Talk:The Terror of the Umpty Ums (short story)
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Deciding how to handle this[[edit source]]
As User:Scrooge MacDuck's edit summary states, this story doesn’t indicate whether it is set in N-Space and Karpagnon is watching the in-universe Doctor Who (Remembrance of the Daleks), or if it set in a meta-fiction universe similar to that seen in TV Action! and The Girl Who Loved Doctor Who, where N-Space itself is fictional. I'm not sure exactly how we should handle this, but considering both would be speculation, perhaps it should be neither and have its own version of the Thirteenth Doctor and Doctor Who? Chubby Potato ☎ 06:30, April 8, 2020 (UTC)
- Would it really be necessary to create The Doctor (The Terror of the Umpty Ums? I think the Doctor and TV show matches with Doctor Who (Remembrance of the Daleks) enough for it to be covered on that page, and at Doctor Who (Salvation). In most cases, unless evidence presents itself, all stories are presumed to be taking place in N-Space, I don't see why this one should be any different. Danochy ☎ 09:45, April 8, 2020 (UTC)
- Coming back to this, I'm not sure it's even proper to reference a character like "The Doctor (anything)" (nor am I sure we shouldn't, for the record), as the story makes it clear that the character we think is the Doctor is in fact Karpagnon's mental illness. Obviously this is filtered through Moffat's love for metafiction and his view that being a fictional character doesn't stop you from being the Doctor, but that doesn't mean we should treat this as a story in which the Doctor, understood in the way in which we normally sort these things, appears. Najawin ☎ 06:28, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
- I mean, we have pages for imaginary characters. And it was decided in the Forums that, at least as far as television was concerned, hallucinations counted as Appearances — Amy Pond is held to appear in TV: The Time of the Doctor, for example. Whether we want to create a specific page for the fictional Doctor Karpagnon imagines, or simply document her in Thirteenth Doctor and/or The Doctor in popular culture and mythology, is another matter. Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 12:12, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
- Fair enough on the forum point, I wasn't aware of that. Though that does probably get into the whole appearance vs allusion discussion that was going on when the forums were closed, since it would likely have ramifications for that. Najawin ☎ 17:49, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
- As I recall, it was brought up by User:CzechOut in one of these discussions as a point of inarguable policy — which is, for performed media, if there is a performer credited for portraying a character, then that character appears regardless of any in-universe caveats. As such its applicability or lack thereof to appearances in prose and suchlike was indeed one of the moving parts of the wider debates. Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 17:54, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
- Fair enough on the forum point, I wasn't aware of that. Though that does probably get into the whole appearance vs allusion discussion that was going on when the forums were closed, since it would likely have ramifications for that. Najawin ☎ 17:49, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
- I mean, we have pages for imaginary characters. And it was decided in the Forums that, at least as far as television was concerned, hallucinations counted as Appearances — Amy Pond is held to appear in TV: The Time of the Doctor, for example. Whether we want to create a specific page for the fictional Doctor Karpagnon imagines, or simply document her in Thirteenth Doctor and/or The Doctor in popular culture and mythology, is another matter. Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 12:12, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
- Coming back to this, I'm not sure it's even proper to reference a character like "The Doctor (anything)" (nor am I sure we shouldn't, for the record), as the story makes it clear that the character we think is the Doctor is in fact Karpagnon's mental illness. Obviously this is filtered through Moffat's love for metafiction and his view that being a fictional character doesn't stop you from being the Doctor, but that doesn't mean we should treat this as a story in which the Doctor, understood in the way in which we normally sort these things, appears. Najawin ☎ 06:28, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
