Talk:Pure historical

Scope?

Should this page exclusively cover Doctor Who-branded stories, or would other alien-free historical stories from other series count?

Also, how do we feel about stories which do have some kind of SFF twist beyond the time-travelling protagonists, but where that twist is not a conventional alien-monster situation? Is a story disqualified from pure-historical status if it has genuine, but Earth-based and non-temporal, supernatural phenomena like ghosts or gods or fairies, for example? Because arguably Thin Ice ^[+]Loading...["Thin Ice (TV story)"] is a pure historical, depending on where you draw the line. The creature in the Thames is suggested to just be some kind of cryptid unknown to modern science, not a stranded alien. And I see The Marian Conspiracy ^[+]Loading...["The Marian Conspiracy (audio story)"] is listed, but while it takes place in a "pure" "historical" setting, the whole gimmick is that history has diverged from what it should be… so I don't know. Perhaps we should add a "Notes" column to the tables and include explanations of those kinds of caveats?

I guess we also need to figure out how far in the past a story has to be set before it counts as "historical". Lots of stories published in a given year are supposed to take place a couple of years prior: surely that doesn't count. They're "present-day" stories. But where's the cutoff? Five years, ten, fifteen, fifty? We have The Bells of Saint John: A Prequel ^[+]Loading...["The Bells of Saint John: A Prequel (webcast)"] listed, a 2010s story set in the 1990s. And I mean… yeah? I guess? But it surprised me. Feels like a gray area worth discussing. --Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 19:34, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

To begin to address just one of those questions: if we draw the line at 15 years, which I think is sensible — as a length of time commonly understood to represent a generation — then Father's Day ^[+]Loading...["Father's Day (TV story)"] is a pseudo-historical, and The Eleventh Hour ^[+]Loading...["The Eleventh Hour (TV story)"] (just barely) isn't.

Also, what do we do with stories like The Rings of Akhaten ^[+]Loading...["The Rings of Akhaten (TV story)"]? It has extended flashbacks in the distant enough past, but none of that is the main action of the story. It can't be a pure historical and also have an A-plot involving dozens of alien species, not to mention a sentient star, surely.
× SOTO (☎/✍/↯) 01:59, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

A few thoughts:

1. The pitch for The Marian Conspiracy is described as a "Hartnell historical" in the CD booklet. If we have word from the author, producer, or reviewer calling a story a pure historical, we should cite it.
2. Thin Ice is an interesting example. If there any sources debating if it counts a pure historical, they should be cited. Otherwise, any cryptozoological/supernatural/fantasy creature should be treated the same as an alien species.
3. I do think spin-offs should get a mention if they follow the pure historical model: No sci-fi anachronisms outside the main cast and their technology. The Paternoster Gang, Torchwood Soho, Lethbridge-Stewart, etc. all have the possibility of having pure historical stories. Even a UNIT era Third Doctor story could be pure historical.
4. We do have a small problem with short stories. I expect there are plenty of DWU short stories that have no sci-fi elements because they are small scale stories.
5. The bulk of the story should be a pure historical. No need to note that the opening minutes of The Rings of Akhaten is a pure historical. The real question is how would we handle mixed-era stories like The Girl in the Fireplace or Before the Flood if the historical segments were like a pure historical.
6. A 10 to 15 year threshold sounds good.

LegoK9 ☎ 12:26, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Regarding #2: yes, but then I see you list The Witch Hunters ^[+]Loading...["The Witch Hunters (novel)"], which IIRC has a bit of "real" psychic powers stuff n it…

Regarding #3: huh. Now you see the idea of a modern Third Doctor story set in the UNIT era being counted as "a historical" sounds very odd to me; if it's meant to be a pastiche of Doctor Who from a certain era, and uses its now-out-of-date present-day, that seems in narratological terms very different than the NuWho Doctor going back in time to meet Nixon. Hmmmm. Definitely one for a "caveat column" at least, I would argue. --Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 13:02, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure if Operation: Hellfire should be included since it revolves around a Time Lord artifact. BastianBalthazarBux ☎ 21:48, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

"The Witch Hunters, by Steve Lyons, is the first of the pure historical Past Doctor novels." (DWMSE 7)

David Richardson asked Jonathan Barnes to write a "pure historical" for the Third Doctor, which became Operation: Hellfire. If anyone can proved direct quotes from the BFX, that would be great. – The preceding unsigned comment was added by LegoK9 (talk • contribs) 02:24, 26 October 2024.