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:::: This doesn't matter. The point is that we do not have precedent for creating two pages for the same thing simply because of a minor disagreement. There is no reason to have different pages for the Transformers and the Transformers, robots in disguise. We have no proof they aren't the same organization. [[User:OttselSpy25|OS25]][[User Talk:OttselSpy25|🤙☎️]] 06:11, 8 May 2023 (UTC) | :::: This doesn't matter. The point is that we do not have precedent for creating two pages for the same thing simply because of a minor disagreement. There is no reason to have different pages for the Transformers and the Transformers, robots in disguise. We have no proof they aren't the same organization. [[User:OttselSpy25|OS25]][[User Talk:OttselSpy25|🤙☎️]] 06:11, 8 May 2023 (UTC) | ||
But we ''did'' have precedent, up until last year. Up until last year there were a ''ton'' of pages like this, so much so that I contemplated writing a short story as a joke that had a very loose framing device with a segment in the middle that just said all of the concepts were the same. | |||
:"We have no proof they aren't the same organization." | |||
We have no proof Davros isn't The Doctor, but we aren't merging those pages. Don't be ridiculous. Look, sure, maybe we keep them merged, I'm willing to cede that maybe it's [[T:BOUND]] at the moment, though I really think we need a thread on [[T:NO RW]] sooner rather than later. But the title ''absolutely'' has to be changed. You should never have changed it to what you did, the dab is just completely incorrect. [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 06:22, 8 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
: I'm not being ridiculous! It's not ridiculous to say that the Transformers and the Transformers, robots in disguise are the same! | |||
: Personally, I even disagree that the ''Faction Paradox'' story says they're an organization. I understand T:NO RW says we shouldn't insert real world information, but it doesn't say we should ignore reading comprehension. "Saying she's a member of the Faction Paradox means as much as if I said I was a member of the Transformers" is supposed to not make sense. It doesn't make sense to us, it's not a contradiction when it doesn't make sense with other sources. She's being felicitous. | |||
: As per the DAB, I don't know what you want me to call it. Transformer (species) seems out the window, as you're claiming that they're not a species (despite this not being clarified in either sources we're pulling from). Robot just felt like the right DAB since ''The Incomplete Death's Head'' calls them robots. [[User:OttselSpy25|OS25]][[User Talk:OttselSpy25|🤙☎️]] 06:40, 8 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
::What's ridiculous is that "we have no evidence" proves too much. That ''particular'' statement was ridiculous. | |||
::The point of the statement made is that [[Primo de la Vega]] has just been told by [[Gedarra]] something that gave him ''no information from his frame of reference'', not something that ''literally lacked semantic meaning''. Hence, referring to someone being in a random pop culture group that he knows vague things about at best. The idea that contradictions are okay because it's not supposed to make sense is confusing these two issues. It is '''''not''''' supposed to literally lack semantic meaning, it's not supposed to "not make sense" in that, well, sense. | |||
::I'm not claiming they're not a species. I'm saying that if they're a species then there should be two pages, since the reference the original page contained was about an organization, not a species. If you want to discuss the stuff you've added on a species page, feel free to remove it and make a species page. Please, in no way feel wedded to keeping information that might not belong to a page I created about an organization "Transformers, robots in disguise" on that page. (Robot) is clearly incorrect, as it's conflating the group ''members'' with the ''group''. (Much like confusing [[Dalek]] with [[Dalek Empire]], or the cells that make up the heart with the heart itself.) It should either be "Transformers", "Transformers (group)", Transformers (organization)", "Transformers, robots in disguise", or a similar dab to the middle two. Politely, the entire dab issue is just a giant [https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/category-mistakes/ category error]. [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 07:03, 8 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
But the thing is, I am just not convinced that "organization" is really strongly implied by any of these sources. "group" I guess makes sense... But why not use a DAB that implies the contents of the page? The Transformers are not a group or an organization. It just feels like we're extracting something not anywhere in the text. [[User:OttselSpy25|OS25]][[User Talk:OttselSpy25|🤙☎️]] 07:42, 8 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
:Because, again, it conflates the members of the group with the group itself. Category error, they're not the same thing. As an example, points in R^1 are not the same thing as the space R^1, and I know some people who would insist that the ''set'' R^1, so the intersection of all of these points, or members of the group, is different from the space R^1, or the group itself. Again, [[Dalek]] is not [[Dalek Empire]] | |||
::The Transformers are not a group or an organization. | |||
:I mean, this is clearly [[T:NO RW]]. [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 07:59, 8 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
:: No it's not, because they don't say it is one in any of the stories we cover. You're not arguing for something in the text, you're arguing for something and then gliding off the fact that "hey, the stories don't say this isn't true!" [[User:OttselSpy25|OS25]][[User Talk:OttselSpy25|🤙☎️]] 08:22, 8 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
:::This is literally what ''you'' did. The statement made by Primo doesn't make sense if they're not a group. [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 08:41, 8 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
::::I don't understand. As {{w|species|commonly defined}}, a species is a group, is it not? One can be a member of a species, correct? [Edit: Note that Faction Paradox is [[Time Lord#Race or rank?|also both a joinable organisation and a species…]]] | |||
::::The purpose of this wiki is to serve our readers, not to construct a fictional world out of our valid sources, like some kind of hyper-literal nominalist art project. I'm not saying that you're doing the latter, Najawin, but it seems to me that we best serve our readers if we cover all the information about Transformers on a single page, even if the different appearances cannot technically be connected together using only in-universe evidence. Cf the logic for the merger of [[President (The Pyramid at the End of the World)]] into [[Donald Trump]]. – [[User:NateBumber|n8]] ([[User talk:NateBumber|☎]]) 16:16, 8 May 2023 (UTC) [edited 16:31, 8 May 2023 (UTC)] | |||
That's why I've waffled back on "organization" and "group" here. Linguistically the statement made by Primo makes no sense in reference to a species, but the group in question doesn't necessarily have to have a particularly organized structure. (And, indeed, there's been some discussion on how best to interpret Faction Paradox members re Time Lords in our overall category system recently. see: [[Talk:Faction Paradox]].) | |||
Again, I will have no qualms with changing the rules in a reasonable manner. But as they stand, the current iteration of the page makes absolutely no sense. [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 17:42, 8 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
: Not to sound condescending, but surely Primo's statement can be chalked up to one or two different things. A. he is not being literal. B. he is plain and simply wrong. Could it not be one of those two things? {{User:Epsilon the Eternal/signature}} 17:58, 8 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
::I mean, surely it's B. But, you know, [[T:NO RW]] and all that. Hence, you know, [[U]]. We've discussed this before! Nobody likes it, but that's the way it is, and unless there's a workable, consistent way to enforce a change, that's the rule. At the ''very'' least the dab needs changing. I don't see why that's controversial. [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 18:27, 8 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
