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Forum:Temporary forums/Inclusion debates speedround: Difference between revisions
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Forum:Temporary forums/Inclusion debates speedround (view source)
Revision as of 09:48, 9 April 2023
, 9 April 2023→Fourth Wall discussion
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:::: The Naked Truth is written by Steven there is no canon Moffat. It also narratively justifies breaking the fourth wall by having the Doctor be asked to make an appeal. The whole thing when they auctioned off the script for this was that it was a mini Doctor who scene. The fact Smith is the Doctor means it’s in some world where the Doctor exists. Change rule 4 to “a” DWU and this passes with flying colours. Validity is being treated like canon and it shouldn’t be. [[Special:Contributions/81.108.82.15|81.108.82.15]]<sup>[[User talk:81.108.82.15#top|talk to me]]</sup> 08:49, 9 April 2023 (UTC) | :::: The Naked Truth is written by Steven there is no canon Moffat. It also narratively justifies breaking the fourth wall by having the Doctor be asked to make an appeal. The whole thing when they auctioned off the script for this was that it was a mini Doctor who scene. The fact Smith is the Doctor means it’s in some world where the Doctor exists. Change rule 4 to “a” DWU and this passes with flying colours. Validity is being treated like canon and it shouldn’t be. [[Special:Contributions/81.108.82.15|81.108.82.15]]<sup>[[User talk:81.108.82.15#top|talk to me]]</sup> 08:49, 9 April 2023 (UTC) | ||
So I wanted to come in here and respond to a few things, not much I'll say. | |||
First of all, I want to say I relate to all of you who have wanted these forums to last a little longer. I too have sometimes felt poorly about how little time we tend to spent in these threads, as much as I regret the weeks that sometimes go by where not a peep is uttered. I personally think we should switch to forums lasting four or five weeks, with only one forum opening/closing per week, that way you don't just wake up and find out three debates closed in two days. But at the same time, I know very well that some of the debates I see people complain about "closing too early" spend weeks without a single new edit in the first place. So I'm pro longer-forums, also very conscious of the reality that adding two more weeks of debate just means two more weeks of no one saying anything. | |||
Secondly, I made this forum knowing that some topics would be more divisive and would naturally be less likely to pass due to the format. Indeed, as I've said, anything wholly controversial is still capable of being moved to a full stand-alone debate. However, I must quickly now vocalize that I personally think that the proposed reading of Rule 4 above is absolutely ridiculous. It seems like something designed to have effect on anything with a slightly meta-edge. | |||
Even something as non-controversial and long-standing as [[TV]]: ''[[Music of the Spheres (TV story)|Music of the Spheres]]'' would be invalid based on this reading. | |||
I think the most offensive statement is that any segment pre-recorded for a real world event, no matter how in-universe or in-character or how much it can be read as a stand-alone segment ''must'' be invalid simply for having some connection to reality. Based on that reading, everything from ''[[The History of the Doctor (TV story)|The History of the Doctor]]'' to ''[[Dermot and the Doctor (TV story)|Dermot and the Doctor]]'' would become or remain invalid, not even for breaking the fourth wall. Probably ''[[Death Is the Only Answer (TV story)|Death Is the Only Answer]]'' too. | |||
The same would likely be true if we ever got a proper professional recording of a stage play, or an "experience" or whatever they'll do for the next ''Time Lord Victorious''. I fundamentally disagree with the idea that audience interaction in any medium other than Hartnell, Baker, and Capaldi TV stories automatically means "this must be set in the real world!" | |||
I'll also note to you that I never mentioned ''[[Peter Capaldi and Simon the Shy Cyberman Invite You to Breakfast with 7 Doctors (webcast)|Peter Capaldi and Simon the Shy Cyberman Invite You to Breakfast with 7 Doctors]]'', which was never part of the debate. I personally think ''that'' webcast violates my personal Rule 5: ''Things that make the website actively worse'', but primarily because some boastful editors insist that it's set in the middle of [[TV]]: ''[[The Doctor Falls (TV story)|The Doctor Falls]]'' when that's not even in the skit. I personally would not consider it valid, but only under the very specific and exceptionally context of what it is. I think there's a clear difference between the Twelfth Doctor screaming "DO YOU WANT TO MEET PETER CAPALDI WHO PLAYS ME?" and the Fourth Doctor going on a long character monologue where he says, one single time, "Do you remember the ''Arc in Space''?" | |||
I will hammer home my position that I disagree with any indication that fourth wall breaks (defined in this paragraph as "the Doctor speaks to the screen") should automatically preclude a story from validity. I think specifically decrying ''Animal Magic'' as OBVIOUSLY not being meant to be set inside the ''Doctor Who'' universe because the Doctor speaks to the audience is ridiculous for an era of the show that was borderline ''Dora the Explora'' at times. The Doctor's lucidity to those at home was indeed a defined aspect of the show, and I again simply do not think it's a justified idea that if you cut one of the moments down and re-release it as a bonus feature, it has to be invalid by default. And it is not a frivolous thing in the Capaldi or Tom Baker eras. It is defining. I would go as far as to argue that one of the iconic endings of Tom Baker smiling into the camera ''should be the infobox image at [[Fourth Doctor]].'' | |||
I'll say it again. ''Before the Flood'' has one minute and 57 seconds straight of the Doctor speaking to the audience unambiguously. ''Animal Magic'' has, by my estimation, about three seconds more. If you believe that ''The Bootstrap Paradox'' speech, if theoretically released by itself outside of the episode, ''should be invalid'' then I simply say that is not an ''actually realistic policy idea''. The Bootstrap Paradox is not an easter egg. The Bootstrap Paradox is not throw-away. The Bootstrap Paradox represents one of the most brilliant themes of the Capaldi era. | |||
I say all this knowing that it doesn't matter, but I've been burned too many times by not immediately responding to something I disagree with only for an admin to say "No one was going to disagree with this anyways..." | |||
As per the ''Sarah Jane'' segment, I still can not find it online. If it is an out-of-character segment, i.e. "I play Luke, Liz Sladen plays my Mum" then yeah it should be not only invalid, but behind-the-scenes. But if it's fully in-character monologues, i.e. "I'm Luke! Sarah Jane is my Mum!" it should be valid as a piece of fiction. So if your description is accurate, I agree with you, otherwise I don't. | |||
However, one thing that I do apologize about is the two Jodie segments, (''A New Year's message from the Doctor'' and ''United We Stand...''), which I misinterpreted based on their slightly inaccurate description on the wiki itself. I stand by the original COVID closet message (WC: ''Message from the Doctor''), however. I believe with my full chest that should be valid. It's very easy to read it as a transmission being sent out by the Doctor while she's on some adventure with [[Sontaran]]s, and not ''even'' her saying "Hey you! You watching ''Doctor Who''!" | |||
And I think this is a good example of why "no fourth wall breaks" as a blanket rule of invalidity irks me. I still do not understand how we're defining ''what a fourth wall break is'', and if it includes such things as ''[[Attack of the Graske (video game)|Attack of the Graske]]'' and ''[[Music of the Spheres (TV story)|Music of the Spheres]]''. If it includes ''Music'', why not ''Graske''? So the Doctor speaking to the audience in a video is a fourth wall break, but not the Doctor speaking the audience in a video where you click buttons? | |||
Personally, I think this disagreement stems back to the same arguments this website was having a decade ago. "''Oh, the real world and the DWU are always different. There is never any intersection at all, and anything slightly tongue-in-cheek must means it's non-DWU''." And I just disagree with that on principle. You might say "Why is this fictional character appearing on another TV show?" And my response to that is... It's still a fictional person on TV! You can't say "this is real life" because it's not. ''Chute!'' Episode 9 is not non-fiction! | |||
And it is my opinion, even if you're free to disagree, that when [[Davros]] shows up at the Proms, that is set inside the ''Doctor Who'' Universe and not the real world. In the same way that ''[[The Ultimate Adventure]]'' was set in the ''Doctor Who'' universe if you saw it live in 1989. If there was an official recording of ''The Ultimate Adventure'' and it came out tomorrow, I'd say it should be valid too. Yea, you could have stood up and ran to the parking lot, and Davros would have been gone and the real world would be all that you'd see. But it's still... fiction. | |||
And I furthermore just find it increasingly patronizing that not only are we now assuming that ''Doctor Who'' as a show ''can't'' exist in-universe, but that the Doctor can never be a public figure. The Doctor can never be someone people recognize or cheer for. Even in eras of the show where aliens are widely known to exist, or in periods of the franchise where the Doctor is usually off-world or not in modern times, or in eras of the EU where the Doctor is a public figure (see: ''Action in Exile''). So not only are meta-moments banned in more obscure media, we don't even allow ''implied meta-moments''. | |||
Everything you've said above is your opinion on what the ''Doctor Who'' universe is to you, but it's certainly not mine, and it should never be the site's official policy either. [[User:OttselSpy25|OS25]][[User Talk:OttselSpy25|🤙☎️]] 09:48, 9 April 2023 (UTC) | |||
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