Tech, emailconfirmed, Administrators
38,395
edits
Forum:Temporary forums/Inclusion debates speedround: Difference between revisions
From Tardis Wiki, the free Doctor Who reference
Forum:Temporary forums/Inclusion debates speedround (view source)
Revision as of 18:55, 22 April 2023
, 22 April 2023no edit summary
No edit summary Tag: 2017 source edit |
No edit summary Tag: 2017 source edit |
||
| Line 930: | Line 930: | ||
=== Part 0 - Should this Speedround have existed? === | === Part 0 - Should this Speedround have existed? === | ||
I don't think this format is ''inherently'' ill-suited to inclusion debates, particularly so long as we are operating with only six slots. [[User:NateBumber]] was seen to wonder if he had set a nasty precedent with the multi-sectioned structure of [[Tardis:Temporary forums/Archive/Subpages 2.0]] — but more than anything else, the precedent here is [[Forum:The original inclusion debates]], the ancestors of them all, which were conducted in a very comparable format. So long as we are discussing stories any ''one'' of whose validation would be a trivial matter<ref>Note that I mean trivial in the vernacular sense, not the epistemological sense [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] is fond of employing.</ref>, the basic consolidation of different inclusion topics into one big three-weeks thread seems like a basically sound instinct. | I don't think this format is ''inherently'' ill-suited to inclusion debates, particularly so long as we are operating with only six slots. [[User:NateBumber]] was seen to wonder if he had set a nasty precedent with the multi-sectioned structure of [[Tardis:Temporary forums/Archive/Subpages 2.0]] — but more than anything else, the precedent here is [[Forum:The original inclusion debates]], the ancestors of them all, which were conducted in a very comparable format.<ref>[[User:Najawin]] calls me out, I think in hindsight fairly, on this comparison not taking into account that [[Forum:The original inclusion debates]] grew organically over a very long period; so it was quite a different animal from nine topics proposed at once and discussed in parallel within a bounded three-week time-span. He's quite right and I should have thought about this more. Apologies.</ref> So long as we are discussing stories any ''one'' of whose validation would be a trivial matter<ref>Note that I mean trivial in the vernacular sense, not the epistemological sense [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] is fond of employing.</ref>, the basic consolidation of different inclusion topics into one big three-weeks thread seems like a basically sound instinct. | ||
Nate is speaking to a real concern when he notes: | Nate is speaking to a real concern when he notes: | ||
| Line 1,054: | Line 1,054: | ||
=== Part 6: ''Chute!'' === | === Part 6: ''Chute!'' === | ||
Another short one with clear consensus. This is a scripted, non-fourth-wall-breaking crossover, which could probably have been lumped into the "crossover shenanigans" discussion above. The story seems to carefully route ''around'' acknowledging SJA's in-universe fictionality, in a way rather similar to the famous gag in ''[[Remembrance of the Daleks (TV story)|Remembrance of the Daleks]]'' — stopping just short of confronting the characters with a SJA VHS tape. It's a fourth-wall ''gag'', but a gag which relies on the fact that there is a fourth wall to be broken, and that they hammer comes within inches of the wall in question, but then misses. | Another short one with clear consensus: '''it's valid'''. This is a scripted, non-fourth-wall-breaking crossover, which could probably have been lumped into the "crossover shenanigans" discussion above. The story seems to carefully route ''around'' acknowledging SJA's in-universe fictionality, in a way rather similar to the famous gag in ''[[Remembrance of the Daleks (TV story)|Remembrance of the Daleks]]'' — stopping just short of confronting the characters with a SJA VHS tape. It's a fourth-wall ''gag'', but a gag which relies on the fact that there is a fourth wall to be broken, and that they hammer comes within inches of the wall in question, but then misses. | ||
A lot of Ottsel's OP was given over to a discussion of the practicalities. He is correct that as per the precedent set by anything from ''[[The Incomplete Death's Head (comic story)|The Incomplete Death's Head]]'' to ''[[The Dalek Tapes (comic story)|The Dalek Tapes]]'' to ''[[Tales from the TARDIS (comic series)|Tales from the TARDIS]]'', the in-universe clips should be covered as part of the story — ''as'' in-universe clips, of course. This no more makes ''[[Potter Puppet Pals]]'' valid than [[Doctor Who (TV story)|the TV Movie]] makes ''[[Frankenstein (film)|Frankenstein]]'' valid.<ref>Note that, unlike the somewhat curious way we have given the individual stories within ''TIDH'' their own pages, we should here go with the ordinary procedure of merely covering them as part of the whole. Any pages about the clips qua clips would have to be in-universe ones. There is no cause for a "valid"-but-as-in-universe-fiction <nowiki>[[The Mysterious Ticking Noise (TV story)]]</nowiki>, that would be all ''kinds'' of confusing.</ref> There is no "slippery slope" situation here, not only because this is rare (as Ottsel notes), but because we've done it before. It's accepted procedure. | A lot of Ottsel's OP was given over to a discussion of the practicalities. He is correct that as per the precedent set by anything from ''[[The Incomplete Death's Head (comic story)|The Incomplete Death's Head]]'' to ''[[The Dalek Tapes (comic story)|The Dalek Tapes]]'' to ''[[Tales from the TARDIS (comic series)|Tales from the TARDIS]]'', the in-universe clips should be covered as part of the story — ''as'' in-universe clips, of course. This no more makes ''[[Potter Puppet Pals]]'' valid than [[Doctor Who (TV story)|the TV Movie]] makes ''[[Frankenstein (film)|Frankenstein]]'' valid.<ref>Note that, unlike the somewhat curious way we have given the individual stories within ''TIDH'' their own pages, we should here go with the ordinary procedure of merely covering them as part of the whole. Any pages about the clips qua clips would have to be in-universe ones. There is no cause for a "valid"-but-as-in-universe-fiction <nowiki>[[The Mysterious Ticking Noise (TV story)]]</nowiki>, that would be all ''kinds'' of confusing.</ref> There is no "slippery slope" situation here, not only because this is rare (as Ottsel notes), but because we've done it before. It's accepted procedure. | ||
| Line 1,072: | Line 1,072: | ||
But I think [[User:OttselSpy25]] does a good job of arguing that this story about the Doctor is very much a story about ''the'' Doctor, so to speak. Multiple people in the comments were impressed with the attention to continuity of putting Baker back in his old costume to make sure this fed ''properly'' into ''[[Terror of the Zygons (TV story)|Terror of the Zygons]]'', and the way it "restored the cliffhanger" of ''[[Revenge of the Cybermen (TV story)|Revenge of the Cybermen]]'' in much the same way as ''[[Time Crash (TV story)|Time Crash]]''. You wouldn't catch ''[[It's Showtime (TV story)|It's Showtime]]'' doing a thing like ''that''. And as for his status as a "celebrity" who can be invited to hold a programme like ''Disney Time'', Ottsel makes a good case that it was not intended to scan as a "breach o the rule" for the tiny tots watching at home. The Fourth Doctor grins at the camera, he [[Doctor Who Discovers|writes books]], he [[A Letter from the Doctor (series)|writes letters to ''Doctor Who Weekly'']]; of ''course'' he might host a TV show. Notably enough, ''Doctor Who'' is still treated as "real events" here, not some sort of meta-fiction that the meta-Doctor acts in; hence the cliffhanger to ''Terror of the Zygons''. | But I think [[User:OttselSpy25]] does a good job of arguing that this story about the Doctor is very much a story about ''the'' Doctor, so to speak. Multiple people in the comments were impressed with the attention to continuity of putting Baker back in his old costume to make sure this fed ''properly'' into ''[[Terror of the Zygons (TV story)|Terror of the Zygons]]'', and the way it "restored the cliffhanger" of ''[[Revenge of the Cybermen (TV story)|Revenge of the Cybermen]]'' in much the same way as ''[[Time Crash (TV story)|Time Crash]]''. You wouldn't catch ''[[It's Showtime (TV story)|It's Showtime]]'' doing a thing like ''that''. And as for his status as a "celebrity" who can be invited to hold a programme like ''Disney Time'', Ottsel makes a good case that it was not intended to scan as a "breach o the rule" for the tiny tots watching at home. The Fourth Doctor grins at the camera, he [[Doctor Who Discovers|writes books]], he [[A Letter from the Doctor (series)|writes letters to ''Doctor Who Weekly'']]; of ''course'' he might host a TV show. Notably enough, ''Doctor Who'' is still treated as "real events" here, not some sort of meta-fiction that the meta-Doctor acts in; hence the cliffhanger to ''Terror of the Zygons''. | ||
This is a tricky case. It's one that warranted discussion. But there is sufficient evidence here for a consensus to enshrine that as near as we could tell, or default assumption ''should'' be that this was intended to "count" as much as any other non-mainline-TV-series material of the era, ''despite'' the flirting with the fourth wall. File it alongside your merry Christmases and your Beethovens if you must. | This is a tricky case. It's one that warranted discussion. But there is sufficient evidence here for a consensus to enshrine that as near as we could tell, or default assumption ''should'' be that this was intended to "count" as much as any other non-mainline-TV-series material of the era, ''despite'' the flirting with the fourth wall. '''So it's valid'''. File it alongside your merry Christmases and your Beethovens if you must. | ||
I am personally unsure about the idea of using screenshots from other releases of the clips shown in the original broadcast. At least, we should be careful about cropping, and not show any margins which the 4:3 broadcast would have cutout. But the consensus seemed to be in favour of the suggestion, so fine. Let's give it a try. Far be it from me to arbitrarily rule against the obvious consensus just because ''I'' don't like it! | I am personally unsure about the idea of using screenshots from other releases of the clips shown in the original broadcast. At least, we should be careful about cropping, and not show any margins which the 4:3 broadcast would have cutout. But the consensus seemed to be in favour of the suggestion, so fine. Let's give it a try. Far be it from me to arbitrarily rule against the obvious consensus just because ''I'' don't like it! | ||
