Forum:Discontinuity revisited: Difference between revisions

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:::::I'm sure I was reading one of the articles you've been editing that there weren't any 'lighting directors' back in the day?. The italic explanation I must have left by accident. As for the error itself, yes now that I read it again it isn't an error, when I left it in I was thinking of backdrops and shadows falling on them, but now remember the shot in question and it's not an error (I shall fall back on the; 'it is the very nature of a wiki that things will be edited multiple times before they're correct and everyone makes mistakes'). --[[User:Tangerineduel|Tangerineduel]] 16:25, March 25, 2010 (UTC)
:::::I'm sure I was reading one of the articles you've been editing that there weren't any 'lighting directors' back in the day?. The italic explanation I must have left by accident. As for the error itself, yes now that I read it again it isn't an error, when I left it in I was thinking of backdrops and shadows falling on them, but now remember the shot in question and it's not an error (I shall fall back on the; 'it is the very nature of a wiki that things will be edited multiple times before they're correct and everyone makes mistakes'). --[[User:Tangerineduel|Tangerineduel]] 16:25, March 25, 2010 (UTC)
:::::::Almost. There were no [[cinematographer]]s back in the day. There ''were'' lighting directors, though they didn't begin to be credited until [[Season 8]], and you would still find occasional stories that didn't credit people, particularly in the McCoy era. 22:04, March 26, 2010 (UTC)
:::::::Almost. There were no [[cinematographer]]s back in the day. There ''were'' lighting directors, though they didn't begin to be credited until [[Season 8]], and you would still find occasional stories that didn't credit people, particularly in the McCoy era. 22:04, March 26, 2010 (UTC)
==STOP!==
==STOP!==
Stop! What are you doing? I agree some pages may need a tidy up but you’re destroying many people’s hard work. All you have done is destroy and delete dozens of unanswered questions, and given it a stupid new name leaving the bear minimum, I most want to complain as I am the one who add loads to the ones that had little and now your destroying all my work, stop and undo, you don't the right. After all if people are going to add to it wanting there questions answered and they aren't stupid or obvious who said you can delete them? And I've looked over your deletions and found you have deleted many reasonable unanswered errors and reasonable answers, and before you argue why to keep answered questions, how else do you stop new comers adding the same question? Just stop, and preferably undo and leave your meddling to yourself. If people wanted them gone, they would have been got rid of by now so your reason seems bit rubbish, as is this page and your ideas, just undo you’re meddling and leave. And before you ague be prepared to know that I will fight you till you back off.
Stop! What are you doing? I agree some pages may need a tidy up but you’re destroying many people’s hard work. All you have done is destroy and delete dozens of unanswered questions, and given it a stupid new name leaving the bear minimum, I most want to complain as I am the one who add loads to the ones that had little and now your destroying all my work, stop and undo, you don't the right. After all if people are going to add to it wanting there questions answered and they aren't stupid or obvious who said you can delete them? And I've looked over your deletions and found you have deleted many reasonable unanswered errors and reasonable answers, and before you argue why to keep answered questions, how else do you stop new comers adding the same question? Just stop, and preferably undo and leave your meddling to yourself. If people wanted them gone, they would have been got rid of by now so your reason seems bit rubbish, as is this page and your ideas, just undo you’re meddling and leave. And before you ague be prepared to know that I will fight you till you back off.
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I don't see this as reasoning, I see it as failure, I spent ages making many of the Discontiuity sections and now that you are destroying them because you think there messy, and you expect me to be okay with that? I won't give up, but as I said before, to save all of us a lot of strain can we just talk about this rather than us having to keep undoing each others undos?
I don't see this as reasoning, I see it as failure, I spent ages making many of the Discontiuity sections and now that you are destroying them because you think there messy, and you expect me to be okay with that? I won't give up, but as I said before, to save all of us a lot of strain can we just talk about this rather than us having to keep undoing each others undos?


::::"It would crowd the site and would really be a waste of space"...this is what other users have been saying about the 'discontinuity and question/answer element' and what lead us to clearing it up to Production errors.  
::::"It would crowd the site and would really be a waste of space"...this is what other users have been saying about the 'discontinuity and question/answer element' and what lead us to clearing it up to Production errors.
::::People also go to the trouble of adding unsourced rumours which are deleted and at one point in this wiki's development they were left on the pages, unsourced. However as this wiki has developed we now state that any rumours cited must have sources. As I've said it's in the nature of a wiki to change and develop. --[[User:Tangerineduel|Tangerineduel]] 16:01, March 26, 2010 (UTC)
::::People also go to the trouble of adding unsourced rumours which are deleted and at one point in this wiki's development they were left on the pages, unsourced. However as this wiki has developed we now state that any rumours cited must have sources. As I've said it's in the nature of a wiki to change and develop. --[[User:Tangerineduel|Tangerineduel]] 16:01, March 26, 2010 (UTC)
::::The problems that are left are errors in production, any issues were issues with story or in some cases not even that. Whilst editing The Moonbase I came across something about Ben knowing about thermonuclear science and other things, far from being discontinuity it's more an interesting character development. Other things like this can be over anaylsed as being a plot hole/error are actually elements of the Doctor Who universe. --[[User:Tangerineduel|Tangerineduel]] 16:12, March 26, 2010 (UTC)
::::The problems that are left are errors in production, any issues were issues with story or in some cases not even that. Whilst editing The Moonbase I came across something about Ben knowing about thermonuclear science and other things, far from being discontinuity it's more an interesting character development. Other things like this can be over anaylsed as being a plot hole/error are actually elements of the Doctor Who universe. --[[User:Tangerineduel|Tangerineduel]] 16:12, March 26, 2010 (UTC)


==Vote 2==
==Vote 2==
(Please sign user name and place a reason why)<br>
(Please sign user name and place a reason why)<br />
'''Keep Production Errors, move discontinuity to NEW PAGE'''
'''Keep Production Errors, move discontinuity to NEW PAGE'''


'''Keep Production Errors, move Discontinuity to NEW SECTION IN FORUM'''
'''Keep Production Errors, move Discontinuity to NEW SECTION IN FORUM'''
*[[User:Tangerineduel|Tangerineduel]] 16:44, March 26, 2010 (UTC) As we've already discussed the plot holes/discontinuity is basically just a discussion. So [[Forum:The Howling]] would be a perfect place for it. (As is already stated in [[Tardis:Format for Television Story Entries#Production errors]]. Having a page for discontinuity is what The Howling was created for, it's a forum for people to discuss the continuity.  
*[[User:Tangerineduel|Tangerineduel]] 16:44, March 26, 2010 (UTC) As we've already discussed the plot holes/discontinuity is basically just a discussion. So [[Forum:The Howling]] would be a perfect place for it. (As is already stated in [[Tardis:Format for Television Story Entries#Production errors]]. Having a page for discontinuity is what The Howling was created for, it's a forum for people to discuss the continuity.
*'''[[User:CzechOut|<span style="background:blue;color:white">Czech</span><span style="background:red;color:white">Out</span>]]''' [[User talk:CzechOut|☎]] | [[Special:Contributions/CzechOut|<font size="+1">✍</font>]] 22:01, March 26, 2010 (UTC) I've already talked at length about why. Not quite sure why we're having a ''second'' vote. Asked and answered, as far as I can see. Still, see also newer arguments at [[Talk:Discontinuty, plot holes and other errors]]. Brief recap of arguments: we already have a place set up for this stuff. It's called [[Forum:The Howling]]. Perhaps others could clarify why they're so desperate to have this kind of information go in the main article space?  
*'''[[User:CzechOut|<span style="background:blue;color:white">Czech</span><span style="background:red;color:white">Out</span>]]''' [[User talk:CzechOut|☎]] | [[Special:Contributions/CzechOut|<font size="+1">✍</font>]] 22:01, March 26, 2010 (UTC) I've already talked at length about why. Not quite sure why we're having a ''second'' vote. Asked and answered, as far as I can see. Still, see also newer arguments at [[Talk:Discontinuty, plot holes and other errors]]. Brief recap of arguments: we already have a place set up for this stuff. It's called [[Forum:The Howling]]. Perhaps others could clarify why they're so desperate to have this kind of information go in the main article space?
*[[User:Mini-mitch|Mini-mitch]] 16:24, March 26 2010, (UTC)  
*[[User:Mini-mitch|Mini-mitch]] 16:24, March 26 2010, (UTC)
**After reader your thoughts and opinions, I now understand that it will be easier to move into '''The Howling''', and now create a new page
**After reader your thoughts and opinions, I now understand that it will be easier to move into '''The Howling''', and now create a new page
'''Keep Discontinuity Section, move Production Errors to NEW PAGE'''
'''Keep Discontinuity Section, move Production Errors to NEW PAGE'''
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==General Points==
==General Points==
Would it not be easier, to create a new section in the Forums, for all this! '''Not''' The Howling, but create '''New''' section for all? And the Production Errors stay on the page? Mini-mitch 21:58, March 26, 2010 (UTC)
Would it not be easier, to create a new section in the Forums, for all this! '''Not''' The Howling, but create '''New''' section for all? And the Production Errors stay on the page? Mini-mitch 21:58, March 26, 2010 (UTC)
:I imagine it's fairly easy to create a new forum, sure. But my question would be, why is it necessary? What's wrong with The Howling? When I read the description of The Howling, it matches exactly what I think all this discon stuff is. Do you somehow think this stuff is "too good" for The Howling? '''[[User:CzechOut|<span style="background:blue;color:white">Czech</span><span style="background:red;color:white">Out</span>]]''' [[User talk:CzechOut|☎]] | [[Special:Contributions/CzechOut|<font size="+1">✍</font>]] 22:10, March 26, 2010 (UTC)
:I imagine it's fairly easy to create a new forum, sure. But my question would be, why is it necessary? What's wrong with The Howling? When I read the description of The Howling, it matches exactly what I think all this discon stuff is. Do you somehow think this stuff is "too good" for The Howling? '''[[User:CzechOut|<span style="background:blue;color:white">Czech</span><span style="background:red;color:white">Out</span>]]''' [[User talk:CzechOut|☎]] | [[Special:Contributions/CzechOut|<font size="+1">✍</font>]] 22:10, March 26, 2010 (UTC)
:::I don'y think the stuff is too good for the Howling. Can we please decide what happening and end this debate? Mini-mitch 22:14, March 26, 2010 (UTC)
:::I don'y think the stuff is too good for the Howling. Can we please decide what happening and end this debate? Mini-mitch 22:14, March 26, 2010 (UTC)
::::Okay, but that would be helped by an explanation of why you don't want it on The Howling. What's confusing me, and I daresay [[User:Tangerineduel|Tangerineduel]] is that The Howling is:
::::Okay, but that would be helped by an explanation of why you don't want it on The Howling. What's confusing me, and I daresay [[User:Tangerineduel|Tangerineduel]] is that The Howling is:
:::::"a forum where all contributors to this wiki can solve problems and create fixes for continuity holes, speculate, discuss trivia, and offer up theories on continuity and other points of trivia"
:::::"a forum where all contributors to this wiki can solve problems and create fixes for continuity holes, speculate, discuss trivia, and offer up theories on continuity and other points of trivia"


::::How is that '''not''' the place to put discontinuity information?
::::How is that '''not''' the place to put discontinuity information?


::::Hmm, thinking about this more before you respond . . . Is what you want a nice, orderly article that neatly puts all the stories in order, then branches out to a bit for each story? If that's the case, it could easily be achieved without leaving the howling. What you do is just create a single forum page with 220 subpages (or however many stories there are). The subpages could be easily called up (but only from that page) by use of the following syntax:
::::Hmm, thinking about this more before you respond . . . Is what you want a nice, orderly article that neatly puts all the stories in order, then branches out to a bit for each story? If that's the case, it could easily be achieved without leaving the howling. What you do is just create a single forum page with 220 subpages (or however many stories there are). The subpages could be easily called up (but only from that page) by use of the following syntax:
<pre>
<pre>
[[/An Unearthly Child]]
[[/An Unearthly Child]]
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etc.
etc.
</pre>
</pre>
:::This syntax is a shortcut for typing some big long thing out. So if the main page were [[Forum:The Howling:Doctor Who Discontinuity by episode]], then [[/An Uunearthly Child]] would stand in for [[Forum:The Howling:Doctor Who Discontinuity by episode/An Unearthly Child]].
:::This syntax is a shortcut for typing some big long thing out. So if the main page were [[Forum:The Howling:Doctor Who Discontinuity by episode]], then [[/An Uunearthly Child]] would stand in for [[Forum:The Howling:Doctor Who Discontinuity by episode/An Unearthly Child]].


::::I can see why you might want to have it centralized, but it can definitely be centralized on The Howling. The Fora are just a different namespace, or ''folder'', on the wiki. They're not a barren wasteland where the rules of wiki coding fail to apply. You have precisely the same abilities in The Howling as you do elsewhere. '''[[User:CzechOut|<span style="background:blue;color:white">Czech</span><span style="background:red;color:white">Out</span>]]''' [[User talk:CzechOut|☎]] | [[Special:Contributions/CzechOut|<font size="+1">✍</font>]] 22:26, March 26, 2010 (UTC)
::::I can see why you might want to have it centralized, but it can definitely be centralized on The Howling. The Fora are just a different namespace, or ''folder'', on the wiki. They're not a barren wasteland where the rules of wiki coding fail to apply. You have precisely the same abilities in The Howling as you do elsewhere. '''[[User:CzechOut|<span style="background:blue;color:white">Czech</span><span style="background:red;color:white">Out</span>]]''' [[User talk:CzechOut|☎]] | [[Special:Contributions/CzechOut|<font size="+1">✍</font>]] 22:26, March 26, 2010 (UTC)


:::::Alrighty, taking CzechOut's idea I'd created a proof of concept/beginning of the pages.  
:::::Alrighty, taking CzechOut's idea I'd created a proof of concept/beginning of the pages.
:::::[[Forum:Doctor Who television discontinuity and plot holes]] I've just created links for the first two seasons and created [[Forum:Doctor Who television discontinuity and plot holes/An Unearthly Child]] with all its discontinuity intact from the original page. --[[User:Tangerineduel|Tangerineduel]] 04:23, March 27, 2010 (UTC)
:::::[[Forum:Doctor Who television discontinuity and plot holes]] I've just created links for the first two seasons and created [[Forum:Doctor Who television discontinuity and plot holes/An Unearthly Child]] with all its discontinuity intact from the original page. --[[User:Tangerineduel|Tangerineduel]] 04:23, March 27, 2010 (UTC)
==Putting the decision to work==
==Putting the decision to work==
One thing I've noted in the process of changing over these pages is that there's no obvious sign of where to have discon discussions on the story page. Accordingly, I've changed [[:Template:discontinuity]] to work in both directions. It points to the relevant discon discussion if you put it on a story page, and it points to the relevant story page if you're on a discon page. This might cut down on new discon notes creeping back into production error sections. See [[:Template:Discontinuity/doc]] for more info. '''[[User:CzechOut|<span style="background:blue;color:white">Czech</span><span style="background:red;color:white">Out</span>]]''' [[User talk:CzechOut|☎]] | [[Special:Contributions/CzechOut|<font size="+1">✍</font>]] 21:12, April 25, 2010 (UTC)
One thing I've noted in the process of changing over these pages is that there's no obvious sign of where to have discon discussions on the story page. Accordingly, I've changed [[:Template:discontinuity]] to work in both directions. It points to the relevant discon discussion if you put it on a story page, and it points to the relevant story page if you're on a discon page. This might cut down on new discon notes creeping back into production error sections. See [[:Template:Discontinuity/doc]] for more info. '''[[User:CzechOut|<span style="background:blue;color:white">Czech</span><span style="background:red;color:white">Out</span>]]''' [[User talk:CzechOut|☎]] | [[Special:Contributions/CzechOut|<font size="+1">✍</font>]] 21:12, April 25, 2010 (UTC)
::This has now been put on every story page (at least as far as I can tell, without manually checking all 210+ pages), so you shouldn't need to any work.   Might change the wording of the note to make it slightly less verbose. '''[[User:CzechOut|<span style="background:blue;color:white">Czech</span><span style="background:red;color:white">Out</span>]]''' [[User talk:CzechOut|☎]] | [[Special:Contributions/CzechOut|<font size="+1">✍</font>]] 00:40, April 26, 2010 (UTC)
::This has now been put on every story page (at least as far as I can tell, without manually checking all 210+ pages), so you shouldn't need to any work. Might change the wording of the note to make it slightly less verbose. '''[[User:CzechOut|<span style="background:blue;color:white">Czech</span><span style="background:red;color:white">Out</span>]]''' [[User talk:CzechOut|☎]] | [[Special:Contributions/CzechOut|<font size="+1">✍</font>]] 00:40, April 26, 2010 (UTC)
::I think it should be verbose for now, since it's new, but with the plan to edit it down a bit once people are more familiar with it. Something along the lines of "For a discussion of the narrative discontinuity, click here. You could win an iPod!"
::I think it should be verbose for now, since it's new, but with the plan to edit it down a bit once people are more familiar with it. Something along the lines of "For a discussion of the narrative discontinuity, click here. You could win an iPod!"


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::A related question: would it be appropriate for us at this stage to be moving things ''back'' into "Production Errors" that seem better there? I was just glancing at [[The Tomb of the Cybermen]] and noticed a number of entries actually are production errors, like the film being run backwards and such. [[User:Monkey with a Gun|Monkey with a Gun]] 01:26, May 2, 2010 (UTC)
::A related question: would it be appropriate for us at this stage to be moving things ''back'' into "Production Errors" that seem better there? I was just glancing at [[The Tomb of the Cybermen]] and noticed a number of entries actually are production errors, like the film being run backwards and such. [[User:Monkey with a Gun|Monkey with a Gun]] 01:26, May 2, 2010 (UTC)
:::If it's absolutely, positively, '''crystal''' clear that a thing in the discon forum has been placed there by mistake, yeah you can move it back. But it should be fairly '''completely''' unambiguous, like the example you've noted. And you should make sure you've left behind a good edit summary that explains your rationale for re=placement in the article proper. '''[[User:CzechOut|<span style="background:blue;color:white">Czech</span><span style="background:red;color:white">Out</span>]]''' [[User talk:CzechOut|☎]] | [[Special:Contributions/CzechOut|<font size="+1">✍</font>]] 08:54, May 4, 2010 (UTC)
:::If it's absolutely, positively, '''crystal''' clear that a thing in the discon forum has been placed there by mistake, yeah you can move it back. But it should be fairly '''completely''' unambiguous, like the example you've noted. And you should make sure you've left behind a good edit summary that explains your rationale for re=placement in the article proper. '''[[User:CzechOut|<span style="background:blue;color:white">Czech</span><span style="background:red;color:white">Out</span>]]''' [[User talk:CzechOut|☎]] | [[Special:Contributions/CzechOut|<font size="+1">✍</font>]] 08:54, May 4, 2010 (UTC)


==Slight update==
==Slight update==
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:As for the formatting, personally, I find the indentation easier. But maybe that's because now it looks like what I expect a discussion on a wiki (e.g., on a talk page or a forum thread) to look like....
:As for the formatting, personally, I find the indentation easier. But maybe that's because now it looks like what I expect a discussion on a wiki (e.g., on a talk page or a forum thread) to look like....
::This last paragraph above is bang-on. That was entirely the intent. To make it very like a standard wiki discussion page cause . . . that's what it is. I've got to strongly disagree with [[User:Monkey with a Gun|Monkey with a Gun]]'s second point. It was ''not'' easily readable when you got to heavily contended points. Take for example the "Half-human argument" at [[Forum:Doctor Who television discontinuity and plot holes/Doctor Who (1996)|Doctor Who television discontinuity and plot holes/Doctor Who]]. That was originally one ''very'' long paragraph with italics followed by (parentheticals} followed by non-italics in a six-times-over loop. It was extremely difficult to follow. Now it's one neatly descended set of indentations, making it very obvious where each point ends and the next begins. It's fine, I suppose, if there's one point and one counter point to use italics, but when you get to three arguments about the same point, you really ''have'' to go to either indentation or a table to make it parse correctly.
::This last paragraph above is bang-on. That was entirely the intent. To make it very like a standard wiki discussion page cause . . . that's what it is. I've got to strongly disagree with [[User:Monkey with a Gun|Monkey with a Gun]]'s second point. It was ''not'' easily readable when you got to heavily contended points. Take for example the "Half-human argument" at [[Forum:Doctor Who television discontinuity and plot holes/Doctor Who (1996)|Doctor Who television discontinuity and plot holes/Doctor Who]]. That was originally one ''very'' long paragraph with italics followed by (parentheticals} followed by non-italics in a six-times-over loop. It was extremely difficult to follow. Now it's one neatly descended set of indentations, making it very obvious where each point ends and the next begins. It's fine, I suppose, if there's one point and one counter point to use italics, but when you get to three arguments about the same point, you really ''have'' to go to either indentation or a table to make it parse correctly.


::As for Monkey's other point, individual episode pages spinning out from serial pages are certainly possible, and perhaps even necessary, for some of the longer serials. It'd of course be quite easy to do something like [[Forum:Doctor Who television discontinuity and plot holes/An Unearthly Child/An Unearthly Child]] if you wanted to have a separate page for just episode 1. Thing is, though, having done all of the 1980s serials, I didn't find a single one that had enough notes to justify separate pages. So I wouldn't support a ''universal'' switch-over to episodic subpages, but might be persuaded that ''[[The War Games]]'', ''[[The Daleks' Master Plan]]'', and maybe a few select others might be able to carry separated episode discussions. '''[[User:CzechOut|<span style="background:blue;color:white">Czech</span><span style="background:red;color:white">Out</span>]]''' [[User talk:CzechOut|☎]] | [[Special:Contributions/CzechOut|<font size="+1">✍</font>]] 08:45, May 4, 2010 (UTC)
::As for Monkey's other point, individual episode pages spinning out from serial pages are certainly possible, and perhaps even necessary, for some of the longer serials. It'd of course be quite easy to do something like [[Forum:Doctor Who television discontinuity and plot holes/An Unearthly Child/An Unearthly Child]] if you wanted to have a separate page for just episode 1. Thing is, though, having done all of the 1980s serials, I didn't find a single one that had enough notes to justify separate pages. So I wouldn't support a ''universal'' switch-over to episodic subpages, but might be persuaded that ''[[The War Games]]'', ''[[The Daleks' Master Plan]]'', and maybe a few select others might be able to carry separated episode discussions. '''[[User:CzechOut|<span style="background:blue;color:white">Czech</span><span style="background:red;color:white">Out</span>]]''' [[User talk:CzechOut|☎]] | [[Special:Contributions/CzechOut|<font size="+1">✍</font>]] 08:45, May 4, 2010 (UTC)


:::I was thinking, rather than subbing the subpage, we could just include some sub-headings on the page like; 'Over all story discontinuity' and then 'Individuals Part/Episode continuity'. That way all the story continuity is contained on one page. --[[User:Tangerineduel|Tangerineduel]] 12:22, May 4, 2010 (UTC)
:::I was thinking, rather than subbing the subpage, we could just include some sub-headings on the page like; 'Over all story discontinuity' and then 'Individuals Part/Episode continuity'. That way all the story continuity is contained on one page. --[[User:Tangerineduel|Tangerineduel]] 12:22, May 4, 2010 (UTC)


::::That's a great idea; it gets the best of both worlds. Since there would be a heading for each episode, you could even link to a specific episode if you needed to (e.g., if some specific detail in one episode contradicts something in another episode and you want to reference the earlier in the later). --[[User:Falcotron|Falcotron]] 15:53, May 4, 2010 (UTC)
::::That's a great idea; it gets the best of both worlds. Since there would be a heading for each episode, you could even link to a specific episode if you needed to (e.g., if some specific detail in one episode contradicts something in another episode and you want to reference the earlier in the later). --[[User:Falcotron|Falcotron]] 15:53, May 4, 2010 (UTC)
==Signing==
In the discontinuity pages, should people be signing their answers?<br />
It seems to me that it just makes it look untidy  [[User:Lord Aro|Lord Aro]] 12:51, May 19, 2010 (UTC)
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