Talk:Ursino Six

"Planet of Pandas"

The fact that Panda speculated that he came from a "Planet of Pandas" has absolutely no relation to this planet of Teddy Bears that was introduced in a story seven years later. If one day the two are confirmed to be the same place then it can be included, but this is pure supposition at present. RadMatter ☎ 21:48, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

Okay, let's examine the evidence.

In PROSE: Enter Wildthyme, during a barney between Iris Wildthyme and Panda about Panda's origins, it is brought up that Panda could've originated from a "whole planet of Pandas", with Panda speculating where he came from "everybody is ten inches high with small black ears and piercingly intelligent button-bright eyes" - though Iris doesn't place much faith in this.

In PROSE: Teddy Sparkles Must Die!, it is revealed that such a planet exists, a "Planet of the Bears". Bear (pun not intended) in mind that these bears are stuffed animals, not actual bears.

So, how does this connect?

Firstly, pandas are bears. Despite Panda's indignant claims.

Secondly, we see that in PROSE: Teddy Sparkles Must Die! the titular Teddy Sparkles is remarkably like Panda, with the same speech patterns, (loud, booming voice, etc, etc) both are stuffed animals, both are the same-ish height. The point is, is that it is very clear that Magrs has taken this reference in PROSE: Enter Wildthyme, and significantly expanded upon it in PROSE: Teddy Sparkles Must Die!. This ties into Panda's belief that there could be a whole planet of individuals like him.

So the fact that these are on the same page is not speculation, as this is far too specific to be a coincidence, and that with the evidence provided we surely do not need additional confirmation about something that likely never will be brought up again.

The only issue I see here is that Panda does not have the abilities of a reality-engineer, however the point is made in PROSE: Teddy Sparkles Must Die! is that Teddy Sparkles's powers actually waned over the course of forty-odd years he had spent trapped in an attic. Who is to say that a similar fate didn't befall Panda? It is worth noting that in AUDIO: Wildthyme at Large, Panda does mention that he had had many adventures before setting down with Tom, so there is room for Panda's powers dissipating.

Epsilon📯 📂

01:17, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

Also, please can you refrain from referring to the contentious information as false? As you see, it certainly is not; it is only disputed. The claim that both I, and @TheChampionOfTime, (the editor who first brought to light the information over on Panda) have inserted false information feels rather... like an attack of sorts, though I doubt you meant it as such.

Epsilon📯 📂

01:37, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

Firstly, it is not a personal attack to call out false information on an article. It would be a personal attack if I was suggesting that you had inserted false information with intent, but I do not believe that this is the case.

As you have said yourself in Enter Wildthyme Panda speculates as to where he is from. He does not know that the "whole planet of Pandas" exists and he certainly does not know about Ursino Six. He is purely speculating. Then when Ursino Six is introduced seven years later it is not even in a story related to Panda and the things that Panda speculated about his homeworld aren't true to Ursino Six. For example; Panda suggested that the whole would be full of Pandas, this simply isn't true as other types of bears exist on Ursino Six, then Panda speculated that all inhabitants would have "small black ears"... again this is untrue to Ursino Six as the only character confirmed to come from that planet - Teddy Sparkles - has never been depicted with black ears in all of his appearances.

To conclude; Panda's speculation that he came from a world that he doesn't even know exists is not enough to tie him to Ursino Six. RadMatter ☎ 08:02, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

That being said, let's say, in a random novel, a companion or an amnesiac Doctor speculates that the Doctor came from "a big orange planet" with other such roguish time travellers.

We would surely identify that as Gallifrey, would we not? Even if Gallifrey isn't really filled with rogues.

Even if the character unintentionally identifies the planet, they still identify it one way or another, do they not?

But like I said, pandas are a type of bear. As in PROSE: Teddy Sparkles Must Die!, Missy mentions that the planet is a "Planet of the Bears" - this is a broad generalization. Pandas are likely among the array of denizens of the planet.

Epsilon📯 📂

12:16, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

I am really struggling to find the words to explain this, and I am really hoping someone will jump in and explain for me.

The example you gave of a character speculating that the Doctor comes from a "big orange planet full of time travellers" is far too specific. That is not what happened in this case, Panda simply speculated that he came from a "planet full of Pandas" - he does not know that this planet exists. A more accurate example would be Leandro saying that he came from a "world full of felines" and then you jumping to the conclusion that he must be an inhabitant of New Earth because of the Sisters of Plenitude. Unless it is stated lets stop adding our own speculation and possible fanfiction? RadMatter ☎ 16:35, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

I think whether he says "a planet full of pandas" or "a planet full of Pandas" is an important variable. Does he mean "a planet full of panda-the-animals", or does the individual named Panda say "a planet full of Pandas" as an alien might speculate that Amy Pond came from "a planet full of Amies"? If it's the latter, I'm inclined to think the relationship is intentional, and would deserve at least a "Behind the scenes" note. "Beings like Panda" does not imply "panda bears" but rather "surprisingly intelligent stuffed animals with deep voices", so Ursino Six would fit the bill.

Additionally, it's important to approach this within the framework of Paul Magrs's style as a writer. With Magrs, positive connections often mean something (though sometimes they don't), but discontinuity is a meaningless concept. His characters keep changing names and backstories. Thus, if there are sufficient clues to point towards identity, small discrepancies should not prevent us from highlighting the intended literary implications.

I don't think this is as clear-cut as Epsilon makes it ought to be, but equally, RadMatter, I don't think Epsilon's interpretation is anywhere near enough of a stretch to warrant accusations of "speculation" and "fanfiction". At worse this is a metatextual connection too thin to be used in the in-universe portion of the Wiki; but in terms of literary criticism it is quite possible that there is at least an intellectual connection in the mind of Paul Magrs (in the same way that although Sally Sparrow is not Sally Sparrow in-universe, there is clearly a connection there, albeit just a real-world one).

Or at the very least, I think it's evident that Magrs intended for Ursino Six to be a possible homeworld for Panda, even if this is not explicitly stated. This doesn't mean we necessarily should write as much in the in-universe sections of the Wiki (we don't consider the Celestial Toymaker to be a Time Lord, Mestizer to be the Master the Woman to be the Doctor's mother!), but it is at least as obvious as those cases. I suppose the question does raise itself of whether we would include the Enter Wildthyme comment even if Ursino Six were confirmed as Panda's home planet "in one account"; but let's at least agree that only the Wiki's rules about authorial intent separate us from that puzzle. Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 16:53, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

It is the latter example, with "Panda" being capitalised, though I feel I ought to clarify something.

The exchange began with Panda saying...

I reply hotly - that there’s nothing unusual about my make-up! Not where I come from! I bet that there, everyone is ten inches high with small black ears and piercingly intelligent button-bright eyes.Panda

... with Iris replying...

How do you even know that? Who’s to say there’s a whole planet of Pandas out there somewhere? I think you’d better prepare yourself to face the fact that... well, you might be... the only one.’"Katy Manning" Iris

So it was Panda who postulated that such a place existed, then Iris gave it a sort of unofficial name, though she didn't believe that such a place existed.

It was in PROSE: Teddy Sparkles Must Die! that showed that Panda's theory was correct, proving Iris wrong, where a planet filled with individuals like himself existed (albeit without the black ears). In the same story, it was Missy who said...

‘You …! Why, sometimes I wish I’d never kidnapped you from that silly little Planet of the Bears where I found you. You’ve been far too much bother.’Missy

Ursino Six is identified in the story as the home of a race of "reality-engineers", which Teddy Sparkles was one of.

He belonged a race of wily reality-engineers from Ursino Six.Narration by Missy

Epsilon📯 📂

17:16, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

Again, Panda clearly does not know that this planet exists therefore his speculation of such a world is not a mention of the planet so it shouldn't be listed as "First mentioned in". This sort of false information could lead to readers looking for specific mention of Ursino Six while reading Enter Wildthyme... and obviously they will find none. RadMatter ☎ 18:10, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

Conversely, I reckon that this information should be retained as it is of interest to the readers. Perhaps it shouldn't be listed in the "First mentioned in" field, but the information should definitely stay on the in-universe part of the page, albeit with it worded to reflect the ambiguity of Panda's theory/postulation/speculation/whatever.

Epsilon📯 📂

18:15, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

There's no ambiguity. He doesn't know this planet exists and wasn't referring to it. Where is the ambiguity in that? It should be BTS at best. RadMatter ☎ 18:17, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

I disagree - while he doesn't know if it is real, he still referencing a very specific planet filled with individuals just like him - which, as we've established, has been to be a real place in another one of Magrs's stories.

Epsilon📯 📂

18:44, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

He can't be referencing a specific planet if he has no idea such a planet exists... RadMatter ☎ 19:29, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

Nah. Y'see, the Panda referenced the planet, then a story was told that established that planet good and proper.

Epsilon📯 📂

20:53, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

Six months later, no resolution. Can either somebody else weigh in, or can this be resolved?

Epsilon📯 📂

14:23, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

Yes please, this one is an extremely straight forward case of supposition. It would likely take only a few seconds for an admin to make a ruling.

If a character in An Unearthly Child pondered the possibility of life on other planets... that character is not referencing Skaro, or Telos, or Adipose 3, because a) the characters wouldn't know of their existence and b) the writers hadn't even created them yet.

That is exactly the case with Ursino Six. Panda did not know such a planet existed therefore couldn't be referencing it, and Paul Magrs hadn't even created the planet either. In no source has this planet of bears been confirmed as Panda's homeworld so until that happens we shouldn't be stating it. RadMatter ☎ 14:49, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

Well, not exactly; while that is a good analogy, it's not entirely accuarate. Imagine a scenario where Dr. Who speculated in AUC about a planet full of cyborgs, and then later Mondas is established. It would be connection, would it not?

Also, you will find that nowhere on the Wiki states that "Panda's homeworld is Ursino Six"; all that is being said is that Panda speculated that he could've come from a planet of beings not unlike himself, and then showing that in another story such a planet does actaully exist.

And given Magrs, how do we know that Magrs had not been planning to introduce a "planet of Pandas"? It's a bit like Magrs planning to reimagining of Narnia, which just so happened in another story.

Epsilon📯 📂

15:30, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

Simply put, no it wouldn't be a connection. There are a lot of "planets full of cyborgs" - Skaro itself being one of them. So, again, it would be pure supposition in that example to assume it was a "connection" to Mondas. Likewise, there could be a thousand "planet of bears" in the universe (Star Wars literally has bear-like creatures as inhabitants of the moons of Endor).

All I am after is for the in-universe notes to be moved to the BTS section, and Ursino Six shouldn't be listed as having been "first mentioned" in a story seven years before it was even created by the author (your point about not knowing if Magrs was intending to introduce this planet all along is invalid because in the state of being unsure we should always go with what we know for a fact and Ursino Six wasn't mentioned until Teddy Sparkles Must Die!). RadMatter ☎ 18:37, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

The cyborgs were an example. They aren't as specific as the denizens of Ursino Six.

Okay, revised analogy: it would be like the Doctor speculating that a planet of noseless dogs exists, and then it being revealed to be real in TV: The Parting of the Ways.

Regardless, treating this as a coincidence, a fact that can only be documented in the behind the scenes section, doesn't work for me. The reference is too specific.

I think you're also looking at this from the wrong angle. I think you should view it as "in one story, Panda and Iris mentioned a planet, which probably didn't exist, but Magrs took the idea, developed it, and made it that, despite all likelihood being against it, it did in fact exist".

I personally think it may be worth actually asking Magrs about this instead of trying to decipher it ourselves.

Epsilon📯 📂

09:04, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

It was an excellent example as it helped to showcase the flaws in your thinking.

As for your revised example, if the Doctor doesn't know about a specific planet with noseless dogs and is only speculating about its existence he is not referencing any later planet that he would come to learn about as at the time he didn't know of its existence.

It is exactly the same as say... Clara Oswald saying in The Bells of Saint John that she hopes to meet the love of her life one day and treating this as the first mention of Danny Pink... it is flawed thinking!

All we know is that Panda speculated that there could be a planet full of pandas exactly like him (specifically "ten inches high with small black ears and piercingly intelligent button-bright eyes") and then nearly a decade later Paul Magrs introduced a planet of bears (not pandas!) where one of the inhabitants doesn't even look like Panda described in the slightest. RadMatter ☎ 13:32, 12 January 2022 (UTC)