Talk:River Song/Archive 5

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Cook Yourself a Time Lord

So there've been a couple of edits to the intro section recently about how River came to have some of her "Time Lord-y" qualities, such as superhuman strength and regeneration. Obviously, this is at least in part due to having been conceived in the vortex. The intro right now states that as the only cause. However, A Good Man Goes to Warstrongly implies that she had been or later would be further augmented by the Silence. For example, this exchange:

DOCTOR:Doesn't make sense! You can't just cook yourself a Time Lord.

VASTRA:Of course not, but you gave them one hell of a start and they've been working very hard ever since.

The Biography section seems to give a more balanced account, indicating that the conception in the vortex gave her the "potential" for those abilities. Since I think everyone can agree on that at least, I'm going to copy the line from this section to the intro as well for the time being. Further thoughts?Spreee ^{talk to me} 20:30, April 27, 2012 (UTC)Spreee

Thank you. It should noted that even the Time Lords couldn't just cook a Time Lord every time, even with all the ingredients: exposure to the Untempered Schism over billions of years; building of time ships involving inventing neutron stars; genetic manipulation by Rassilon; a billion years of cultural history; training at the Academy; linkage to a TARDIS via the Rassilon Imprimatur... and not every Gallifreyan was a Time Lord. It's like looking at australopithecus and saying it has the potential to graduate Sandhurst in fifteen million years. I don't believe that River is a Time Lord or Time Lady, but she has many of the marks of one and is as close to one as we're getting -- at least until the 2012 Christmas Special, about which I have some hopes and suspicions. "Part Time Lord" would probably be closer, but given her sui generis nature, it's probably best to point and say "Look! It's a River Song." Boblipton ^{talk to me} 21:05, April 27, 2012 (UTC)

Age at the Library

Okay. Stop and think. River's hair had darkened by then and she had a few winkles. It makes sense it toke place years after her last meeting with the version of the Doctor married to herself.- (173.167.179.77^{talk to me} 18:01, May 15, 2012 (UTC))

She said herself that she changed her age "Just to mess with people", but really just a way of explaining how she looks older in Silence in the Library.

Bisexuality

We've got a little edit war going on over mention of River's bisexuality. I think that regardless of Moffat's tweets on the subject, there's a clear implication in Silence in the Library. She as much as says that she fancies everyone on the expedition except Mr. Lux. I don't think that there's another way to take that exchange. Plus, she comes from the same century as Jack, and it's been made clear elsewhere that people from the 51st century just don't think in the same straight/gay binary that people from the 21st century tend to. —Josiah Rowe ^{talk to me} 01:20, May 21, 2012 (UTC)

"I don't think that there's another way to take that exchange." There are as many ways to take that exchange as there are viewers of that exchange. Personally I took it to mean that she found Lux annoying and uncooperative (as much of the audience probably did) and was happy to conceal his face in his helmet as a way of ignoring him. "I don't fancy you" does not by any stretch of the imagination mean "I fancy everyone else." And it's a pretty big generalization to assume that all people of a given century behave in the exact same way. Shambala108 ^{talk to me} 05:06, May 21, 2012 (UTC)

Here's the full exchange:

RIVER: Anita, unpack the lights. Other Dave, make sure the door's secure, then help Anita. Mr. Lux, put your helmet back on, block the visor. Proper Dave, find an active terminal. I want you to access the Library database, see what you can find about what happened here a hundred years ago. Pretty Boy, you're with me. Step into my office.

LUX: Professor Song, why am I the only one wearing my helmet?

RIVER: I don't fancy you.

In this context, I think that yes, "I don't fancy you" means "I fancy everybody else" (at least, everybody else on the survey team). Yes, she was also doing it to ignore and annoy Lux, but the surface meaning is clear. And since we've got the author confirming that that was what was meant in that scene, I'm not sure what our justification for ignoring it is. —Josiah Rowe ^{talk to me} 05:23, May 21, 2012 (UTC)

Put it in the behind the scenes section with a source pointing to the information that confirms it. As mentioned on the forums Moffat lies a lot on his twitter.

I think sexuality shouldn't be mentioned at all, write what is there in the stories, not the 21st century interpretation of what you see there. --Tangerineduel / talk 14:48, May 21, 2012 (UTC)

I assume that by "sexuality shouldn't be mentioned at all" you're referring only to this particular case? Because it would be pretty hard to rewrite Jack Harkness and remove all references to sexuality. —Josiah Rowe ^{talk to me} 18:23, May 21, 2012 (UTC)

While the remark can be implied as indicating a sexual interest in everyone else, that is a broad and generous -- in some senses of the word -- interpretation. It might simply be a mean-spirited crack. It might be intended to to set off the Doctor. Given the generally omnisexual orientation of the era -- when humans go out in the universe to dance with everyone -- I would expect the language to reflect that with a general weakening of the already weak sexual meaning of to fancy -- according to the Free Online Dictionary, it's the seventh definition as a noun and nowhere in the formal list as a verb currently. I won't cite my proper dictionaries, since they are American English, but Patridge gives it as the third definition, behind "hold a high opinion of". In any case, given the lack of direct evidence in wiki-approved sources -- no narrative evidence other than the weak quote -- it ranks to my mind as gossip. I've worked hard with the generous cooperation of a lot of people here to keep the River Song page as short as possible, since it's a brilliantly written character, one that once had three separate pages.

However, as I have a tendency to do, I digress. We have the statement from Silence in the Library. We have the auctorial statement -- and I have argued elsewhere in regards to The Infinity Doctor that auctorial statements about their intentions don't really impress me. Given that River lies, that Moffat lies and that even if Moffat is not lying it's not proof under the rules of this wiki, it should definitely not appear anyplace but possibly "Behind the scenes" and even there's it's got one possible source. That's not enough to get into a decent newspaper, who like to have three sources.

In addition, it gets into issues of current sexual politics that I'm not anxious to have it there at all. Is it enough to say that you wouldn't kick someone out of bed or must you actually occasionally do something about it to have a sexual orientation? I believe that talk is one thing, but you are what you do. We have direct evidence of Jack Harkness' sexual activities, what with Ianto and a daughter. All we know directly about River are a statement as Mels that she wanted to marry the Doctor, some sultry looks and heavy petting with him. Outside of that, no direct evidence.

of these make me feel that it's a question that we should avoid, like issues of the relationship of Romana and the Fourth Doctor or the way the Third Doctor took Jo Grant's leavetaking so hard. However, I strongly suspect that Tangerineduel's sugegstion is going to be seen as an acceptable compromise. Boblipton ^{talk to me} 02:14, May 22, 2012 (UTC)

We're getting off track trying to extrapolate to some larger "policy" from this discussion. Sexuality obviously can and should be covered by the wiki — not just because of Torchwood, but also because of Benny, Ace, Dodo, and a myriad of scenes running throughout the, well, Virgin Books ranges. The policy which applies here is T:NOT SFW. If sexuality is in the narratives of the DWU it can, will and should be discussed.

So this discussion is clearly about just this one incident, this single episode. "Did River Song declare her bisexuality with this line?" is the only question before us.

If the line were delivered "I don't fancy you", then we might have more to talk about here. With that emphasis, River would more strongly be suggesting that she fancied the other people. But Kingston delivers the line flatly and matter-of-factly: "I don't fancy you". Either way, though, I think you have to take the larger context of the episode into consideration. River's simply being an ass to Lux, because she doesn't like Lux. I don't think she's making some sort of revelation about her sexuality. She's just doing what she can to cut the guy down a notch.

Consider this scenario. Man walks into a bar. Man asks for a beer. Every other patron is drinking a beer, too. Bartender brings a perfectly chilled shot of quintuple-filtered vodka instead. Man asks the bartender why he's the only one drinking vodka. Bartender says, "You look like you've had a rough day. You deserve something special."

Does that mean that the others aren't equally worthy of special treatment, or that the others didn't have a rough day? Not really — not, even, at all. It means that the bartender is answering the man's question somewhat evasively, because she's trying to come across as helpful and ingratiating so that she can get a bigger tip. She's trying to show the man that she can "read" her patrons — something that increases the bartender's "worth" to the man. She's not actually telling the truth — which is that her distributor gave her a deal on this "special" vodka, and she's therefore able to offer it for free so as to encourage guest loyalty.

In the same way, River's just trying to mess with the guy's mind, especially since Lux seems to be the kind of guy who isn't all that sexually successful. She's just doing what sexually potent women do when they want to humiliate a man. This is plain, simple emasculation — not River flying the rainbow flag.

(By the way, what Steven Moffat says here doesn't matter to the main part of this article. In my view, it's a mistake to try to apply something from the Infinity Doctors thread to this argument. Steven Moffat isn't the copyright holder to Silence in the Library, and, in any case, this isn't an inclusion debate. There are therefore no grounds to violate T:CAN's clear assertion that only narrative sources are valid for the writing of in-universe articles.)
czechout<staff /> ☎ ✍ 16:25: Wed 23 May 2012 

'Twasn't my intention to drag in The Infinity Doctor, Czechout. My mention was simply to make the point that I try to consistently apply a standard of auctorial intent doesn't matter. Others may wish to apply it on a case-by-case basis. Boblipton ^{talk to me} 18:39, May 23, 2012 (UTC)

Well, if (as it seems) the majority of active users don't think that the "I don't fancy you" line implies that she fancies the other members of the party, then I suppose the matter of her bisexuality can be moved to "Behind the scenes". I do think that it deserves mention there, though.

And, as an aside, I'd question whether we can or should extrapolate anything from the probable semantic evolution of the word "fancy", especially since it's reasonable to assume that we're getting the TARDIS-translated diction anyway. Realistically, it's unlikely that any language spoken in the 51st century would be comprehensible to a speaker of 21st century English; it would be the equivalent of someone from the 10th century BC understanding us. If we're going to work with the meanings of words, we have to do so in the context of a contemporary viewer's understanding. And in that context, the first definition given in the Oxford Dictionary online (make sure you're in the "World English" version) is:

1 British informal feel a desire or liking for:

• do you fancy a drink?

find sexually attractive:

• I really fancy him

I think it's pretty unarguable that that is the sense in which River is using the word; though I reluctantly concede that it's possible not to draw the conclusion that she fancies everybody else in the party. (Again, that was what I thought on first viewing, and it's still my reading of the exchange; but apparently I'm in the minority on this, and I won't push any further for in-universe inclusion.) —Josiah Rowe ^{talk to me} 19:37, May 23, 2012 (UTC)

A reasonable point, but there's weakening in terms of not only what the words mean but when they are said. I'm reminded of George Carlin's routine about the Seven Words You Can't Say on Television... taboo word, taboo subjects... heck, even today Doctor Who is limited in what it can say by being a pre-watershed show as opposed to what has gone on in Torchwood. I recall thinking while watching Let's Kill Hitler when Mels said she wanted to marry the Doctor, that it was a euphemism, even though it set up the jokes that followed.

We all know that the task of writing and editing is far more complicated than the hoped for easy flow of words that results. Thanks for opposing my position with logic, care and good humor. Boblipton ^{talk to me} 21:01, May 23, 2012 (UTC)

Hmmm. Forgive me, but I've just gotta say it. Does the fact that Bob thanked Josiah for opposing "with logic, care and good humor" imply that Bob doesn't think the rest of us do that? I don't really think Bob thinks that, so he's kinda inadvertently proven my point. We often say things in pointed reference to a single person that can be incorrectly assumed to apply the opposite to the group of people to which the hypothetical person belongs.

I think Josiah's right in his interpretation of what the word "fancy" means. She is saying that she doesn't find him sexually attractive. Given that Silence is written and performed for a primarily British audience "fancy" does unmistakably mean "find sexually attractive". And I also think that she's making him feel inferior by suggesting that she fancies everyone else. But I just don't think she's telling the truth. She's being hyperbolic. As we found out in The Wedding of River Song, River is an habitual liar. And its a basic facet of the character that she is an incurable tease.
czechout<staff /> ☎ ✍ 22:32: Wed 23 May 2012 

As the editing war started between Josiah Rowe and me, I thought it was appropriate to note that he behaved in a gentlemanly fashion throughout. Rest assured I shall never say that about Czechout -- out of consideration for others, of course. Boblipton ^{talk to me} 23:37, May 23, 2012 (UTC)

You call that an editing war? Flea bitings, Lipton, flea bitings! (Can you tell I'm watching along with the Wife in Space, and just re-watched Deadly Assassin?) —Josiah Rowe ^{talk to me} 02:23, May 24, 2012 (UTC)

Vortex Manipulator

River bought in The Pandorica Opens. AND she had it in later stories; the Doctor doesn't come to get her (unless it's for her birthday). The logical explanation is that it is the first adventure she has with it following her date to see the starriest night in the universe. Anybody care to disagee with me here? If so, look over the episode again and again; if the Doctor doesn't pick her up, she ALREADY has the device, making "Rebooting the Univerese" the first adventure she had with it. The outfit she was wearing was even the same as in First Night when she went on that date; think about it, PLEASE! (173.167.179.77^{talk to me} 21:26, June 15, 2012 (UTC))

I think we covered this over in the forums -- forgive me if I can't recall where precisely. River might have picked up another manipulator, but the wacky hypothesis I offered is that since The Pandorica Opens/The Big Bang the DWU is actually an alternative universe brought into existence by her remembering the Doctor back into existence. Reality is what Amy Pond remembers it as being. If Mom remembers River as having a vortex manipulator to shlep through all space and time, then that's what happens all right. However, since we currently don't have hard information, it doesn't belong on the front page. Boblipton ^{talk to me} 12:18, June 17, 2012 (UTC)

Tenth Doctor companion or not?

I've noticed a lot of back and forth about her status in the past and I was hoping we could sort it out. I checked through the archives and didn't find a similar discussion, so hopefully this isn't retreading old ground.

Given that River has apparently shared more than one adventure with him (I believe Steven Moffat has said that her adventure with him at the Bone Meadows or Asgard was with Ten) there's certainly an argument for it. I think that given that she spends as much (or more) time with the Doctor in Forest of the Dead as Donna does, she might at least be considered as one of his single-adventure companions. Memnarc ^{talk to me} 10:27, June 17, 2012 (UTC)

I agree there's an argument for it and my first impilse is "what's the trouble? Contrariwise, I also think that the category "companion" is a lollipop offered for a good boy or girl, given the arguments that roar over it. Criteria for "companion" include star-line credits, a long-term contract, travelling in the Doctor's TARDIS, knowing who he is and being a friend of his. Therefore the Master qualifies as a companion! Of course, the producing body (BBC, DWM and Big Finish among them) never use the word, so we can toss the Master.... if we like. Can we not say as much about River? If so where's te objectivity that defines a fact?Boblipton ^{talk to me} 11:58, June 17, 2012 (UTC)

The Eternity Clock - When?

I'm wondering if the placement of the Eternity Clock in her timeline/history is incorrect as she is in Stormcage when the Doctor phones her at the beginning. She then escapes and has her adventures in time and space with him. Unless I'm incorrect, this should be placed post-"killing" the Doctor.

Tell me what you think? TheFartyDoctor ^Talk 23:28, August 3, 2012 (UTC)

Wait, I just read it was placed there because of her clothes... ignore my comment haha XD

TheFartyDoctor ^Talk 23:29, August 3, 2012 (UTC)

Species

Why is River listed as Human instead of Human Plus, as she is described as in "A Good Man Goes to War"? 75.141.237.131^{talk to me} 23:28, October 7, 2012 (UTC)

If you're referring to the infobox, there's a very simple reason. The "species" variable in the infoboxes can only take one name. If more is added (say, adding Time Lord to Human), it creates a redlink that in most cases will never be made into an article. Therefore, we put the original species name in most of the cases, and River/Melody was human before she was mucked around with. Shambala108 ☎ 23:49, October 7, 2012 (UTC)

I'm not talking about adding Human and Time Lord as two different species in the same slot, I'm talking about putting in simply, "Human Plus." And what is the harm in creating a page that explains what Human Plus is? Mewiet ☎ 16:33, October 10, 2012 (UTC)

Well, first of all, human plus is not a species. If you only include "human plus time lord" then what about all the other "human plus" species? And if you include all the different "human pluses", then you are no longer talking about only one species.

There is really no need to get so specific in an infobox. It is a brief summary that should encourage readers to read the article. It is stated in the article that she is human plus time lord, so the information is available. Shambala108 ☎ 00:27, October 11, 2012 (UTC)

A Night in Darillium timeline

Can we move the "A Night in Darillium" to the undated events section? River says in Forest of the Dead that the last time she saw the "real Doctor" was a Night in Darillium.

"The last time I saw you—the real you, the future you, I mean—you turned up on my doorstep with a new haircut and a suit. You took me to Darillium. To see the Singing Towers. Oh, what a night that was. The towers sang, and you cried. You wouldn't tell me why but I suppose you knew it was time. My time. Time to come to the Library. You even gave me your screwdriver."

But we also know that at a certain point River starts meeting the Doctor younger and younger. A Doctor who knows her less and less well. She fears the day that she meets a Doctor who doesn't know her. From what we've seen of how her timeline works the Night in Darillium isn't the last time she sees the Doctor before the events of the Library, it's the last time she sees a Doctor who she's married to. A Doctor who knows her and loves her. A Doctor who would cry knowing her death was coming. A Doctor who'd show up on her porch with a haircut and a new suit and take her out on a date.

The River Song at the Pandorica and Byzantium has already experienced Darillium, because the Doctor that River Song meets during these events doesn't yet love her and wouldn't show up on her doorstep. Heck, he probably doesn't even know where her doorstep is. Anoted ☎ 23:34, April 20, 2013 (UTC)

The anecdote about Darillium itself puts the lie to the idea that it's a steady progression where he knows her less and less. We know that the River at the Pandorica and the Byzantium are actually earlier than some, as she knows of them to ask the Doctor. Darillium is just what she said - after everything else, except for the part where she didn't realise she'd crossed with it, during Night and the Doctor.--ComicBookGoddess ☎ 02:18, April 23, 2013 (UTC)

The Darillium anecdote doesn't really test the idea of River seeing a younger and younger Doctor after a certain point. According to River, after the events of Demon's Run (the time she returns, not the time she's born), every time she meets the Doctor she's meeting a younger Doctor. Ostensibly this means that her timeline goes Demon's Run, Lake Silencio (as a guest, not as a killer), Pandorica, Byzantium, wine with mum and dad in their backyard, the Library. Nothing she says means that Darillium can't be before Demon's Run. Demon's Run is where the Doctor discovers who River is, and so the Doctor at Demon's Run isn't really her Doctor. Her Doctor has always known who she is, has known who she is longer than she has. Her Doctor has always loved her. Remember, she marries the Doctor the second time she meets him. The Doctor she knows and loves has always been her husband. So Darillium is perhaps the last time she sees the Doctor who is her husband. When she shows up at Demon's Run she realises that the Doctor who is her husband is no longer the Doctor she sees. This makes Darillium the last adventure she has with the Doctor before Demon's Run. The events of the Angels Take Manhattan is slightly more problematic as we're using her being pardoned as a timeline indicator that this comes after the events of the Byzantium. But this is an adventure with a married River and Doctor so that's really not likely. You can consider her being in prison after her being pardoned a continuity error or you can see it as a result of following the Doctor's casual nexus. Either way, the way we currently have these events listed isn't correct. Anoted ☎ 15:27, May 10, 2013 (UTC)

Scratch that, the River in Angels Take Manhattan is also now a professor. Darillium isn't an issue on it's own, but when you throw the Angels Take Manhattan into the mix her whole thing gets really screwed up. Because the events of Angel means that she isn't seeing the Doctor in reverse order after the events of Demon's Run. She has multiple adventures with a Doctor who knows her less and less after the events of Demon's Run, but she also still has adventures with the Doctor who is her husband. I think this discussion should probably be move to Theory:Timeline - River Song, though because we do really have a page for this. Anoted ☎ 15:59, May 10, 2013 (UTC)

I guess the only thing we know for sure, is the events/meetings happen for the DOCTOR in the order they are broadcast. The only exception is the minisode "Last Night" which partially shows the 11th Doctor's last night with River before she heads to the Library. -- Future Companion

Most of River Song's timeline is fairly easily understood and it's all documented at Theory:Timeline - River Song. The one problem is The Angels Take Manhattan. Not counting that story, River's assertion that she meets a continuously younger Doctor from Demon's Run until her death makes perfect sense. The Angels Take Manhattan contradicts earlier continuity assertions. It's not surprising that Angels Take Manhattan came out after the CON episode in which River laid out her timeline. I'm really inclined to think that this is due to error or the writer's changing their minds. The idea of River meeting a consecutively younger Doctor after a certain point packs a good emotional punch but trying it down the way they did tied them in to only showing a younger River, which means not being able to explore at all a River who's out of jail, a River who's a professor--any of that. I think Moffat regretted expressly setting up River's timeline so that Byzantium was immediately followed by the Library and so added this in. The punch of her seeing a Doctor who doesn't really know her is still fully there, but there's then a nice surprise, a bit of relief when she once again has an adventure with a Doctor who knows her. It may make the times when he doesn't know her more poignant because she never knows what she's going to get. The only thing that really directly contradicts this is the River Song:Her Story, and for all we know Moff considers that non-canon or incomplete. Anoted ☎ 00:53, May 11, 2013 (UTC)