Forum:BBV and canon policy: Difference between revisions

{{archive|Panopticon archives}}[[category:inclusion debates]]

BBV weren't like [[Big Finish]] or [[COMIC]]. They '''never, ever''' had a full license to produce ''Doctor Who'' fiction. In fact, they had no license whatever from the BBC. So characters that looked like wholly-BBC-owned characters, like the Doctor, couldn't actually ''be'' those characters. The Nick Briggs BBV character, Fred, is therefore '''Fred''', not, as was previously intimated by redirect, [[The Doctor (Party Animals)|a version of the Doctor who appeared briefly in '''official''' DWM comics]]. I think we need to remember and clearly state in our canon policy that BBV productions are '''at best''' ''semi''-canonical, because they ''never'' involve the rights of the BBC. However, '''at worst''' they're '''not at all''' canonical, because quite a bit of BBV's output doesn't involve the rights of even ''Doctor Who'' writers.

#The '''creation''' of a template, like {{tl|notdwu}}, to be clearly displayed the top of allowed BBV articles. It should read something like, "'This topic related to [[BBV Productions]] is only semi-canonical, as rights to create it were granted by the original ''Doctor Who'' writer, but not by the BBC.

*[[Auton (home video)|Auton]]

====The [[I (Seeing I)|I]]====

*[[I Scream (audio story)|I Scream]]

*{{fp|The Eleven Day Empire}}

*{{fp|The Shadow Play}}

*{{fp|Sabbath Dei}}

*{{fp|In the Year of the Cat}}

*{{fp|Movers}}

*{{fp|A Labyrinth of Histories}}

====[[P.R.O.B.E. (series)|P.R.O.B.E.]]====

*[[Eye of the Storm (comic story)|Eye of the Storm]]

Guy de Carnac is from [[Sanctuary]]. He gets a fake cameo in [[Happy Endings]]. Like [[Miranda (comic story)]], its a spinoff from the character's creator. --[[User:Nyktimos|Nyktimos]] 01:35, January 30, 2011 (UTC)

::::::::*The Time Travellers (series) isn't a part of the DWU and shouldn't be covered here. Again, ''approximations'' of characters wholly owned by the BBC aren't the characters themselves, and so therefore aren't deserving of coverage.

:::We would definitely need to create new language within [[tardis:canon policy]] to explain this, however. Especially since [[Faction Paradox]] ''is'' canonical, but the lines referred to by the acronym FP are not. Articles like [[Hellfire Club]], Timeship and rather incredibly [[Theory:Timeline - Eighth Doctor]] really bug me, because they claim a mixture of FP and DWU sources which imply a consistent narrative that simply doesn't exist. The timeline article really has me shakin' my head, because, as ''[[Toy Story]]'' appears in the Mad Norwegian version of ''[[Dead Romance]]'', it can't include language that identifies the Doctor or any other BBC elements (or if it does, it does so quite illegally). And its original printing was in a charity publication, so there was ''never'' any BBC license employed. It's '''fan fiction''' written by a published author, who then later repurposed it in such a way that he could publish it in his own line of books.

**[[Eye of the Storm (comic story)|Eye of the Storm]]

*[[P.R.O.B.E. (series)|P.R.O.B.E.]] - Again, how is [[Liz Shaw]] present? The Wikipedia article says they got the rights to use the character, but . . . how? Who the hell owns Liz Shaw ''but'' the BBC? The Wikipedia article gives no source for their assertion. If she's not, in fact, legally present, then the videos are, again, fan films.

*FP - There's more than enough to be getting on with, above. We can settle this at a later date in a discussion just about FP. Suffice it to say, though, I don't think the presence of DW elements in FP (and, please tell me they're in more than just ''[[Toy Story]]'', which clearly doesn't count as "true" FP or "true" DW) means diddly. ''How'' are the DW elements present, precisely? And ultimately, why should I believe you guys when the creator of the FP universe is directly telling me in an interview that the FP universe '''is not''' the DWU?

Miles explains the FPU in the Book of the War et al. as being shaped by the War itself, thus meaning that the nature of this "timey wimey" war removed some elements from DWU. DWU elements such as the [[Celestis]] are a big part in the FPU and they as explained in [[PROSE]]: [[Alien Bodies]] as the [[Celestial Intervention Agency]] removing themselves from the universe for self-preservation.

::No. Can't even ''pretend'' to go along with you.  It's not really about ''canon''.  For years we've been abusing that word.  It's about what we as a community will cover.  No one has a right to say what's canonical or not in the DW universe, because the copyright holders haven't really made such declarations.  But we do have a right, as a community, to say what the boundaries are on our wiki.  Your notion that "if it doesn't contradict, it counts" simply isn't enforceable.  There are ''thousands'' of pieces of fan fiction which fit that description.  And we're '''absolutely''' not going to start covering fan fiction.  "Non-official" means "fan fiction".  And there are other wikis for that.  We must draw a line in the sand and say that if it doesn't legally exploit a copyright, it's not something we cover.  Otherwise, we have no firm definition of what we cover.  {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}}'''18:57:41 Wed&nbsp;'''25 May 2011&nbsp;</span>

*[[P.R.O.B.E. (series)|P.R.O.B.E.]]

:So there we go.  Pretty comprehensive statement of the legal picture.  P.R.O.B.E. is therefore something we definitely cover.  {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}}18:08: Thu&nbsp;19 Jan 2012&nbsp;</span>

::So let's just let this one be guilty until proven innocent, okay?  {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}}19:40: Thu&nbsp;19 Jan 2012&nbsp;</span>

:::As for [[Faction Paradox (series)]], I still think it's got a perfectly good wiki of its own, to which we link on our main page.  We don't need to cover it.  We need to create ample links to '''the wiki that covers it'''.  We're including it only because of the ''subtext''.  We, as long time ''Doctor Who'' readers, are meant to know that this character is the Doctor, that character is Susan, that planet is Gallifrey, etc.  But in terms of its ''actual'' text, it's not got a single thing to do with the ''Doctor Who'' universe.  It'll just be so much easier to administer the wiki if we don't have to deal with "facts" from FP.  Even those users who know FP, like Revan, are tempted to sometimes cross the line and insinuate that the FPU has something to do with the DWU.  Which it actually doesn't.  If someone who didn't know DW read a Faction Paradox novel, they'd have no clue it was making veiled references to the DWU.  I just think it's dangerous o use FP material, save that which appears in the EDAs, on this wiki.  Because when an FPU novel/short story references London, for instance, they're not talking about the London which is in the DWU.  They're talking about a totally different one.  And it's not even a BBC-authorised alternate London, like in ''[[Rise of the Cybermen]]'' or even [[NOTVALID]]: ''[[Exile]]''.  It's a London like the one in ''Blakes 7'' or ''Tripods'' or something.  It's very hard to adequately convey that you're talking about an alternate London every time you use the FP prefix.  Most users just don't bother.  They bung in the FP reference and leave it at that, implying that FP stories take place in the DWU.  Which, again, they don't.  

:::I think we're doing our readers a great disservice by mixing FPU info in with DWU info.  FP is just not an equivalent source to an MA or a PDA or a TW story.  It's so far down the food chain '''it's in a completely different universe.'''  We should abolish the prefix, outlaw the FP series, and concentrate on linking to the FP wiki more. {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}}20:47: Thu&nbsp;19 Jan 2012&nbsp;</span>

::::I've not heard ''The Killing Stone'', but read about it, and it seems to have the same feel to it as ''Campaign'', heavy continuity references and a non-book.

:Nope, that won't work with the FPU, because they're two different ideas about the same concept.  Things happen to, for instance, the London of the FPU that ''don't'' happen to the London of the DWU.  It's a different universe.  And I don't think a ''general'' crossover policy is possible/desirable.  This ST:TNG is the ''first'' time we've had an official crossover.  FP is not a crossover; it's a ''totally different'' universe that derives from rights held by an author who once wrote in the DWU.  It's confusing to us, because FP is a concept that exists in the DWU, but all of the FP-only books exist in ''explicit'' contradiction to events that occurred in BBC licensed fiction.  {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}}15:22: Mon&nbsp;20 Feb 2012&nbsp;</span>

::Returning for the moment to ''The Killing Stone'', I think we can now feel better about having deleted it. In ''Radio Free Skaro'' #297, at the 55'00" mark, [[Richard Franklin]] helpfully begins to talk about ''The Killing Stone'', because he's releasing the full version of ''The Killing Stone'' later this year, called ''Operation: Hate (The Truth about The Killing Stone)''.  (The audio was an abridged version of the novel text, which was originally a failed submission to BBC Books.) This new version includes the ''whole'' of the original text, but then adds, according to him, "50% more".  He says:{{quote|Actually all of the names have had to be changed, because the BBC copyright situation now is rather tougher than it was when I did ''The Killing Stone''|Richard Franklin}}  So that's game set 'n' match to me.  The BBC have specifically disallowed ''The Killing Stone''. {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}}15:22: Mon&nbsp;20 Feb 2012&nbsp;</span>

::::However, it's not a crossover at all, in any sort of business sense.  The Doctor was always a part of the Marvel Universe, from the moment Marvel acquired the license.  They were just mixing and matching Marvel UK characters.  Many comic scholars postulate the existence of a single entity called the "Marvel UK universe" — which I'm sure today has a numerical designation in the way that Marvel like to number their universes — to which the Seventh Doctor and DH mutually belong.  Thus, if they are part of the same universe, there really is no basis for the term "crossover".  You can't crossover if you're part of the same universe! {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}}01:39: Fri&nbsp;24 Feb 2012&nbsp;</span>

I think what this discussion has demonstrated is that there is a basic philosophic difference between the two sides of this argument.  One wishes to include everything that possibly can be included but reluctantly concedes that some things don't make any sense and then works really really hard to retcon any inconsistencies.  The other wishes to have severely marked boundaries and he issue of retconning is not so difficult -- we're quite willing to attribute it to sloppiness. I come down on the latter side and can cite principles like Occam's Razor in support -- it requires fewer assumptions -- but really, it's a matter of simple taste;  in my case, it's a taste for laziness. However, at least I don't have to tie myself in knots like the recent argument about the sequel to [[A Fix with Sontarans]] and Czechout's elegant cutting of the Gordian knot.

:The testament to the fact that this thread has produced results is the number of redlinks now present on the list of stories.  When this thread started — over a year ago! — they were all blue.  {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}}01:41: Sat&nbsp;25 Feb 2012&nbsp;</span>

 

We still need to resolve what we're going to do about Faction Paradox.  I still, obviously, favor removing references from everything that's not the BBC "official" version of events with FP.  Which would mean that all the BBV FP would have to go to [[w:c:factionparodox]]. {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}}00:10: Sun&nbsp;04 Mar 2012&nbsp;</span>

 

 

== Killing Zone continued ==

Okay, so I asked one of my friends on YouTube to post his copy of [[The Killing Zone]] disk 2, as I recall someone had mentioned that it may retain copyright info... <!--The link can be found [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acrHW8SbZCc here]-->. [Link removed as it's a violation of [[T:VID LINK]]. {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}}21:42: Thu&nbsp;15 Mar 2012&nbsp;</span> ] [[User:OttselSpy25|OS25]] ([[User Talk:OttselSpy25|talk to me, baby.]]) 15:58, March 15, 2012 (UTC)

:Later information is deemed superior.  ''The Killing Zone'' is not something we cover.  Matter is closed. {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}}21:42: Thu&nbsp;15 Mar 2012&nbsp;</span>