Theory:Doctor Who television discontinuity and plot holes/A Christmas Carol: Difference between revisions

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Theory:Doctor Who television discontinuity and plot holes/A Christmas Carol (edit)

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:By the the year 4000, it can be assumed that longevity has been extended somewhat, so Abigail's family- who live fairly normal and presumably not-too-stressful lives- wouldn't have appeared to age all the much, whereas Kazran lives a rather bitter and negative existance, has appeared to age far more greatly.
:By the the year 4000, it can be assumed that longevity has been extended somewhat, so Abigail's family- who live fairly normal and presumably not-too-stressful lives- wouldn't have appeared to age all the much, whereas Kazran lives a rather bitter and negative existance, has appeared to age far more greatly.
::Yet, her young nephew is still a child when they meet old Kazran. Even with prolonged longevity, a child would most likely mature into adulthood at roughly the same rate.
::Yet, her young nephew is still a child when they meet old Kazran. Even with prolonged longevity, a child would most likely mature into adulthood at roughly the same rate.
::Where to start? How can the Doctor so casually alter time? Not even Zeus can defy Fate, (Prometheus Bound) so how can the Doctor exactly? He can't go round playing with time, that brings Chaos (The Illiad). The only thing that can defy Fate is a Shinigami's Notebook (Death Note) and that must always shorten life. Even for it to extend life, a life must be shortened.
::How come Kazran seems exactly the same when time has been altered? These were huge hanges.
::Abagail never spent a whole day outside the chamber at a time. So technically she still had time left.
::The Doctor says that he has changed Kazran so much that the machine won't work for him. Surely the machine would have been altered to fit within the new timeline?
::Why did Amy and Rory have the policewoman uniform and Roman armour anyway?
:: In the time that the Doctor disregarded rules set down for the universe's safety and which even gods fear to break, he could have probably got all the ship's inhabitants into his Tardis and taken them to a friendlier planet.
::
::
:: Uh, you can't talk about things from other continuities like Death Note and pretend they apply to the Whoniverse! That said, the whole perception of time travel was messed up in this evidence, not to mention the terrible mess-up of the two Kazrans not causing the BLE. This episode was just one massive plothole.
* How can the Doctor so casually alter time?


(edit conflict)
The long and short is "suspencion of disbelief". If we're going to theorize though on how the Doctor gets away with it... The people he is acting to save and manipulating are the "little people" - the ones that really don't count so changing their fate doesn't affect much. Also there is a swing to the changes in Kazran - the Chistmas at Sinatra's being the obiouspush-back.


* How come Kazran seems exactly the same when time has been altered? These were huge hanges.


:On the points:
You have to accept that the POV the story follows is for the most part that of Kazran. He is aware his history is being manipulated, and for the story to work, is comparing the changes. Also, the only physical change shown was to the paining. We don't see the stash of photos or the damages sonic screwdriver "appear" in the present nor do we see them prior to Kazran unearthing them.
:*The long and short is "suspencion of disbelief". If we're going to theorize though on how the Doctor gets away with it... The people he is acting to save and manipulating are the "little people" - the ones that really don't count so changing their fate doesn't affect much. Also there is a swing to the changes in Kazran - the Chistmas at Sinatra's being the obiouspush-back.
:*You have to accept that the POV the story follows is for the most part that of Kazran. He is aware his history is being manipulated, and for the story to work, is comparing the changes. Also, the only physical change shown was to the paining. We don't see the stash of photos or the damages sonic screwdriver "appear" in the present ''nor'' do we see them prior to Kazran unearthing them.
:*Yes, she had a day left. But very little is established as to how long she was out in the Christmases we saw, or that those were the only ones that occured. With out that, the timer could be counting down the interval between each thaw and refreeze, or it could be ticking off a "day" per opening and closing of the unit.
:*The controls "catching up" with Kazran depends on how watching a timeline change actually works. The termoral dynamics could be such that the controls ''or'' Kazran hit an end state first. They are out of synch and the Doctor gives the most obvious answer at the time.
:*Use your imagination - they are on their honneymoon so a few possibilities immediatly present themselves.
:*And that would still leave the ship heading for a crash landing... and possibly cousing death and destruction for the planet.
:And one last thing to keep in mind, very little has been mentioned of how or if the cracks, Silence, and "jump start" from "The Big Bang" have re-worked the laws of time. It maybe that the BLE, fixed points, instantanious changes, staying concurrent with others in the time line, etc have all or in part gone out the window.
:- [[User:Byfield|Byfield]] 08:52, December 27, 2010 (UTC)
:
: I was using an expression of how the will of fate cannot be altered. These little people will become more influential in the future.
:If the ship really was going to cause the planet's destruction, Kazran would probably have let it land.
:
: In the very next scene after the two Kazrans touch, The Doctor discovers that Kazran has now changed so much that the isomorphic controls don't recognize him. This may be the explanation for the lack of BLE. (Alternatively, as we know that a time lord can touch his past selves, it may be that there is some precaution the Doctor could have taken with the younger Kazranto prevent BLE)


* Amy and Rory already went on their honeymoon - it was mentioned in ''[[Death of the Doctor]]''.
* Abagail never spent a whole day outside the chamber at a time. So technically she still had time left.
 
Yes, she had a day left. But very little is established as to how long she was out in the Christmases we saw, or that those were the only ones that occured. With out that, the timer could be counting down the interval between each thaw and refreeze, or it could be ticking off a "day" per opening and closing of the unit.
 
*The Doctor says that he has changed Kazran so much that the machine won't work for him. Surely the machine would have been altered to fit within the new timeline?
 
The controls "catching up" with Kazran depends on how watching a timeline change actually works. The termoral dynamics could be such that the controls or Kazran hit an end state first. They are out of synch and the Doctor gives the most obvious answer at the time.
 
* Why did Amy and Rory have the policewoman uniform and Roman armour anyway?
 
Use your imagination - they are on their honneymoon so a few possibilities immediatly present themselves.
 
* In the time that the Doctor disregarded rules set down for the universe's safety and which even gods fear to break, he could have probably got all the ship's inhabitants into his Tardis and taken them to a friendlier planet.
 
And that would still leave the ship heading for a crash landing... and possibly cousing death and destruction for the planet.
 
He also says the clouds are interfearing and he can't get a lock on it.
* Uh, you can't talk about things from other continuities like Death Note and pretend they apply to the Whoniverse! That said, the whole perception of time travel was messed up in this evidence, not to mention the terrible mess-up of the two Kazrans not causing the BLE. This episode was just one massive plothole.
:* Amy and Rory already went on their honeymoon - it was mentioned in ''[[Death of the Doctor]]''.
::And we at the end the episode with them about to go on another. Why don't you watch the episode?
::And we at the end the episode with them about to go on another. Why don't you watch the episode?
::
::
::Also the ship they were on might have been from that planet.
::Also the ship they were on might have been from that planet.
*When the two Kazrans touch, this should result in a paradox due to the [[Blinovitch Limitation Effect]]. ([[DW]]: ''[[Mawdryn Undead]]'', ''[[Father's Day]]'').
*When the two Kazrans touch, this should result in a paradox due to the [[Blinovitch Limitation Effect]]. ([[DW]]: ''[[Mawdryn Undead]]'', ''[[Father's Day]]'').
:


::Yes, and that's a valid point. However, several possible explanations have been given above. The Doctor may have taken precautions to prevent this. We know Time Lords can do so, and note that the TARDIS door is distinctly open while the two Kazrans interact.
::Yes, and that's a valid point. However, several possible explanations have been given above. The Doctor may have taken precautions to prevent this. We know Time Lords can do so, and note that the TARDIS door is distinctly open while the two Kazrans interact.
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::Another possibility is that the young kazran is from just after he and the doctor first met, and as such, before the doctor changed kazran, meaning that although they were the same person, they different versions of the same person, like how amy was able to touch her younger self withought any problems in the big bang, because due to the changes in time, they had become to different people.
::Another possibility is that the young kazran is from just after he and the doctor first met, and as such, before the doctor changed kazran, meaning that although they were the same person, they different versions of the same person, like how amy was able to touch her younger self withought any problems in the big bang, because due to the changes in time, they had become to different people.
::
::
::  
::It seems like it is possible in the Whoniverse for there to be two "endpoints" in time which are joined together. One endpoint moves through time at the normal rate, whereas the other end moves at a faster rate (e.g The Girl in the Fireplace, Prisoner Zero). So perhaps Timelords have some ability to control this. The Doctor creates two endpoints, one in Kazran's "present", the other in his past, and links them, perhaps by means of the "movie projector". The endpoint in Kazran's present moves forward at a normal rate, so he can be aware of changes being made in his past. The other endpoint moves forward at a faster rate. The Doctor is changing Kazran's past, but in such a way that it only affects Kazran and Abigail. Another way to think of this might be: - when the Doctor travels into Kazran's past and starts changing things, this creates an alternate universe version of Kazran. Over the course of the episode, the original version of Kazran is gradually replaced by the alternate universe version of him, whilst everyhting else - e.g. the controls, remain in their original universe state. [[Special:Contributions/187.112.12.108|187.112.12.108]] 13:07, February 4, 2011 (UTC)
::*It seems like it is possible in the Whoniverse for there to be two "endpoints" in time which are joined together. One endpoint moves through time at the normal rate, whereas the other end moves at a faster rate (e.g The Girl in the Fireplace, Prisoner Zero). So perhaps Timelords have some ability to control this. The Doctor creates two endpoints, one in Kazran's "present", the other in his past, and links them, perhaps by means of the "movie projector". The endpoint in Kazran's present moves forward at a normal rate, so he can be aware of changes being made in his past. The other endpoint moves forward at a faster rate. The Doctor is changing Kazran's past, but in such a way that it only affects Kazran and Abigail. Another way to think of this might be: - when the Doctor travels into Kazran's past and starts changing things, this creates an alternate universe version of Kazran. Over the course of the episode, the original version of Kazran is gradually replaced by the alternate universe version of him, whilst everyhting else - e.g. the controls, remain in their original universe state. [[Special:Contributions/187.112.12.108|187.112.12.108]] 13:07, February 4, 2011 (UTC)
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