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| == 22 APRIL 2011 == | | == Revisiting the split pages decision == |
| | Almost ten years ago, [[Forum:River Song incarnations or full page?|it was decided]] that River incarnations were to be all merged under a single page. However, more recent decision led me to propose we split the River pages again into new incarnations. They are as follow: |
| | * Put simply, [[River Song]] is a name that applies '''only''' to her third incarnation. It's as wrong to call the baby Amy gave birth to, or the young girl that was Amy and Rory's childhood friend "River Song" than it would be to call the incarnation of the Doctor who fought in the Time War by "Twelfth Doctor", "the Curator" or "War Curator", even though these are all names used by future versions of him. In fact, this was one of the reasons I argued so hard that [[the Eleven]]'s incarnations absolutely ''could not'' have a single page a few years ago. The same surely applies to River. |
| | * As has been done with several Time Lords recently, splitting their incarnations into a single page allows better coverage ''and'' readability. |
| | * Naming the majority of pages regarding this character would be extremely easy (something which was argued otherwise in the original discussion). It's very explicit that River/Melody had three incarnations: |
| | ** From birth to the [[User:OncomingStorm12th/Little girl (The Impossible Astronaut)|little girl]] from ''The Impossible Astronaut'' we see regenerating on the streets of New York |
| | ** [[User:OncomingStorm12th/Mels Zucker|Mels Zucker]], who grew up alongside her parents |
| | ** [[User:OncomingStorm12th/River Song|River Song]] her third and final incarnation |
| | * Now, that only leaves the problem of whether to use "Melody Pond" to her first incarnation or the overall page. As Mels also uses the name on her deathbed, and River Song also uses her real name on [[A Good Man Goes to War (TV story)]] to reveal her true identity, I'd vote for keeping [[Melody Pond]] for [[User:OncomingStorm12th/Melody Pond|the overall page]], while using "little girl" for the first incarnation (as she was credited as such). |
| | * Mind you, it wouldn't be the first time we use credits/conjectural names for a Time Lord splitting, as per [[Renegade Time Lord (The Eleven)]]. And, like that page, the bad term also happens to describe the exact subject we're talking about, as River/Melody was also ''the'' Impossible Astronaut. |
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| This section is a bit confusing. The alternative timeline for this date is mentioned first ("22 APRIL 2011") and then, in the "SILENCE IN AMERICA", there is another description of the events occurring with this date and the Doctor's death. I'm not sure how best to describe two different versions of what happened on this particular day at Lake Silencio but I think they should be closer together, in adjacent paragraphs. And then, at the end of the article, the section "ALTERNATE TIMELINE" repeats the version of events of "22 APRIL 2011".
| | As always, feel free to make any further suggestions and/or edit my sandbox pages. [[User:OncomingStorm12th|OncomingStorm12th]] [[User talk:OncomingStorm12th|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 16:52, 26 July 2021 (UTC) |
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| Also, following these sections is "THE OPENING OF THE PANDORICA" when, in the Doctor's timeline, this event occurs before the events at Lake Silencio which is described earlier. [[User:Badwolff|Badwolff]] [[User talk:Badwolff|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 22:24, May 31, 2013 (UTC)
| | : I am in support of this split. I agree that [[Melody Pond]] should go to [[User:OncomingStorm12th/Melody Pond|the overall page]] as it was used by all incarnations to a degree. [[User:Bongolium500|Bongo50 (aka Bongolium500)]] [[User talk:Bongolium500|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 18:52, 28 July 2021 (UTC) |
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| : Umm, no? Why should it? It's like this because this the order this happened to River. She "kills" the Doctor, then her older self sees herself at the lakeside "killing" the Doctor while she stops Amy and Rory from interfering, and then she sees the Pandorica open. ''The Wedding of River Song'' even outright says that the River that isn't inside the astronaut suit is from the future relative to the one that is. -- [[User:Tybort|Tybort]] ([[User talk:Tybort|talk page]]) 22:35, May 31, 2013 (UTC) | | :: I don't have a problem with the split, and I agree that Melody Pond would be best for the overall page name. [[User:LauraBatham|LauraBatham]] [[User talk:LauraBatham|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 07:47, 29 July 2021 (UTC) |
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| :: Umm, then why is the alternative timeline presented both at the beginning and at the end of the article? [[User:Badwolff|Badwolff]] [[User talk:Badwolff|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 22:42, May 31, 2013 (UTC) | | ::: I also think this is a good idea, but why not use Melody Pond for both the main page ''and'' her first incarnation? "Little girl" will have to be dabbed anyway, so why not use [[Melody Pond (The Impossible Astronaut)]] instead? [[User:Danochy|Danochy]] [[User talk:Danochy|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 12:39, 29 July 2021 (UTC) |
| | :::: I think 'Little Girl' is better for the incarnations navigation template. It accords both with the credits of the episode, with dialogue to an extent (the characters do call her "the Little Girl" for lack of a better term at some points in the script of ''[[The Impossible Astronaut (TV story)|The Impossible Astronaut]]''/''[[Day of the Moon (TV story)|Day of the Moon]]''), ''and'' with how non-Wiki-editing fans would usually speak of her if discussing River's incarnations. [[User:Scrooge MacDuck|Scrooge MacDuck]] [[User talk:Scrooge MacDuck|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 12:50, 29 July 2021 (UTC) |
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| :: I wasn't really referring to the alternate timeline section when I said that. Just how River's life was ordered. I do see that alternate timeline does indeed repeat 22 April 2011 at least in part though. -- [[User:Tybort|Tybort]] ([[User talk:Tybort|talk page]]) 22:49, May 31, 2013 (UTC) | | ::::: With the template, sure, but [[:Template:Rassilons|templates needn't use just page names]]. The name "Melody Pond" is more accurate than "little girl" in that regard, especially in light of her other appearance (albeit as a [[The Flesh|Flesh]] clone for most(?) of her on-screen time) where her identity as Melody is quite important. Also I just realised that her first appearance is actually [[Prequel (The Impossible Astronaut)]] which rather throws a spanner in the works for that dabbing. [[User:Danochy|Danochy]] [[User talk:Danochy|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 13:05, 29 July 2021 (UTC) |
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| == Aliases ==
| | : When I was thinking on how to title the first incarnation page, I cycled through <nowiki>[[Little girl (The Impossible Astronaut)]], [[Melody Pond (The Impossible Astronaut)]] and [[Melody Pond's first incarnation]]</nowiki>, but went with the former because it was the only one of these to already exist. In all honesty, I'm happy with either options. |
| Why have Mels and Melody Malone been removed from River's aliases? I can perhaps see why "Mels" is gone, since it's a nickname of Melody (and this wiki doesn't recognize the sources regarding "Zucker"), but there is an entire book where she goes by the alias Melody Malone for months while running the Angels Detective Agency in 1930s New York. It's not just a nickname or something she titled her in-universe book, she used it as an actual alias. [[User:Mewiet|Mewiet]] [[User talk:Mewiet|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 23:33, September 27, 2013 (UTC)
| | : As for the technicality of [[Prequel (The Impossible Astronaut)]].... yeah, it's not optimal. Using DPL, the only match for a page dabbed with a prequel is [[Silent (Prequel to The Impossible Astronaut)|Silent (Prequel (The Impossible Astronaut))]], so we ''could'' go with <nowiki>[[Little girl (Prequel (The Impossible Astronaut))]] or [[Melody Pond (Prequel (The Impossible Astronaut))]]</nowiki>, but I half-think we "overlook" this mistake, in order to achieve a simpler dab and avoid the double parenthesis. [[User:OncomingStorm12th|OncomingStorm12th]] [[User talk:OncomingStorm12th|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 22:20, 29 July 2021 (UTC) |
| :Can you provide the name of the book where this happens? Thanks. [[User:Shambala108|Shambala108]] [[User talk:Shambala108|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 00:20, September 28, 2013 (UTC)
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| ::''[[The Angel's Kiss: A Melody Malone Mystery]]''. This is the only name she uses for herself in this book and instructs others to refer to her as it as well, even though she admits to the first Rock Railton copy that Malone isn't really her last name (and jokes that whether Melody is her first is complicated, but never offers him an alternative). There are several quotes I can provide if you need them. [[User:Mewiet|Mewiet]] [[User talk:Mewiet|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 16:10, September 29, 2013 (UTC)
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| :::No need for quotes, I checked the page and it seems reasonable as '''an''' alias. However, I checked the page history, and Melody Malone was removed, along with several other so-called aliases, by [[User:CzechOut]]. I think his reasoning was that Melody Pond is the '''"main"''' alias, as the infobox states, and that maybe he doesn't see Melody Malone as a main enough alias to qualify for the infobox. We'll probably want to get his input on whether this particular one can be added back. [[User:Shambala108|Shambala108]] [[User talk:Shambala108|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 16:33, September 29, 2013 (UTC)
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| ::::Thanks for looking into this with me. The main infobox says "main alias'''es'''", hence my confusion. Since it was plural I figured it wasn't restricted to a single or topmost alias, but the most prominent aliases, if there should be more than one. I checked other pages for comparison (to see if they had been restricted to one as well) and noticed the Sarah Jane Smith page still lists multiple aliases under "main aliases," for example. (Granted, I'm not sure how prominently she used all of those aliases since I'm not nearly as familiar with her history in Classic Who and non-SJA TV spinoff media.) So that's why I was wondering why River's page had been restricted to only one alias. Since she's not referred to as anything other than Melody Malone for the entirety of a valid prose source, I feel like that one should qualify as a main alias. [[User:Mewiet|Mewiet]] [[User talk:Mewiet|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 18:30, September 29, 2013 (UTC)
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| :::::Well, first of all I wouldn't use other infoboxes as guides. The alias section of infoboxes is one of the most misused sections of the wiki. And the plural alias'''es''' allows for more than one, but doesn't require more than one.
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| :::::So the main issue we have here is just how important/prominent/main the Melody Malone alias is. If it's only in one story, then it's pretty questionable, but I can ask [[User:CzechOut|Czechout]] what he thinks, since he's the one who removed it. I'll look into it and let you know. [[User:Shambala108|Shambala108]] [[User talk:Shambala108|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 18:43, September 29, 2013 (UTC)
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| ::::::Okay, I didn't realize that about the infoboxes. I'll note that for future reference. (Or lack thereof, so to speak.) I really appreciate your help. Sometimes it seems like questions on the talk pages don't get noticed, so thank you! [[User:Mewiet|Mewiet]] [[User talk:Mewiet|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 18:48, September 29, 2013 (UTC)
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| == Winter Frost Fair == | | :: Of course [[Melody Pond's first incarnation]] is a good option if we want to avoid the dabbing dilemma. But otherwise I'm also happy to overlook the prequel or to otherwise consider it a ''part'' of the TV story for the purposes of dabbing the character. [[User:Danochy|Danochy]] [[User talk:Danochy|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 23:08, 29 July 2021 (UTC) |
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| According to the section "Return to Demons' Run", River went to the Frost Fair for her birthday with a Doctor. It happened after the battle of the Demons' Run, from her point of view, and before ''The Angels Take Manhattan'', because she's still in jail, but have we got other information to put the event in that particular section, other than in "Undated events"? [[User:HarveyWallbanger|HarveyWallbanger]] [[User talk:HarveyWallbanger|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 15:02, December 15, 2013 (UTC)
| | ::: Okay, hold the phone, where exactly did we get [[Prequel (The Impossible Astronaut)]] from ''anyway''? On the BBC website this is called [https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00fxf06 ''The Prequel to Episode 1'']. That title's not going to win any awards, but we do have precedents for using such "functional" titles like we would normal titles, such as ''[[The Novel of the Film (novelisation)|The Novel of the Film]]'', so… why don't we call this thing [[The Prequel to Episode 1 (webcast)]]? Granted I'm not ''thrilled'' about the prospect of [[Little girl (The Prequel to Episode 1)]] but it wouldn't have any double-parentheses. |
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| == Selfish? ==
| | ::: But… We also need to discuss the option of [[the Little Girl]]. There are other "little girls" in the DWU, but she ''is'' the only one whom the Doctor & friends referred to, for several months, over the course of ''[[The Impossible Astronaut (TV story)|The Impossible Astronaut]]''/''[[Day of the Moon (TV story)|Day of the Moon]]'', as ''the'' Little Girl. Interestingly, the adult River Song herself uses "the Little Girl" several times in dialogue in ''[[Day of the Moon (TV story)|Day of the Moon]]'', which is interesting if we want to talk self-identification… |
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| The sentence " River was rather selfish since she was willing to sacrifice the entire Universe in order to protect the Doctor." seems rather problematic. She was trying to save both the Universe and the Doctor. Concerning how many times the doctor has saved the Universe, the Doctor's death is itself a threat to the Universe. [[User:Emmette Hernandez Coleman|Emmette Hernandez Coleman]] [[User talk:Emmette Hernandez Coleman|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 14:07, March 26, 2014 (UTC) | | ::: Now granted, "The Little Girl" isn't intended to be, or presented as, a "the" name in quite the same way as "The Doctor" or even "[[The Editor]] — but I would point to [[The Woman (Hell Bent)]] and [[The Woman (The End of Time)]] as precedents for using the credited "the Something" descriptor as a page name even though it's unlikely the characters would introduce themselves with "Hello, I'm usually referred to as the Woman". Also, the way we titled our page about [[Tzim-Sha]] "[[Tim Shaw]]" for quite some time, for as long as we lacked certainty on the spelling of "Tzim-Sha", is precedent for the idea that when the other potential names are unviable,- we do sometimes use the name Team TARDIS give an entity, even if we have reason to suspect the entity called itself something else. [[User:Scrooge MacDuck|Scrooge MacDuck]] [[User talk:Scrooge MacDuck|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 23:26, 29 July 2021 (UTC) |
| :You're right, it's a violation of [[Tardis:Neutral point of view]]. Feel free to remove it, or I can get to it later. [[User:Shambala108|Shambala108]] [[User talk:Shambala108|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 14:24, March 26, 2014 (UTC)
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| == Added one word to intro ==
| | :::: I would much rather the prequel name stay as it is, to be honest, and just bend the first appearance dabbing rule (if we were to go down that road). There are a lot of "episode 1"s, making the searchability pretty poor. Though we could always name it "Prequel to The Impossible Astronaut", such as it is on imdb. [[User:LauraBatham|LauraBatham]] [[User talk:LauraBatham|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 02:07, 30 July 2021 (UTC) |
| I changed the wording of the introduction slightly to read "third known incarnation." Upon reviewing the episodes we do not know for certain that the "astronaut child" incarnation was the first incarnation of River. We do not know that she regenerated into the Mels incarnation. The only direct link we know is from Mels to River. At no point is River referred to as a third incarnation. There is plenty of wiggle room for another incarnation of Melody to exist. For example (and this is pure speculation) we don't know that Kovarian didn't invoke a regeneration in Melody early on to confirm that she could regenerate. [[Special:Contributions/68.146.52.234|68.146.52.234]]<sup>[[User talk:68.146.52.234#top|talk to me]]</sup> 15:08, May 27, 2014 (UTC) | |
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| : I definitely agree with the idea of what you say, but the wording still needs to be tweaked. From the [[Tardis:In-universe perspective|in-universe perspective]], we can't really call something "unknown" or "unnamed", because in the majority of cases, someone in the DWU will know the information. In other words, we can't write as if it's from our perspective, but rather from those of the DWU. To make a messy comment more clear, I'll use your example. It's highly likely that Kovarian would know how many incarnations of River there are, so saying River is the "third known" contradicts the fact that someone else '''does''' know. And in fact, River probably knows how many incarnations she has had. | | ::::: I think that the Prequel(s) current name(s) just come from a lack of title cards, and if they're Prequels to release X, instinctively they're titled <nowiki>[[Prequel (release X)]]</nowiki> (that's certainly what I did when creating a few of the recent Big Finish ones) |
| | ::::: Now, as for using The Little Girl as a title... well, as you pointed you it could work, as precedent exists, but I think that works well enough '''''in the lack of any other names'''''. Like, if it was a random unnamed Time Lord Little Girl we saw regenerating, and then later in a spacesuit etc, I'd 100% agree with you. But as soon as we learn that Little Girl is actually Melody Pond/River as a little girl (sans capital letters), I personally think the argument looses strength a bit. Right now, I'm leaning either for [[Little girl (The Impossible Astronaut)]] (no capital letters), or [[Melody Pond's first incarnation]], to circumvent the dabbing issues. [[User:OncomingStorm12th|OncomingStorm12th]] [[User talk:OncomingStorm12th|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 02:23, 30 July 2021 (UTC) |
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| :I hope this is clear. It's clear in my head but not so easy to put into words. At any rate, I agree that we have no guarantee that River is the third (unless someone can provide a [[Tardis:Valid sources|valid source]]), but we need to change the wording. [[User:Shambala108|Shambala108]] [[User talk:Shambala108|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 15:28, May 27, 2014 (UTC) | | :::::: Well not ''this'' is a coincidence if I ever saw one. Big Finish has recently released a webcast (''[[The Story of the Diary of River Song (webcast)|The Story of the Diary of River Song]]'') which recaps a lot of River's adventures and her timeline and, little do we know, they mention both of their previous incarnations. Aside from referring the River by her birth name of Melody Pond, River herself calls her second incarnation [[Mels Zucker]] (the full name), while her first incarnation is called (guess what) [[Little girl (The Impossible Astronaut)|little girl]]. |
| | :::::: Now, I'll not give any rulings, given I was the one to start the discussion, but this serves as a quite nice food for thought, and a bump in the talk page as well. [[User:OncomingStorm12th|OncomingStorm12th]] [[User talk:OncomingStorm12th|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 16:41, 3 August 2021 (UTC) |
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| == Major changes to the chronology ==
| | ::: I now notice that a few days ago, [[User:SOTO]] standardised prequel naming via bot, so now we have [[Prequel to The Impossible Astronaut (webcast)]] instead of the clunky [[Prequel (The Impossible Astronaut]]. That means that we can now safely and unambiguously have the "First Melody" at [[Melody Pond (Prequel to The Impossible Astronaut)]], and more generally: |
| | * [[Melody Pond]] |
| | ** [[Melody Pond (Prequel to The Impossible Astronaut)]] |
| | ** [[Mels Zucker]] |
| | ** [[River Song]] |
| | ::: Is this approach agreeable for everyone? [[User:OncomingStorm12th|OncomingStorm12th]] [[User talk:OncomingStorm12th|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 21:46, 13 October 2021 (UTC) |
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| A pair of details in the chronological order of River's biography are not proper, to me.
| | :::: I'm fine with that. [[User:LauraBatham|LauraBatham]] [[User talk:LauraBatham|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 21:52, 13 October 2021 (UTC) |
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| * The "Easter Island" and "Jim the Fish" adventures are *dated*: they happen
| | ::::: Agreed. I think we can move forward with this. <span style="color: #baa3d6;font-family:Comic Sans;">[[User:Scrooge MacDuck|'''Scrooge MacDuck''']]</span> <span style="color: #baa3d6;">[[User_talk:Scrooge MacDuck|⊕]]</span> 10:23, 14 October 2021 (UTC) |
| ** after ''First Night'', when the Doctor explains to her how to use the diary
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| ** before ''The Impossible Astronaut'', when River talks about them
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| ::So they should go in the "Imprisonment" subsection.
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| * The two pieces of information in the "Return to the Battle of Demon's Run" section are *undated*. River visits Demon's Run:
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| ** after ''First Night'' (she has a vortex manipulator and she has visited the TARDIS, since she knows the Doctor's cot)
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| ** before the "birthday with Stevie Wonder" ->
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| *** The birthday was:
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| **** after Demons' Run
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| **** after the "Silence in America", or after the Pandorica (as suggested in [http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Theory:Timeline_-_River_Song your timeline]): unless she's lying, she acknowledges she's already met her father before he knew her identity. (If she was lying, it's even worse: it's just after Demon's Run).
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| **** before ''Angels in Manhattan'', since she's in jail.
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| ::So it's a fuzzy range of time: in the best case after "Silence in America" e before "A pardoned woman" (no indications about the Eternity Clock and the Byzantium), in the worst case between ''First Night'' (in "Imprisonment") and "A pardoned woman". They should go in the Undated events...
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| ... unless I am missing something, and with River Song it is easy. That's why I am writing here! --[[User:HarveyWallbanger|HarveyWallbanger]] [[User talk:HarveyWallbanger|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 23:25, October 5, 2014 (UTC)
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| == Appearing again ==
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| Does anyone know if she's ever going to appear again??? It was indicated that she only traveled with the 11th Doctor and has never been mentioned by the 12th Doctor. That final scene in Name of (how did she even appear psychically if she was just a computer program anyway???) felt like a final goodbye to her character but I can't find anything saying either way. I mean they COULD still bring her back as one of her past selves before her death but does anyone know if they're going to do that or not???--[[User:WarGrowlmon18|WarGrowlmon18]] [[User talk:WarGrowlmon18|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 21:13, July 19, 2015 (UTC)
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| :Whether or not she ever appears again, per [[Tardis:Spoiler policy]], on this wiki we do not discuss anything about upcoming episodes. [[User:Shambala108|Shambala108]] [[User talk:Shambala108|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 01:28, July 20, 2015 (UTC)
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| == Soooo... ==
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| How long until someone locks down this page? lol [[User:OttselSpy25|OS25]] ([[User Talk:OttselSpy25|talk to me, baby.]]) 14:35, September 2, 2015 (UTC)
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| ==River's Sexuality==
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| In Husbands of River Song, she was revealed to have had (at least) two wives, so please stop removing that fact from the page.
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| She is bisexual, and I'm pretty sure Steven Moffat (or one of the writers) has said this in the interview.
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| I'm bisexual, I really hate seeing this ignored because I was really happy to learn she was like me in terms of sexuality.
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| [[Special:Contributions/71.163.147.18|71.163.147.18]]<sup>[[User talk:71.163.147.18#top|talk to me]]</sup> 21:19, January 1, 2016 (UTC)
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| ==River's appearance in [[Journey's End]]==
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| For some reason, although I've tried adding her appearance in Journey's End, somebody always removes it. I feel like (although her appearance was only in a flashback when [[Davros]] was asking the [[Doctor]] how many people had died in his name) this still counts as an appearance. Others who appeared in the same flashback, such as [[Chantho]], [[Robert MacLeish]], [[Colin Skinner]] and [[Ursula Blake]], have had their appearance added to their list.
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| However, a great deal of other people, including [[Jabe]], [[Lynda Moss]], [[Astrid Peth]] and [[Luke Rattigan]], have not had it added to their list of appearances.
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| == Should "Professor" be part of the boldfaced lead and should River Song be put in quotations marks ==
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| [[User:Jack "BtR" Saxon|Jack "BtR" Saxon]] has added the title "Professor" to the boldfaced lead and has removed quotation marks around the alias River Song. I believe such decisions regarding such a central character should be taken after a proper discussion in the community. I am starting this discussion now.
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| Regarding featuring "Professor" at the beginning of an article, the Wiki has been inconsistent. Jack Saxon suggests two examples: [[Alistair Gordon Lethbridge-Stewart]] and [[John Benton]], both of which are not very telling: the Brig is such an exception, down to [[The Brigadier]] redirect, that it can hardly be a template for anything; [[John Benton]], on the other hand, has held a number of military ranks over his career and none of them is present at the beginning of his page. However, my own research shows that the honourific [[Professor]] has been used rather inconsistently. Here are three main trends:
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| * "'''Professor'''" at the beginning of the page (boldfaced): [[Winfold Hobbes]], [[Eric Stahlman]], [[George Litefoot]], [[Grisenko]], [[J. P. Kettlewell]], [[Celeste Rivers]], [[Joseph Rubeish|Rubeish]], [[Gerald Peach]], [[Stream]], [[Alistair Gryffen]], [[Aaron Copley]], [[Archibald Angelchrist]], [[Kellman]], [[Brett (The War Machines)|Brett]], [[Logan (Doctor Who and the Rocks from Venus)|Logan]], [[Peabody]], [[Jackij]], [[Kyle (Earthshock)|Kyle]], [[Charles Kettering]], [[Parsek]], [[Wilberforce]], [[Saurian (Extinction Event)|Saurian]], etc.;
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| * "Professor" at the beginning of the page (not boldfaced): [[Frederick Marius]], [[Richard Lazarus]], [[Clifford Jones]], [[Arthur Candy]], [[Zaroff]], [[Edward Travers]], [[Rachel Jensen]], [[Sarah Lasky]], [[Hayter]], [[Malcolm Taylor]], [[Watkins]], [[Wagg]], [[Parry]], [[Sondergaard]], [[Bernard Quatermass]], [[Herbert Clegg]], [[Daniel Eldred]], [[Webster (The Daleks' Master Plan)|Webster]], [[Patrick Trethui]], etc.;
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| * no "Professor" in any form at the beginning of the page for characters with professorial titles: [[Emile Moorhouse]], [[Albert Smithe]], [[Daniel Joyce]], etc.
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| Unfortunately, I am not familiar with many of these characters, but it is my suspicion that most of them are only known in DWU at the time they are professors.
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| River Song is an alias that was given to River at birth. On the other hand, she only got the professorial title rather late in her adventures. Out of her 15 full-TV-episode appearances, she has only been a professor in 5 (by my quick and dirty count). Plus 5 audio stories. (I am not qualified to estimate the comic and prose stories.)
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| I find three problems with the current edition of the lead:
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| # It is not stated that River Song is an alias.
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| # River Song is not put in quotation marks as is common for assumed names.
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| # The title Professor given in the lead is only present in roughly half the TV/audio stories. It seems wrong to introduce a character by a title that has nothing to do with half the stories about her and that is neither her primary nor her constant characteristic. [[User:Amorkuz|Amorkuz]] [[User talk:Amorkuz|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 13:32, May 11, 2016 (UTC)
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| A handful of River's husbands/spouses are already listed. Difficult to list them all as there are many. Should all the spouses of the Doctor be listed? he has many too.
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| == New image ==
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| <nowiki>[[File:RiverSongTHORSonDwith12.jpg|thumb|New image.]]</nowiki>
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| I'm proposing that this could be the new image for this page, I realize now that I have to ask here. [[User:HolmestoHomes|HolmestoHomes]] [[User talk:HolmestoHomes|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 19:25, January 13, 2017 (UTC)
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| p.s. I never said that the other image didn't suit the guidelines, I stated that this one did. [[User:HolmestoHomes|HolmestoHomes]] [[User talk:HolmestoHomes|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 19:27, January 13, 2017 (UTC)
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| : Too flat. Because of the tint used to fit the mood, it all becomes one colour. [[User:OttselSpy25|OS25]] ([[User Talk:OttselSpy25|Talk]]) 16:37, June 7, 2017 (UTC)
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| == "Spoilers" ==
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| I wonder whether it's really necessary for her to keep the Doctor in the dark about the future, or she does it mostly to tease him? Time paradoxes are different in nature: some are benign, while others are dangerous; what is the case there? --[[User:Jim Fruit|Jim Fruit]] [[User talk:Jim Fruit|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 16:25, June 7, 2017 (UTC)
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| == Time Lord or Proto-Time Lord? ==
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| In the latest Diary Of River Song Set, River refers to herself and her siblings as “Proto-Time Lords”. Should this be reflected in the info box as it’s a more specific and accurate description of her species, especially seeing as she’s also made it clear in Doom Coalition that she’s not a Time Lord in the same sense as the Doctor and the other characters from Gallifrey. [[User:SarahJaneFan|SarahJaneFan]] [[User talk:SarahJaneFan|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 21:53, January 25, 2018 (UTC)
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| :You could reference on the page that she says that, but I don't agree it would be okay to wholly replace "Time Lord" with "Proto-Time Lord" because in the same box set River also describes herself as "an embryonic Time Lord" and [[Lake (The Lady in the Lake)|Lily]] says, "We're Time Lords, [River] told me." Not to mention a specific plot point in ''[[A Good Man Goes to War (TV story)|A Good Man Goes to War]]'' is that River has "human plus Time Lord" DNA. Since we consider all valid sources equally valid, we can't say that the proto-Time Lord comment overrides all the other references to her being a Time Lord, including from the very same box set release. [[User:Mewiet|Mewiet]] [[User talk:Mewiet|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 05:13, January 26, 2018 (UTC)
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| == Infobox image ==
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| Just as the pages for [[the Doctor]], [[the Master]], [[the Eleven]], [[Borusa]], etc. have slideshows in their infoboxes showing their different incarnations, doesn't River deserve that too? -- [[User:Jack "BtR" Saxon|Saxon]] ([[User talk:Jack "BtR" Saxon|✉️]]) 14:51, February 3, 2020 (UTC)
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| == Infobox changes needed. ==
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| The sibling category only allows ten siblings to be added. Could this be changed by an admin? River has an eleventh sibling [[O (The Furies)|O]] who cannot fit in her infobox. [[User:Xx-connor-xX|Xx-connor-xX]] [[User talk:Xx-connor-xX|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 22:46, April 4, 2020 (UTC)
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| == River remembered "The Year That Never Was"? == | |
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| Firstly to make it clear this isn't me proposing she remembered it, she's already been placed in [https://tardis.fandom.com/wiki/Category:Individuals_who_remembered_the_Year_That_Never_Was this category] for some reason but I am rather doubtful of this. Is there some media stating this as fact? Currently there's no reference to it in her page as far as I can tell either, other than that she's been lumped into that category. [[User:QisMyName|QisMyName]] [[User talk:QisMyName|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 17:25, April 29, 2020 (UTC)
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| :I was the one who added her to the category as she visited [[Jack Harkness]] on the [[Valiant (aircraft carrier)|Valiant]] in [[R&J (audio story)]] and was later shown to have memory of this. [[User:Xx-connor-xX|Xx-connor-xX]] [[User talk:Xx-connor-xX|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 18:39, April 29, 2020 (UTC)
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| :: When in the story is River aboard the ''Valiant''? I didn't catch that.{{User:SOTO/sig}} 07:35, April 30, 2020 (UTC)
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| == Human vs Proto-Time Lord ==
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| In contrast with the discussion two years ago, as to whether she would be listed as both a "Proto-Time Lord" and a "Time Lord" or ''just'' a "Time Lord", a discussion has emerged over whether she should be listed as human as well as Proto-Time Lord. Three users were originally involved in this, but stopped before it became an edit war. The reasoning given is as follows:
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| :added "human" to species. as stated in 'A Good Man Goes to War' she is Human + Time Lord
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| :Proto-Time Lords are human, just with Time Lord qualities
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| :The Proto-Time Lord has no reference to them being human at all - just a humanoid species category
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| :This is most confusing; how can she be both human and a human descended species? Surely it is one or the other, not both
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| :she is said to be human + time lord in 'A Good Man Goes to War'. why is that any less valid than the big finish explanation that she is Proto-Time Lord (which never said anything about being of human descent)
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| I then came back to this discussion after thinking about it two weeks later and reverted back to not having the human species listed. My reasoning was the following.
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| :After thinking about this more, this is the right call, look at the [[Posthuman]] article, notable individuals, their species tags for precedence. Proto-Time Lord implies human(or at least homo genus). No need to have it twice.
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| It was then reverted with no reasoning. It's been three weeks since then, so I'm sure everyone is coming to this with a reasonable distance from the original events and the second round of events, so I'm starting an actual discussion about the topic. Should we treat "Proto-Time Lord" as implying "human" or do we add the human tag separately? I note for this discussion, as well as the arguments made prior, that the "Time Lord or Proto-Time Lord?" discussion was never resolved, but her species has been listed exclusively as "Proto-Time Lord" (+Data Ghost) since last February, when [[User:BananaClownMan]] did a multi day cleanup on the page. [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 06:01, July 9, 2020 (UTC)
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| : there was a large discussion about this on my talkpage so i would appreciate you not to keep accusing people of doing it without reason (when in doubt, ask!).
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| : you say that "human" and "proto-time lord" go hand-in-hand like "posthuman", but that is not true in the slightest. there's nothing to suggest that only humans can be proto-time lords and therefore being part human needs specifying. [[User:DiSoRiEnTeD1|DiSoRiEnTeD1]] [[User talk:DiSoRiEnTeD1|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 07:41, July 11, 2020 (UTC)
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| ::Er. Subtle miscommunication, I said "It was then reverted with no reasoning" - as in, my edit was reverted and no reasoning was given. Not that there was no reason for them to revert it. Ostensibly I assume that every user of this wiki has a reason for the edits they make. And certainly the user could have already agreed with the reasons given in the prior exchange or [[User talk:DiSoRiEnTeD1|your talk page]] (which I note for readers of this thread did not end in consensus but in "I'll have to listen to the audios again"). But the edit was simply a blank revert, is what I meant.
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| ::Now, as for the idea that "there's nothing to suggest that only humans can be proto-time lords", I direct you to [[Proto-Time Lord]]. They are all explicitly human descended beings. That is, as far as the wiki is concerned, part of ''the definition'' of the term (or to be technical, it's a consequence of the definition, in that the definition is River+clones of River). If that changes in the future, and we have beings in the future described as "Proto-Time Lords" because they can regenerate, we can modify her infobox. Though I note we have precedence for characters being able to regenerate and not being described in this way, see [[Regen-inf]] and [[The Witch's Familiar (TV story)|The Witch's Familiar]]. [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 07:57, July 11, 2020 (UTC)
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| : the argument ‘’’against’’’ the change you made had already been made in several of the earlier edit summaries, the situation was extremely close to an edit war and your edit was (unintentionally I’m sure) adding to that. I can only assume that is why your edit was reverted by an admin.
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| : however, there is nothing to suggest that only humans can be Proto-time lords. that would be like saying that only humans could be time agents if we don’t know any non-human time agents (hopefully we don’t or that would be a poor example). [[User:DiSoRiEnTeD1|DiSoRiEnTeD1]] [[User talk:DiSoRiEnTeD1|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 11:32, July 11, 2020 (UTC)
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| ::As I said, "the user could have already agreed with the reasons given in the prior exchange [...] But the edit was simply a blank revert". And no, my contribution could not have possibly added to an "edit war situation". Edit wars occur when specific users do something over short periods of time. I was a new user who came to this after thinking about it for two weeks. Regardless, I'm not here to litigate the merits of the revert. I merely was explaining the context of the edit summaries for people reading this, and since there was miscommunication I had to explain.
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| ::As for the Time Agent example, I direct you to [[Time Agency]]. It is, indeed, the policy of this wiki that all Time Agents are human. So thank you for an example that proves my point, the wiki is pretty famous for not allowing us to talk about things past what is found in stories. See how in thread [[Thread:272817]] we're discussing things based on this fact. [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 19:15, July 11, 2020 (UTC)
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| : nowhere does it say the time agency only employs human agents. [[User:DiSoRiEnTeD1|DiSoRiEnTeD1]] [[User talk:DiSoRiEnTeD1|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 21:38, July 11, 2020 (UTC)
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| ::"The Agency employed human Time Agents," - Explicitly specifying human. Until we're shown otherwise, all Time Agents are human. See also [[Tardis (The Zygon Isolation)]] for another article where the article does not say anything more than what is explicitly stated in the story in question. [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 21:45, July 11, 2020 (UTC)
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| ::: that is speculation. we can say that all members of [[LINDA]] were human, as we know all the members. we cannot say that the time agency *only* employs human time agents, as we do not know that. likewise, we cannot say that only humans can be proto-time lords when we do not know that as well. [[User:DiSoRiEnTeD1|DiSoRiEnTeD1]] [[User talk:DiSoRiEnTeD1|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 18:42, July 12, 2020 (UTC)
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| :::: No, you have the issue of speculation precisely backwards. For this wiki, we state ''only the things that are stated in stories''. That is to say, it has been stated that Proto-Time Lords are River + her clones. That is the definition of a Proto-Time Lord as far as this wiki is concerned. To think otherwise is what is speculation. (Let's note here that if we ever got another story using the term "Proto-Time Lord" we wouldn't need to use "according to one account" language, we'd just note that it refers to these other things as well. But according to the wiki as it currently stands, that's just not how things are.) [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 20:08, July 12, 2020 (UTC)
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| ::::: the story only said that they are proto-time lords, not that they are the '''only''' proto-time lords (or the '''only''' ones that could become proto-time lords). by your logic we have to consider that every individual that is the only known character from their species as the last of their kind, which is ridiculous. simple fact is - proto-time lords have never been stated to be only humans, and so human should remain in river's infobox to specify. [[User:DiSoRiEnTeD1|DiSoRiEnTeD1]] [[User talk:DiSoRiEnTeD1|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 21:35, July 12, 2020 (UTC)
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| This is an obvious misunderstanding of the issue. If an amusing one. The story does not need to say they're the only Proto-Time Lords, nor anything similar. Rather, it must provide us with a notion of a species without any indication of further existence elsewhere. Which is exactly what it does. Then, from the perspective of this wiki, they are treated as the last of their kind or a unique being. And, surprise, there's ample precedent for this. See [[House (The Doctor's Wife)]]. And there's also precedent for the sort of revision I'm saying would happen, of adding in new information as we get new information. The page [[Sentient star]] didn't exist before 2014, but at the same time the wiki covered [[Torajii]] but not [[Akhaten]] or [[Hyperion (species)]]. Torajii's own article was rewritten slightly to better accommodate the fact that it was not "the" sentient star, but "a" sentient star.
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| So again, this criticism, that "human should remain to specify" only makes sense if we presuppose that "Proto-Time Lord" means "has some Time Lord traits but not all of them". But for the wiki it explicitly does not. That is you speculating. [[Proto-Time Lord]] is categorized as a human descended species. If the term is used again in a way consistent with your interpretation, which, I grant, is a reasonable interpretation based on English, things should change. But until then the information is just redundant. [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 22:15, July 12, 2020 (UTC)
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| :sentient star should have always existed, regardless if there was only one.
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| :there is nothing to say that only humans can be proto-time lords, and regardless the "proto-time lords" is still one account. the other accounts say that she is human + time lord, and in the same story river and her siblings identify themselves as time-lords too. so technically all three should remain in her infobox, but i was willing to let "time lord" be replaced for "proto-time lord" but i am not willing to leave out "human". [[User:DiSoRiEnTeD1|DiSoRiEnTeD1]] [[User talk:DiSoRiEnTeD1|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 22:46, July 12, 2020 (UTC)
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| ::I don't specifically disagree it should have existed, this seems a confusion yet again. My point is that in the absence of [[Akhaten]], [[Torajii]] was treated by this wiki as the ''only'' sentient star, even if there wasn't a page for "sentient stars" specifically. It was only after we saw others that this was rectified. This is clear precedent for this issue. You can shout "there is nothing to say that only humans can be proto-time lords" until the cows come home, it's just not relevant to our discussion. Any understanding of "Proto-Time Lord" past what is listed in the story is speculation on your part. It's frustrating, I know, and I'm actually trying to get the policy changed to a limited extent (albeit, not as much as would be needed for this, the discussion began for something wholly unrelated), but to think that "Proto" means "primitive", and thus that "Proto-Time Lord" refers to someone with some of the properties of Time Lords but not all, falls under [[T:NO RW]].
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| ::Similarly, to say other accounts say she's "human + time lord" as a separate race is a simple misunderstanding of the episode. It's talking about how her DNA has changed due to exposure to the [[Time Vortex]] not that she's literally half human half Time Lord like [[Allisheer St Marx]]. This makes it analogous to [[Posthuman]]. [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 23:28, July 12, 2020 (UTC)
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| : how many times will you accuse me of misinterpreting, or making an "obvious misunderstanding", before you realise that it is simply just a different view to yours and i could say that you're the one misinterpreting. Madame Vastra directly says that she is "human + timelord", interpreting that to "posthuman" is completely wrong. [[User:DiSoRiEnTeD1|DiSoRiEnTeD1]] [[User talk:DiSoRiEnTeD1|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 23:49, July 12, 2020 (UTC)
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| ::I'd call this a misinterpretation of what I said, but in this case it's just ignoring what I said. I said it's ''analogous'' to the situation I laid out above with Posthuman. I did not say she is a member of Posthumanity. But let's look at the transcript of the episode, shall we?
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| :::Look closer. Human plus. Specifically, human plus Time Lord.
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| :::But she's human. '''She's Amy and Rory's daughter.''' [Emphasis mine to note this is not an [[Allisheer St Marx]] situation]
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| :::You've told me about your people. They became what they did through '''prolonged exposure to the time vortex. The Untempered Schism.''' [Emphasis again mine]
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| :::Over billions of years. It didn't just happen.
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| :::[...]
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| :::But could the child have '''begun on the Tardis in flight, in the vortex.''' [Emphasis once again mine]
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| :::[...]
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| :::So, technically the first time they were on the Tardis together in this version of reality, was on their w
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| :::On their what?
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| :::On their wedding night.
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| ::So no, not an issue of disagreement. The episode is quite clear. She is not literally both human and Time Lord, she is descended from two humans and has some similarities in her DNA to a Time Lord thanks to exposure to the Time Vortex. The episode was incredibly specific about this fact. [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 00:26, July 13, 2020 (UTC)
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| : so......... human should be in her infobox. great! [[User:DiSoRiEnTeD1|DiSoRiEnTeD1]] [[User talk:DiSoRiEnTeD1|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 00:34, July 13, 2020 (UTC)
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| ::No, the episode in question says "Human plus", a human descended species (namely, human with features similar to Time Lords). The Doctor rejects this idea because she's obviously not descended from a Time Lord, and then it's pointed out that the events that caused Time Lords to develop as they did were also applied to River. Making her, at the time of this episode, a unique, human descended species. This species was then given a name, [[Proto-Time Lord]]. No interpretation necessary. [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 00:52, July 13, 2020 (UTC)
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| : that's not true though, is it? if you have listened to the story, and i assume in good faith that you have, then you would know that river was genetically engineered into a proto-time lord by kovarian. she was not one at birth, or when these comments were made about her. so your connection between the two makes no sense to me. [[User:DiSoRiEnTeD1|DiSoRiEnTeD1]] [[User talk:DiSoRiEnTeD1|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 00:59, July 13, 2020 (UTC)
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| ::Well I did ignore the next part of the transcript:
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| :::It doesn't make sense. You can't just cook yourself a Time Lord.
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| :::Of course not. But you gave them one hell of a start, and they've been working very hard ever since.
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| ::Since I rather ''assumed'' we understood that these changes were accelerated (further strengthening the idea she's not strictly speaking human but is human descended). That would also be an assumption of good faith on my part, that we wouldn't be spending time on irrelevant details that don't change the meaning of our discussion. [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 01:18, July 13, 2020 (UTC)
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| ::: that reply added nothing to this conversation so i am struggling to respond. River was born human + time lord, and was genetically engineered into a proto-time lord. nothing about proto-time lords suggests that it is human only and therefore human should remain in the infobox. [[User:DiSoRiEnTeD1|DiSoRiEnTeD1]] [[User talk:DiSoRiEnTeD1|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 01:23, July 13, 2020 (UTC)
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