name and image, it is more efficient to give him his own short page.)
(Yes, for those keeping track, this does mean that [[Moira (Shadow World)]], assuming it is as long as it can be from the available data, ought to be merged into plain old [[Moira#Other realities]].)
Two additional notes:
* '''"Other realities" should definitely be standardised as the heading/subpage name across the Wiki'''. For my money this is already the current policy and it's just a matter of dusting up application, but if enshrining be needed, let this be it.
* The suggestion to alter something like [[Pete Tyler (Pete's World)]] to [[Pete Tyler/Pete's World]], or heaven forbid [[Pete Tyler/Other realities/Pete's World]], is rejected with '''extreme''' prejudice. Have mercy on the pipe trick. (Yes, we could use redirects, but we don't ''need'' to and this would just make everything more confusing.)
=== /Non-valid sources ===
I'm surprised and delighted by the wide, essentially unanimous support this one has gotten. I expected that the inclusion of non-covered sources like charity stories, and works from series that crossed over with the DWU, would remain controversial even if splitting off proper {{tlx|invalid}} information to its own page would not. But I guess not! So, '''it passes''', along similar lines to "Other realities" above: if we have information from non-valid or non-covered sources that needs to be documented in a BTS section as more than a couple of sentences overall, this is justification for the creation of a <nowiki>[[/Non-valid sources]]</nowiki> subpage. With some caveats belowed, Nate's [[Template_talk:NateBumber/NCmaterial#Notes_on_implementation|Notes on Implementation]] should be followed.
However, a few things must be clarified:
* '''This policy applies to fiction'''. Rule-1-breakers like statements in interviews are not-covered because it's hard ''to'' cover sanely ''at all'', and indeed the citation proposals at [[Template_talk:NateBumber/NCmaterial#Notes_on_implementation]] don't account for that kind of scenario. Relevant info from such un-sources can continue to be discussed in BTS sections — if available and sensible, ''the BTS section of the Non-Valid Sources subpage'', although in some cases, such as [[The War Chief#Statements by writers]], such information is best kept within a broader BTS overview to which it connects.
* As regards coverage of stories from non-DWU series that had crossover, '''we should remember that we are doing this as an extension of what we'd be doing in the BTS section for context'''; unlike coverage of {{tlx|invalid}} or charity-DWU appearances, we should not aim for exhaustivity. That is: to editors' discretion, the ''Blake's 7'' parts of [[Carnell/Non-valid sources]] should focus on information which gives helpful context to his appearances in sources we ''do'' cover. It should ''not'' replicate the Carnell page on the ''Blake's 7'' Wiki and proceed to document every aspect of his biography across his ''Blake's 7''-branded appearances.
* As regards coverage of partial [[Tardis:Valid sources#Rule 2|Rule 2]]-breakers, we must remain ''very'' careful to avoid falling into [[T:NO FANFIC]] territory. ''Iris Explains'' certainly belongs at [[Iris Wildthyme/Non-valid sources]] — but not, to a first approximation, at [[Eighth Doctor/Non-valid sources]]. This could be altered by a second discussion, but I don't think there's been enough (indeed, not any) discussion here of the implications of that part of the policy, to justify such a radical opening of the gates. As with the first item, where it is at all relevant, this information should for now remain confined to in-universe pages.
As regards formatting, I don't think the idea if continuing to present it as a series of bullet point is warranted. The bullet points are in part an attempt to curtail detail that would be excessive in a BTS section, but the whole point of this change is to allow more thorough coverage of these elements' places in invalid/non-valid sources; we might want to have three, four, five paragraphs, complete with illustration, discussing a character's appearance in a given NV source. The bullet points just don't work.
I think a format that avoids unwarranted "welding" will likely emerge on its own; I think it will look something like the more essay-like avatars of in-universe pages, such as [[The Master's early life]]. Broad section, clustering by common threads and outlooks, not attempting ''strict'' chronology.
Additionally, '''as a special decision, given the imminent discussion of deeming ''Daft Dimension'' and ''DW?'' parallel universes whose respective versions of character should be covered as their own entities, they are momentarily excluded from this policy'''. ''Once'' we have had that thread, ''if'' they remain invalid and the proposal to treat them as parallel universes (albethey invalid) is not passed — only ''then'' will coverage of them on <nowiki>[[/Non-valid sources]]</nowiki> be encouraged. I think that's the best way to avoid probable unnecessary cleanup work at this juncture.
=== /Physical appearance ===
Not very much to say about this one. Except for [[User:Epsilon the Eternal]]'s mild concerns about duplication of information which didn't gather much support, this proposal seems to have been met by broad if somewhat-lukewarm approval, and so it passes. As with other cases, it should merely be a {{tlx|main}}able option when such a section gets too big, ''not'' a "default" subpage like <nowiki>[[/Spoiler]]</nowiki>.
=== /Biography ===
This one remains the great white whale. To be blunt, I do not believe the [[T:NPOV]] concerns have reached consensus yet. They're closer. We've had some ''great'' discussion.
But just look at how quickly every single proposal breaks down as soon as it's operationalised. [[User:Chubby Potato]] argues that [[Doctor Who: The Eleventh Doctor#Year Two|''The Eleventh Doctor: Year Two'']] is, "in terms of 'what happened in the Eleventh Doctor's life'," "not quite notable as it's basically a single minor conflict for him" (as compared to Series 5 depicting "his regeneration, meeting with Amy Pond, investigating cracks in time, etc."). I had to reread this several times to wrap my head around this: to my way of thinking it's obvious that ''Year Two'' is as major an event in the EU life of any Doctor as you can ''get''. Aside from ''Day'' it's the main instance of the Eleventh Doctor interacting with [[Last Great Time War|the War]] (arguably the most important event in the history of the universe, short of the [[Anchoring of the thread|anchoring]]); and in terms of his emotional journey it sends him into a deep spiral of guilt and self-examination, to the point of disappearing into the depths of a TARDIS to stew in his own self-reproachfulness, above and beyond his exile to Victorian London from ''[[The Snowmen (TV story)|The Snowmen]]''.
And that's from Chubby_Potato grasping for what I assume he intended as a fairly uncontroversial example!
But fortunately, we do not have to close this as ''wholly'' unresolved. The end of the discussion brought forth what I have always considered the storngest, almost overriding argument for splitting off Biographies: [[Thread:264489]]'s ruling on preventing pages about highly-recurring characters from getting "too long". It's absolutely terrible that under current policy there is no way to get a biography of Amy Pond that includes all relevant information from her stories. (Which doesn't mean scene-by-scene summaries of her comings and goings, just — well, about the level of plot-mechanics detail of the mid-length summaries discussed back in /Plot, really. Something that gives you intelligible cliffnotes without having to click through to other pages. I frankly don't believe it's possible to summarise Amy's dual part in ''[[The Big Bang (TV story)|The Big Bang]]'' in just three sentences in a way anybody would understand without having seen it first.)
So, as a first measure, as per the loose consensus, my ruling is this: '''pages falling under the influence of [[Thread:264489]]'s three-sentences ruling, or of similar breadth/length, should have <nowiki>[[/Biography]]</nowiki> subpages where the biogrpahical info can be covered in full detail. The biography on the main side shouldn't ''exclude'' any stories, but should give only limited, one-to-three-sentence coverage to most'''. Indeed, for some minor stories, we could go as compact as [https://tardis.fandom.com/wiki/John_Who?oldid=3459793#Travels_with_the_First_Doctor the current, in-this-case-unjustified way that the ''TV Comics'' adventures of John and Gillian are "speedrun" on both their pages].
Let's try and do this, and see how it goes. Subpages 3.0 might of course choose to fine-tune, extend or alter this in one way or another.
=== The Optional Add-Ons ===
Some people made additional suggestions in the "General discussion" area. I am leery of these as a concept, for the same reasons I recently outlined at [[Tardis:Temporary forums/Slot 3: Inclusion debates speedround#Gameplay-based LEGO Dimensions trailers]]. However, two of them seem to have received unanimous, uncontroversial support: "/Promotion" subapges, and the extension of "/Gallery" subpages to pages about non-visual media which pass the original gallery standards (i.e. more than ten images). So I guess those pass. '''/Gameplay, the century pages, and however we sort out the /Production, /Commentary and/or /Commentaries issues should be left for "Subpages 3.0".'''
=== Final thoughts ===
Well, I have a headache. But thank you, everyone, for participating in this discussion and making it, if I might add, a much nicer and more productive experience than the first attempt!
As a final administrative note, please take heed of the fact that subpages, though generally uncategorised, should at the very least be kept in "Game of Rassilon" legacy cats: for example, [[Sarah Jane Smith/Biography]] should be placed in the hidden category [[:Category:Companions of the Doctor]] so that people who edit it (which is functionally like editing [[Sarah Jane Smith]]) still get their rightful GoR XP. If there are any further subtleties I'm missing, with regards to Categories or anything else — well, that'll be material for Part Three.
Also to be discussed in Part Three is a tabbed display format that [[User:Bongolium500]] has been hammering away at lately, but which isn't quite ready yet. For the time being, let's stick with the existing {{tlx|Main}}, {{tlx|Appears}}, {{tlx|Spoilerlink}} and {{tlx|Gallerylink}} constellation of templates. [[User:Scrooge MacDuck|'''Scrooge MacDuck''']] [[User_talk:Scrooge MacDuck|⊕]] 18:47, 6 April 2023 (UTC)
=== Footnotes ===
{{reflist}}
</div>
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