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== Revisiting the split pages decision ==
Almost ten years ago, [[Forum:River Song incarnations or full page?|it was decided]] that River incarnations were to be all merged under a single page. However, more recent decision led me to propose we split the River pages again into new incarnations. They are as follow:
* Put simply, [[River Song]] is a name that applies '''only''' to her third incarnation. It's as wrong to call the baby Amy gave birth to, or the young girl that was Amy and Rory's childhood friend "River Song" than it would be to call the incarnation of the Doctor who fought in the Time War by "Twelfth Doctor", "the Curator" or "War Curator", even though these are all names used by future versions of him. In fact, this was one of the reasons I argued so hard that [[the Eleven]]'s incarnations absolutely ''could not'' have a single page a few years ago. The same surely applies to River.
* As has been done with several Time Lords recently, splitting their incarnations into a single page allows better coverage ''and'' readability.
* Naming the majority of pages regarding this character would be extremely easy (something which was argued otherwise in the original discussion). It's very explicit that River/Melody had three incarnations:
** From birth to the [[User:OncomingStorm12th/Little girl (The Impossible Astronaut)|little girl]] from ''The Impossible Astronaut'' we see regenerating on the streets of New York
** [[User:OncomingStorm12th/Mels Zucker|Mels Zucker]], who grew up alongside her parents
** [[User:OncomingStorm12th/River Song|River Song]] her third and final incarnation
* Now, that only leaves the problem of whether to use "Melody Pond" to her first incarnation or the overall page. As Mels also uses the name on her deathbed, and River Song also uses her real name on [[A Good Man Goes to War (TV story)]] to reveal her true identity, I'd vote for keeping [[Melody Pond]] for [[User:OncomingStorm12th/Melody Pond|the overall page]], while using "little girl" for the first incarnation (as she was credited as such).
* Mind you, it wouldn't be the first time we use credits/conjectural names for a Time Lord splitting, as per [[Renegade Time Lord (The Eleven)]]. And, like that page, the bad term also happens to describe the exact subject we're talking about, as River/Melody was also ''the'' Impossible Astronaut.


The faces in River's diary have to be the past incarnations of the Doctor. The 8th Doctor said that Timelords have 13 lives, and that he was up to 8 (obviously). If we are at the 11th Doctor, we don't have too many more reincarnations to go :-(
As always, feel free to make any further suggestions and/or edit my sandbox pages. [[User:OncomingStorm12th|OncomingStorm12th]] [[User talk:OncomingStorm12th|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 16:52, 26 July 2021 (UTC)


: I am in support of this split. I agree that [[Melody Pond]] should go to [[User:OncomingStorm12th/Melody Pond|the overall page]] as it was used by all incarnations to a degree. [[User:Bongolium500|Bongo50 (aka Bongolium500)]] [[User talk:Bongolium500|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 18:52, 28 July 2021 (UTC)


:: I don't have a problem with the split, and I agree that Melody Pond would be best for the overall page name. [[User:LauraBatham|LauraBatham]] [[User talk:LauraBatham|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 07:47, 29 July 2021 (UTC)


[[User:0p3nsrc|0p3nsrc]] 20:41, February 22, 2011 (UTC)M
::: I also think this is a good idea, but why not use Melody Pond for both the main page ''and'' her first incarnation? "Little girl" will have to be dabbed anyway, so why not use [[Melody Pond (The Impossible Astronaut)]] instead? [[User:Danochy|Danochy]] [[User talk:Danochy|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 12:39, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
:::: I think 'Little Girl' is better for the incarnations navigation template. It accords both with the credits of the episode, with dialogue to an extent (the characters do call her "the Little Girl" for lack of a better term at some points in the script of ''[[The Impossible Astronaut (TV story)|The Impossible Astronaut]]''/''[[Day of the Moon (TV story)|Day of the Moon]]''), ''and'' with how non-Wiki-editing fans would usually speak of her if discussing River's incarnations. [[User:Scrooge MacDuck|Scrooge MacDuck]] [[User talk:Scrooge MacDuck|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 12:50, 29 July 2021 (UTC)


==Pictures of the doctor==
::::: With the template, sure, but [[:Template:Rassilons|templates needn't use just page names]]. The name "Melody Pond" is more accurate than "little girl" in that regard, especially in light of her other appearance (albeit as a [[The Flesh|Flesh]] clone for most(?) of her on-screen time) where her identity as Melody is quite important. Also I just realised that her first appearance is actually [[Prequel (The Impossible Astronaut)]] which rather throws a spanner in the works for that dabbing. [[User:Danochy|Danochy]] [[User talk:Danochy|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 13:05, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
I don't understand this part at all, and it really shouldn't be in the artcle:


: ''It is likely that she only has pictures of the Doctor's incarnations from the [http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Eleventh_Doctor Eleventh Doctor] onwards, erroneously thinking that she has all of his faces, as she has not been seen with any Doctor before the [http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Tenth_Doctor Tenth Doctor]. Even then it was her only time meeting the Tenth Doctor and she died shortly after meeting him, leaving her no time to sketch his face into her diary. She may not even be aware that the first nine incarnations ever existed.''
: When I was thinking on how to title the first incarnation page, I cycled through <nowiki>[[Little girl (The Impossible Astronaut)]], [[Melody Pond (The Impossible Astronaut)]] and [[Melody Pond's first incarnation]]</nowiki>, but went with the former because it was the only one of these to already exist. In all honesty, I'm happy with either options.
: As for the technicality of [[Prequel (The Impossible Astronaut)]].... yeah, it's not optimal. Using DPL, the only match for a page dabbed with a prequel is [[Silent (Prequel to The Impossible Astronaut)|Silent (Prequel (The Impossible Astronaut))]], so we ''could'' go with <nowiki>[[Little girl (Prequel (The Impossible Astronaut))]] or [[Melody Pond (Prequel (The Impossible Astronaut))]]</nowiki>, but I half-think we "overlook" this mistake, in order to achieve a simpler dab and avoid the double parenthesis. [[User:OncomingStorm12th|OncomingStorm12th]] [[User talk:OncomingStorm12th|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 22:20, 29 July 2021 (UTC)


First of all, this is pure speculation, so it really doesn't belong in the article. But more importantly, it's just completely erroneous speculation.
:: Of course [[Melody Pond's first incarnation]] is a good option if we want to avoid the dabbing dilemma. But otherwise I'm also happy to overlook the prequel or to otherwise consider it a ''part'' of the TV story for the purposes of dabbing the character. [[User:Danochy|Danochy]] [[User talk:Danochy|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 23:08, 29 July 2021 (UTC)


When River first meets the Tenth Doctor in the library, she clearly recognizes him and knows who he is. So she must have a picture of the Tenth Doctor.
::: Okay, hold the phone, where exactly did we get [[Prequel (The Impossible Astronaut)]] from ''anyway''? On the BBC website this is called [https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00fxf06 ''The Prequel to Episode 1'']. That title's not going to win any awards, but we do have precedents for using such "functional" titles like we would normal titles, such as ''[[The Novel of the Film (novelisation)|The Novel of the Film]]'', so… why don't we call this thing [[The Prequel to Episode 1 (webcast)]]? Granted I'm not ''thrilled'' about the prospect of [[Little girl (The Prequel to Episode 1)]] but it wouldn't have any double-parentheses.  


Also, I have no idea why whoever wrote this is assuming that she sketches the Doctor's face into her diary and that's how she has pictures of him. I mean... there are an infinate number of ways that she could have obtained pictures of him... just think about it for more than a second. [[Special:Contributions/68.33.15.127|68.33.15.127]] 14:28, March 30, 2011 (UTC)
::: But… We also need to discuss the option of [[the Little Girl]]. There are other "little girls" in the DWU, but she ''is'' the only one whom the Doctor & friends referred to, for several months, over the course of  ''[[The Impossible Astronaut (TV story)|The Impossible Astronaut]]''/''[[Day of the Moon (TV story)|Day of the Moon]]'', as ''the'' Little Girl. Interestingly, the adult River Song herself uses "the Little Girl" several times in dialogue in ''[[Day of the Moon (TV story)|Day of the Moon]]'', which is interesting if we want to talk self-identification…


::: Now granted, "The Little Girl" isn't intended to be, or presented as, a "the" name in quite the same way as "The Doctor" or even "[[The Editor]] — but I would point to [[The Woman (Hell Bent)]] and [[The Woman (The End of Time)]] as precedents for using the credited "the Something" descriptor as a page name even though it's unlikely the characters would introduce themselves with "Hello, I'm usually referred to as the Woman". Also, the way we titled our page about [[Tzim-Sha]] "[[Tim Shaw]]" for quite some time, for as long as we lacked certainty on the spelling of "Tzim-Sha", is precedent for the idea that when the other potential names are unviable,- we do sometimes use the name Team TARDIS give an entity, even if we have reason to suspect the entity called itself something else. [[User:Scrooge MacDuck|Scrooge MacDuck]] [[User talk:Scrooge MacDuck|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 23:26, 29 July 2021 (UTC)


:::: I would much rather the prequel name stay as it is, to be honest, and just bend the first appearance dabbing rule (if we were to go down that road). There are a lot of "episode 1"s, making the searchability pretty poor. Though we could always name it "Prequel to The Impossible Astronaut", such as it is on imdb. [[User:LauraBatham|LauraBatham]] [[User talk:LauraBatham|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 02:07, 30 July 2021 (UTC)


Odd in did. I think she even says her diary is of all the time she spent with the doctor in 'various incarnations'.
::::: I think that the Prequel(s) current name(s) just come from a lack of title cards, and if they're Prequels to release X, instinctively they're titled <nowiki>[[Prequel (release X)]]</nowiki> (that's certainly what I did when creating a few of the recent Big Finish ones)
::::: Now, as for using The Little Girl as a title... well, as you pointed you it could work, as precedent exists, but I think that works well enough '''''in the lack of any other names'''''. Like, if it was a random unnamed Time Lord Little Girl we saw regenerating, and then later in a spacesuit etc, I'd 100% agree with you. But as soon as we learn that Little Girl is actually Melody Pond/River as a little girl (sans capital letters), I personally think the argument looses strength a bit. Right now, I'm leaning either for [[Little girl (The Impossible Astronaut)]] (no capital letters), or [[Melody Pond's first incarnation]], to circumvent the dabbing issues. [[User:OncomingStorm12th|OncomingStorm12th]] [[User talk:OncomingStorm12th|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 02:23, 30 July 2021 (UTC)


:::::: Well not ''this'' is a coincidence if I ever saw one. Big Finish has recently released a webcast (''[[The Story of the Diary of River Song (webcast)|The Story of the Diary of River Song]]'') which recaps a lot of River's adventures and her timeline and, little do we know, they mention both of their previous incarnations. Aside from referring the River by her birth name of Melody Pond, River herself calls her second incarnation [[Mels Zucker]] (the full name), while her first incarnation is called (guess what) [[Little girl (The Impossible Astronaut)|little girl]].
:::::: Now, I'll not give any rulings, given I was the one to start the discussion, but this serves as a quite nice food for thought, and a bump in the talk page as well. [[User:OncomingStorm12th|OncomingStorm12th]] [[User talk:OncomingStorm12th|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 16:41, 3 August 2021 (UTC)


::: I now notice that a few days ago, [[User:SOTO]] standardised prequel naming via bot, so now we have [[Prequel to The Impossible Astronaut (webcast)]] instead of the clunky [[Prequel (The Impossible Astronaut]]. That means that we can now safely and unambiguously have the "First Melody" at [[Melody Pond (Prequel to The Impossible Astronaut)]], and more generally:
* [[Melody Pond]]
** [[Melody Pond (Prequel to The Impossible Astronaut)]]
** [[Mels Zucker]]
** [[River Song]]
::: Is this approach agreeable for everyone? [[User:OncomingStorm12th|OncomingStorm12th]] [[User talk:OncomingStorm12th|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 21:46, 13 October 2021 (UTC)


Plus the doctor has a machine that can make photogaphs of people from their DNA, thus he obviously (as they were wife and husband) did that. Speculation, however, is the only way at the moment as Moffat hasn't written the river song ending yet. (well beginning as it started with the end) [[User:TheArtistBox|TheArtistBox]] 12:00, April 22, 2011 (UTC)
:::: I'm fine with that. [[User:LauraBatham|LauraBatham]] [[User talk:LauraBatham|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 21:52, 13 October 2021 (UTC)


== Stone Dalek ==
::::: Agreed. I think we can move forward with this. <span style="color: #baa3d6;font-family:Comic Sans;">[[User:Scrooge MacDuck|'''Scrooge MacDuck''']]</span> <span style="color: #baa3d6;">[[User_talk:Scrooge MacDuck|⊕]]</span> 10:23, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
 
How can we be sure that River actually killed the [[Stone Dalek]]??
 
Firstly, although we see the stand off, with River threatening the dalek who asks for mercy, we never see or hear her shooting it. Likewise, although River states that it died, we have no proof of this.
 
River is a mysterious character, someone who would make a DALEK ask for MERCY!!! I do not believe we should take anything for granted and just assume that she killed it and she is telling the truth.
 
[[User:Geek Mythology|Geek Mythology]] 11:57, April 22, 2011 (UTC)
 
When we see River taunting the Dalek, she is grinning. We then do not see or hear what happens next, guessing is just speculation. When she walks back and tells us 'it died', her mood has dramatically changed, leaving me to guess something other/more than just killing it.
 
I'm not specifically saying she didn't kill it, only that we do not know either way.
 
To put it simply, not only is River mysterious and untrustworthy, but Doctor Who is a show full of twists and turns. The Doctor doesn't trust River, therefore I don't trust River.
 
[[User:Geek Mythology|Geek Mythology]] 19:01, May 14, 2011 (UTC)
 
That's a nice opinion but all the evidence suggests it died. It doesn't show up again does it? Why would she lie, was she in league with the Dalek? (That's a no by the way.) There is nothing to suggest the Dalek got bored or distracted by a... casino.----[[User:Skittles the hog|Skittles the hog]]--<small>[[User talk:Skittles the hog|Talk]]</small> 19:12, May 14, 2011 (UTC)
 
Exactly, the evidence ''suggests'', we cannot know for certain. I am not saying that she did not kill the Dalek, either in talk pages, or on the page itself. I am merely trying to write a description that is based on what is factually known, without speculating either way.
 
PS, It hasn't shown up '''yet''', The series 5 finale was not conclusive on all plot threads.
[[User:Geek Mythology|Geek Mythology]] 19:17, May 14, 2011 (UTC)
 
:Amy said "And the Dalek?" to which River replied "It '''died.'''" Why would she lie? [[User:Mini-mitch|Mini-mitch]]\[[User talk:Mini-mitch|talk]] 19:20, May 14, 2011 (UTC)
 
Exactly. However, according to this user, it didn't die, it just wandered off.----[[User:Skittles the hog|Skittles the hog]]--<small>[[User talk:Skittles the hog|Talk]]</small> 19:21, May 14, 2011 (UTC)
 
:She would lie because she is a condemned prisoner, apparently for killing one of the best men she's ever known, Octavian warned the Doctor about her, and he doesn't trust her. So why do you?
 
:I am not saying it wandered off, but how do we know that she didn't just disable it, strip the casing of technology and leave the dalek inside alive, alone and helpless.
 
:I am not trying to add anything ficticious to the page, merely trying to stick to what we '''know''', and not be '''speculative'''. [[User:Geek Mythology|Geek Mythology]] 19:28, May 14, 2011 (UTC)
 
::All we know is that it was killed. It was the end of the Universe, she hardly going lie, she not going take chance. She shot it, she said the shot would kill it and then came down stairs and said it was dead. To say anything against what is said on screen is speculative. [[User:Mini-mitch|Mini-mitch]]\[[User talk:Mini-mitch|talk]] 19:32, May 14, 2011 (UTC)
 
Yeah your right, we should add that she leaves case-less Daleks suffering, ''because that's what we know''. No, we know that she killed it. That's all. There's absolutely nothing to say otherwise!----[[User:Skittles the hog|Skittles the hog]]--<small>[[User talk:Skittles the hog|Talk]]</small> 19:33, May 14, 2011 (UTC)
 
: I didn't say we should '''add''' anything, and if my comments are too confusing for you, here is my proposed change;
 
:::River was devoted to the [[Doctor]], and cared very much for those around her such as Amy and her team in [[The Library]]. Despite this, she could also be merciless, and repeatedly ordered the scared [[Stone Dalek]] to beg for mercy after it had shot the Doctor.
 
:I have not said she ''does'' kill the dalek, I have not said she ''doesn't'' kill the dalek. So far you have been critisicing my opinion, so forget what I have said previously, and tell me what is factually wrong with my proposed change.
[[User:Geek Mythology|Geek Mythology]] 19:40, May 14, 2011 (UTC)
 
:You forgot to add the comment where she said the Dalek died. [[User:Mini-mitch|Mini-mitch]]\[[User talk:Mini-mitch|talk]] 19:43, May 14, 2011 (UTC)
 
I'm not criticising your opinion, in fact I've repeatedly stated that its nice, quote: ''"That's a nice opinion"''. As for your change, it removes some of the current information so it could be seen as negative.----[[User:Skittles the hog|Skittles the hog]]--<small>[[User talk:Skittles the hog|Talk]]</small> 19:47, May 14, 2011 (UTC)
 
Skittles: I can see where you are coming from, but this is a wikia. Something anyone can edit, and with all due respect, anyone who adds to wikias should expect their work to be changed (yes, even me), to better reflect what we know. I appreciate that wikias are also communities, but when I make changes, whether they are gramatically or factually, other peoples feelings aren't my main concern. I am merely trying to make one paragraph more factual and less speculative.
 
Mitch: Technically I asked what was wrong with what I had written, not what I hadn't written, but point taken. My new proposal goes thus;
:::River was devoted to the [[Doctor]], and cared very much for those around her such as Amy and her team in [[The Library]]. Despite this, she could also be merciless; she repeatedly ordered the scared [[Stone Dalek]] to beg for mercy, and displayed no sign of remorse when telling Amy and Rory 'It died'.
 
Not only does this reference the dalek 'dying', it also tells us that the evidence for this is River's word, and the addition of the lack of remorse helps to solidify River's mercilessness.
 
Is this a useful compromise? [[User:Geek Mythology|Geek Mythology]] 19:58, May 14, 2011 (UTC)
 
There's no need for a new revision. The information is already correct.----[[User:Skittles the hog|Skittles the hog]]--<small>[[User talk:Skittles the hog|Talk]]</small> 20:11, May 14, 2011 (UTC)
 
We still don't know River's agenda, and therefore I still don't see how specualting that we can just trust mysterious characters at their face value is 'correct'. I was just trying to help edit a page that said it needed to be cleaned up, but as even my proposed factual compromise has been voted down, I'm man enough to leave it.
[[User:Geek Mythology|Geek Mythology]] 20:20, May 14, 2011 (UTC)
 
This wiki page contains canonical information seen on screen during Doctor Who (and some Novelisations and Audio Plays), and unless contradicted by other events i.e. River later says "well actually i didnt kill that dalek" or the same Stone Dalek turns up again, we have no other recourse but to take what she says as Fact. It is common in TV & Film to cutaway from an event that the audience knows will happen, we dont need to see it. Whilst i agree that at certain times they would use it as a red herring, and the events we assumed would take place did not (ie a dalek being killed). It is only important when the character returns later only to prove the other was lying. We did not see the Stone Dalek again, so we must therefore assume that River was truthful, and considering the Doctor "Reset the Universe" (wibbly-wobbly-timey-wimey) i'd say its extremely probable that the Stone Dalek no longer exists. Therefore the article is correct to state River killed the Dalek. [[Special:Contributions/86.10.190.227|86.10.190.227]] 14:17, June 5, 2011 (UTC)
 
Occam's Razor. [[User:Boblipton|Boblipton]] 11:11, June 6, 2011 (UTC)
 
I get that the article won't be changed, thats cool, but in terms of the theory, one of the very first things we hear River say in the Library is 'I lied, I'm always lying.' That's why I don't trust her. [[User:Geek Mythology|Geek Mythology]] 11:27, June 6, 2011 (UTC)
 
== [[The Impossible Astronaut]] ==
 
Where does the events of [[The Impossible Astronaut]] fit in for her? [[User:DuduDoctor|DuduDoctor]] 21:06, April 23, 2011 (UTC)
*Obviously it takes place before ''[[Silence in the Library]]''/''[[Forest of the Dead]]''. She's wearing a vortex manipulator, so it must be ''after'' ''[[The Pandorica Opens (TV story)|The Pandorica Opens]]''/''[[The Big Bang]]''. However, by the time of ''[[The Time of Angels]]''/''[[Flesh and Stone]]'' she no longer has the manipulator. Thus, from the sound of it, the order (so far) for her is:
**''[[The Pandorica Opens (TV story)|The Pandorica Opens]]''
**''[[The Big Bang]]''
**''[[The Impossible Astronaut]]''
**''[[Day of the Moon]]''
**''[[The Time of Angels]]''
**''[[Flesh and Stone]]''
**''[[Silence in the Library]]''
**''[[Forest of the Dead]]''
--[[User:Witoki|Witoki]] 04:22, April 24, 2011 (UTC)
 
In the page, the Impossible Astronut is before The Pandorica Opens/The Big Bang, even though in The Big Bang, River calls Rory the Roman Centurian, but she would have learned his name in The Impossible Astronaut! Someone has to change it. - [[User:BillyWilliam3rd|BillyWilliam3rd]] 15: 11, April 24, 2011 (UTC)
 
Lets stick the TIA after TBB and between ToA for the moment as it is the most accurate placement we can have for the story at the moment. Hopefully in next weeks episode we get a better placement in relation to River's timeline. --[[User:Revanvolatrelundar|Revan]]\[[User_talk:Revanvolatrelundar|Talk]] 15:05, April 24, 2011 (UTC)
 
She didn't seem to know Rory at all in The Pandorica Opens/The Big Bang, but goes as far as having a very personal conversation with him in The Impossible Astronaut, and some more interation in Day of the Moon. Amy and Rory also talked about the events of The Big Bang in their conversation with her as if she had already done it, and she didn't seem confusedin the least, she seemed to know what Amy was saying. She is seen to have the Vortex Manipulator, too. The comment on how River was "doing it again" in Stormcage might be a hint back to her escape in the series 5 finale. Dorium should be appearing in Day of the Moon (having been seen in the CBBC trailer for series 6 and seen filming for it), so that should make things more clearer, like him referring to her black mailing him or something. [[Special:Contributions/90.202.150.156|90.202.150.156]] 16:40, April 24, 2011 (UTC)
 
The vortex manipulator can't be used as evidence of when in her timeline this takes place, as she could have had another vortex manipulator in the past, lost it, and obtained a new one from Dorium in ''The Pandorica Opens''. In her conversation with Amy and Rory, River didn't say anything about ''The Pandorica Opens'' or ''The Big Bang'', so it is possible that she just chose to ignore Amy and Rory talking about something that hadn't happened to her yet, to avoid spoilers. Hopefully, ''Day of the Moon'' will provide a better hint as to where in her timeline this takes place.[[User:Icecreamdif|Icecreamdif]] 17:32, April 24, 2011 (UTC)
 
I don't think Series 5 can really be used as proof anymore either to be honest. Despite the fact that the Doctor, Amy, Rory and River seem to remember the Series's events, the Big Bang 2 changed the timeline, making Series 5 an alternate timeline. One case in point: Amy has her parents now, and Rory didn't die. Therefore River may have met Amy and Rory another time we haven't seen, or the Doctor mentioned them to her in her past. In "The Big Bang", River says the Doctor has yet to find out who she is the next time they meet, so she seems to know what's coming in his future. Additionally, River refers to meeting the Doctor in reverse order during her conversation in "The Impossible Astronaut", which seems a bit to specific to contradict for now. Hopefully, once "Day of the Moon" comes out things will be clarified.--[[User:Samoth|Samoth]] 18:11, April 24, 2011 (UTC)
 
I think that ''The Impossible Astronaut / Day of the Moon'' both come before ''The Pandorica Opens / The Big Bang'', since so far every appearance by River to the viewers and the Doctor has been earlier in her personal timeline, and she says as much to Rory about her past being his future and his past being her future, and that when he first met her he knew everything about her but with every meeting afterwards he knew less and less (and that once she gets to the point where he doesn't know her at all, she will die, which ends up being a fact). She also says at the end of Series 5 that the next time they meet that "everything changes" and "I'm so sorry", which implies to me that she's already been through all the events of Series 6. As for having a vortex manipulator, it doesn't mean that this takes place after the Pandorica... she definitely wouldn't have it and would have to get a replacement once she's imprisoned again, after escaping to head to Stonehenge.[[Special:Contributions/207.179.173.48|207.179.173.48]] 18:48, April 24, 2011 (UTC)
 
Series 5 did NOT take place in an alternate timeline. By saying that, you say the entire show prior to series 6 takes place in another world. What a loaf of rubbish, totally contraditing the Doctor's dialouge about restoring the universe and what Moffat said regarding the story. The River seen in Flesh and Stone refers to the events of th series 5 finale, and recognises the crack by the look on her face. Yet it hasn't happened yet for the Doctor. If you had even bothered paying attention, it was said that flying the Pandorica into the explosion, theywould bringthe unierse back to exactly how it was before it was destroyed, which was cracked. But the cracks closed, not ceased to exist. Reference was made to how the cracks would close in Venice - because of the Doctor's actions, which explains why Starship UK and the War Rooms weren't erased - because the cracks there closed.
 
You contradict the show, as characters from series 5 are reappearing in sries 6, including Craig and Sophie. How's that possible if series 5 was an alternate timeline?
 
River doesn't ALWAYS meet the Doctor in reverse order, it's just that most of it goes in a basic form of reverse. You clearly missed the part where River met a Doctor who was in sync with her at the begining of the episode, or how she mentioned that before going to the Library, her last adventure was when he used the Future Sonic, and we haven't even seen the Doctor get that far yet. So, no, not all of it is in reverse, like how the Doctor at the begining had already done Easter Island, and so had she. [[User:Delton Menace|Delton Menace]] 00:45, April 25, 2011 (UTC)
 
Something happens at the end of Day of the Moon, that in my opinion puts this before The Pandorica Opens/The Big Bang - if it was after something would have happened in those episodes - you'll understand when you see it - also she pretty much confirms it in The Imposible astronaught that they're are traveling in oposite directions - as for not knowing Rory - well he was erased from time, never exisisted so that can be atributed to her not knowing him, either that or she is a great actress and clever when it comes to hiding spoilers...[[Special:Contributions/91.108.5.196|91.108.5.196]] 12:46, April 25, 2011 (UTC)
 
River stated explicitly that her and the Doctor were meeting in reverse. I think we should use that for her timeline. -- [[User:Ripmssmith|Rest In Peace Sarah Jane]] \ [[User_talk:Ripmssmith|Talk to me!]] 15:01, April 25, 2011 (UTC)
 
Leave the timeline as it is and wait for part two to shed some light on it.----[[User:Skittles the hog|Skittles the hog]]--<small>[[User talk:Skittles the hog|Talk]]</small> 15:22, April 25, 2011 (UTC)
 
As a "PS" to my above, River told the Doctor "that's when everything changes" at the end of ''[[The Big Bang]]'', and things changed pretty drastically with the Doctor getting. Part 2 will likely shed more light on things, but I think given what she told Rory and and the Doctor, that the exact reverse order is the correct one. Any other thoughts? -- [[User:Ripmssmith|Rest In Peace Sarah Jane]] \ [[User_talk:Ripmssmith|Talk to me!]] 15:44, April 25, 2011 (UTC)
 
I would say that the order is likely to be:
*''[[The Pandorica Opens (TV story)|The Pandorica Opens ]]''
*''[[The Big Bang]]''
*''[[The Impossible Astronaut]]''
*''[[Day of the Moon]]''
*''[[The Time of Angels|The Time of Angels ]]''
*''[[Flesh and Stone]]''
*''[[Silence in the Library]]''
*''[[Forest of the Dead]]''
We know TPO happens before ToA (from her point of view) because River says as much.
 
As she doesn't know who Rory is in TPO we have to assume the TIA comes after that from her point of view as she clearly knows who he is (there would be no reason for her to pretend not to know him, its not like she hides her time-travling nature and fore-knowledge).
 
The only other peice of evidence of where the timeline occured in reguards to ToA is the Vortex Manipilator. It's not hard evidence (it could be a different one) but its the only evidence we have. So until the better evidence is provided I think we will have to assume that TIA occures before ToA where she had returned to prision and presumably had her Vortex Manipulator confiscated.
 
We know they meet in a general (but imperfect) reverse order because of the diaries. If there were major mix-ups in their timelines they would have to match up every single event in their diaries rather than just "have we dont this yet". So while we can generalise and use it as a trend, we cannot use it to make a specific order.
 
As for her being in prision in the 52ndC in TPO and the 51st in ToA (in her personal future but the actual past) there are two explanations:
 
1) She was recaptured in the 51stC and taken to back prision. As the Time Agency exists during this period it is possible the personal timelines (and time travel) are factored in when serving a sentence. I find it less likely that she would have turned herself in at a time before she was originally in prision (possibly even before she had commited the crime), although I guess it's possible.
 
2) It was a mistake. When working out the dates for TPO someone involved in the episode read "51st Cenutry" from ToA and made up a date begining with "51??" (5145 as it turned out); which I think is an easy enough mistake/oversight to make. [[User:Looq|Looq]] 21:43, April 25, 2011 (UTC)
 
I'm sorry, did people not listen to what she had to say? "trouble is, it's all back to front, my past is his future, We're travelling in oposite directions. Every time we meet, I know him more, he knows me less." surely this is confirmation that the orders are reverse.
 
Also in The Pandorica Opens - Amy says to River "The last time we saw you, you said we'd see you again when the Pandorica opens" or something like that - the way you have it, sh'e be telling them in The Impossible Astronaut/Day of the Moon! [[Special:Contributions/91.108.5.196|91.108.5.196]] 23:06, April 25, 2011 (UTC)
 
The vortex manipulator is not evidence. What She explicitly says onscreen is. -- [[User:Ripmssmith|Rest In Peace Sarah Jane]] \ [[User_talk:Ripmssmith|Talk to me!]] 13:08, April 26, 2011 (UTC)
 
The vortex manipulator isn't evidence. She states that they are going in the wrong direction, but she hasn't had all the events happen to her yet. Also, according to Moffat's twitter, this is set before The Big Bang for River, and that she pretended not to know him in those two episodes. --[[User:The Thirteenth Doctor|The Thirteenth Doctor]] 13:36, April 26, 2011 (UTC)
 
At the point River refers to Rory as the 'Roman Centurion' in TPO/TBB, Rory had been erased from history... Therefore, you could conclude that River would not know who Rory was, regardless of whether she met him 'earlier' in TIA/DOTM. Thus, TIA/DOTM happens <u>before</u><u> </u>TPO/TBB.
 
Another point is that River's timeline runs 'backwards' to the Doctor's, meaning she could have met Amy and Rory in her past/Doctor's future. [[User:Eladkse|Eladkse]] 15:20, April 26, 2011 (UTC)
 
There you go Steven Moffat the writer has even confirmed that River knew Rory and she was lying - thats pretty much confirmation that you have the order wrong! see his twitter! https://twitter.com/#!/steven_moffat [[Special:Contributions/91.108.5.196|91.108.5.196]] 17:22, April 26, 2011 (UTC)
 
In light of this tweet (which I had missed a couple of comments back), I wish to make a shocking conclution: Moffat, although being the head writer, is wrong. It is just not plausable... and he probably made it up on the spot. At least what I said above is plausable. [[User:Eladkse|Eladkse]] 17:43, April 26, 2011 (UTC)
 
Moffat was agrreing with you! the origional question was "why does River know Rory now when she didn't know him in the Big Bang? Isn't that episode in her future?" he replied "She DOES know him, she pretends not to. Spoilers." which is what isaid further up - The fact of the matter is this though - Moffat has confirmed now that TIO/DOTM happens before TPO/TBB - the order in the article needs to be changed... it seems people dont actually listen to what is said and would rather have visual confirmation and hence why they are clinging onto a votrex manipulator [[Special:Contributions/91.108.5.196|91.108.5.196]] 18:19, April 26, 2011 (UTC)
 
Calm down... I'm not saying that an answers hasn't been 'provided' - I'm just suggesting a much more plausable one: River did not know Rory because at that point, Rory didn't exist. [[User:Eladkse|Eladkse]] 18:32, April 26, 2011 (UTC)
 
I see many apologies, my mistake - it may not be the answer you want but one has been provided. By the way i totally aggree with what you are saying about the deleting from existance - i suggested it further up :D [[Special:Contributions/91.108.5.196|91.108.5.196]] 19:16, April 26, 2011 (UTC)
 
Did you? My apologies as well then - I found it hard to read this discussion due to the wiki's font choice and lack of indenting, meaning I missed a couple of the comments as I tried to read it. [[User:Eladkse|Eladkse]] 20:21, April 26, 2011 (UTC)
 
Well it doesn't matter now anyway - the correct order has been placed [[Special:Contributions/91.108.5.196|91.108.5.196]] 19:24, April 26, 2011 (UTC)
 
I think the Kiss proves that River experiences 1969 in the USA before the Big Bang. Realising that the doctor had not kissed her before, she now knows not to kiss him in her future, Ie, series 5. [[User:Geek Mythology|Geek Mythology]] 18:41, April 30, 2011 (UTC)
 
Easiest proof that every instance is in reverse order:
*end of ''[[Day of the Moon]]'':
**'''[[Eleventh Doctor]]:''' See you next time, call me!
*start of ''[[The Pandorica Opens (TV story)|The Pandorica Opens]]'':
**'''[[Eleventh Doctor]]:''' You graffitied the oldest cliff face in the universe.
**'''[[River Song]]:''' You wouldn't answer your phone.
 
Simple enough, I think. [[User:Witoki|Witoki]] 22:41, April 30, 2011 (UTC)
 
 
 
I think its fair enough to say that the current order it reversed, but it might not always be the case for two simple reasons:
 
1) The Diaries wouldn't work. If the order was in perfect reverse compared to the other, there would be no point in the diaries whatsoever, because there would be no events in the Doctor's that would be in River's at the same time except for the events that they just experienced together (and even then only before they parted ways). For an event to be in both their pasts then they must meet out of (reverse) order some of the time. Although the order is clearly ''generally ''reversed.
 
2) We have know of two specific out of order events:
 
A) River has not been given the Doctor's Sonic Screwdriver from our perspective yet; therefore a Doctor from our future must contact a River from our past (i.e. between Silence in the Library and The Time of Angels). I believe it was the "picnic as asgard" where their timelines seemed to be in sync (his last meeting with her, and her second to last meeting with him).
 
B) The FutureDoc10 from the begining of the Impossible Astronaut, who seemed to be "in-sync" with the River of that time (unlike the PresentDoc10 to whom River is still a fairly new companion). [[User:Looq|Looq]] 02:41, May 1, 2011 (UTC)
 
''I think you mean 11, not 10, unless you refer to the First Doctor as Doc 0''--[[Special:Contributions/86.135.146.25|86.135.146.25]] 10:08, May 1, 2011 (UTC)
 
We need to wait to see how the Doctor's death resolves/unresolves/whatever, but River does say that they went to see the opera just before ''Silence in the Library''/''Forest of the Dead'' when she presumably receives the screwdriver. This could very easily be right before the Doctor sends the geo letters. [[User:Witoki|Witoki]] 02:43, May 1, 2011 (UTC)
 
While we should wait some more to get 100% verification of the timeline, River's last scene in ''Day of the Moon'' does indicate something. She kisses the Doctor, and it's his first kiss from his point of view. River says it's her last then, as the next time she'll meet him he'll know her even less. In fact, in the ''Pandorcia Opens''/''Big Bang'', she doesn't even try to kiss him. Thus the latter two wouldn't have happened to River before the ''Day of the Moon'' because River would have resigned herself to the fact that the Doctor doesn't know her enough to ''want'' to kiss her. --[[User:Samoth|Samoth]] 15:46, May 1, 2011 (UTC)
 
Although I agree that the doctor must visit her at some point before the library to give her the sonic screwdriver, the four stories we have seen SO FAR all seem to take place in the reverse order that they have been broadcast, ie, America 2011/1969, then Pandorica, Byzantium, and finally Library.
[[User:Geek Mythology|Geek Mythology]] 17:21, May 1, 2011 (UTC)
 
* Well, we already know they can't meet purely in reverse order (even if that's the general pattern) because the Doctor's future self met Impossible Planet River before his present self did. I'm not convinced that will be their last kiss from her perspective, either. Her second-to-last meeting with the Doctor (from her perspective) when he has a big cry about her impending death doesn't seem like it would be particularly platonic. Unless Ten did it offscreen, I suppose. [[Special:Contributions/95.150.108.95|95.150.108.95]] 15:54, May 2, 2011 (UTC)
* He may have all ready had that meeting with her - we don't actually know that he didnt go see River before regenerating from the 10th to 11th - the pinc may have been apart of the 10ths goodbye to everyone[[User:LagunaVII|LagunaVII]] 18:01, May 3, 2011 (UTC)
 
Sitting down for a picnic wouldn't fit the basic pattern of the Tenth Doctor's final meetings with everyone. He hardly knew River at the time, and for everybody else he ust stood off to the side and stared at them. Besides, the Tenth Doctor's sonic screwdriver didn't have red settings, and the Eleventh Doctor still had the Tenth Doctor's sonic screwdriver.[[User:Icecreamdif|Icecreamdif]] 03:54, May 4, 2011 (UTC)
 
: While it probably wouldn't have been during Ten's "goodbye tour", the picnic at Asgard ''must ''have involved him. Otherwise River asking Ten if he remembered Asgard after she'd ''already established'' that he came before Eleven (with the Byzantium question) would make ''no sense whatsoever''. The most plausible scenario is that the picnic at Asgard took place in the "early days" from BOTH of their perspectives: Ten and a young River, neither one knowing exactly how much the other knows about their future. Again, despite what River says at the end of'' Day of the Moon'', it is simply <u>not possible</u> for every single meeting to occur in reverse order, as River and Future!Eleven both remembered doing Easter Island.[[Special:Contributions/95.150.87.220|95.150.87.220]] 19:20, May 18, 2011 (UTC)
:: You raise a very good point here. It is '''strange '''that she asks Ten whether they have done Asgard. I can see why you would be led to think that Asgard therefore involved Ten. However, you are overlooking something else from the Library, which undermines your point. Let me explain. River also asks Ten if they have done the Crash at the Byzantium. Yet we know and she knows that this is an event that takes place with a Doctor who is not Ten. So it is perfectly plausable for her to ask Ten whether they did Asgard, by the same logic. (And equally ridiculous!) Does that make sense?
::
::
:: Here is what I believe explains this point. It's a '''mistake. '''A mistake on Moffat's part, that only the astute would recognise.''' '''It may have to do with the fact that Moffat believed he was going to have another series with Ten, in which he was going to write Crash at the Byzantium and Picnic at Asgard. We know that Tenant's fourth series got canned though, and we only had the specials instead. So when Byzantium got moved to Smith... well. It leaves a continuity hole. But we'll live.[[User:JoelJoel321|JoelJoel321]] 16:54, June 6, 2011 (UTC)
::
::: River didnt recognise 10 in the Library, the suggestion that he met her at Asgard or at all ever again, is ridiculous. She only knew who he was because she sent him a message on the Psychic Paper "The Library, Come as soon as you can x". She also said it "Arrived too early", the message was probably intended for 11 or another later Doctor. More likely River has met the doctor more out of sequence than in order, so her diary likely has several different timelines in it. When she meets 10, she is trying to work out where in the timeline he fits, suggesting she has overlapping meetings with multiple versions of the doctor. Later realising she has never met this version, and he has never met her at all. Pictures of the doctor in her diary are more likely from Photographs on the Tardis, or from other sources. [[Special:Contributions/86.10.190.227|86.10.190.227]] 15:15, June 5, 2011 (UTC)
 
== Punctuation ==
 
The punctuation in this article violates the most basic grammar rules. I have tried changing it, but an admin keeps reverting the edits and I do not want him to ban me for trying to improve the article. Here is a list of [http://www.grammarbook.com/punctuation/quotes.asp rules for quotation marks]. Can somebody please go through and fix this article? -- [[User:Ripmssmith|Rest In Peace Sarah Jane]] \ [[User_talk:Ripmssmith|Talk to me!]] 20:27, April 28, 2011 (UTC)
 
== America ==
 
"From his shocked reaction, she realised that from his perspective it was their first kiss, and she would never kiss him again."
 
That is misleading, and playing into the trap the writers probably want you to.
 
"...and from her perspective ''believes'' she will never kiss him again. However, this might not be true as the Doctor has yet to give her his sonic screw driver. In that, a future him is still set to appear in her future... allowing her time for at least one, last kiss. After all, she doesn't actually know her future. Spoilers." [[User:Emptylord|Emptylord]] 23:30, May 3, 2011 (UTC)
:I'd like to point out that a ''future'' version of the Doctor gives her his screwdriver. In all of her future encounters with past Doctors, she won't kiss him again. --[[User:Bold Clone|<span style="color:blue">'''Bold'''</span>]] [[User Talk:Bold Clone|<span style="color:gold">'''Clone'''</span>]] 23:57, May 3, 2011 (UTC)
 
It doesn't make any difference to her whether they are future or past. To her, the Eleventh Doctor in ''Time of Angels''/''Flesh and Stone'' and ''The Pandorica Opens''/''The Big Bang'' and the Tenth Doctor in ''Silence in the Library''/''Forest of the Dead'' are all future Doctors, as is the Doctor who gave her his sonic screwdriver. Just because the Doctor who gave her his sonic is from the future from our perspective, doesn't mean that it is any different to River.[[User:Icecreamdif|Icecreamdif]] 03:50, May 4, 2011 (UTC)
:Not quite. When the 11th Doctor said that he and River hadn't kissed before, all that that means is that she won't kiss the 11th Docotr or the Tenth Doctor in her future/his past. That doesn't mean that she won't still kiss the Doctor in his personal future, which would include the time where he will give her his screwdriver. If it's a future version of the Doctor, then she can still kiss him, even if it's in her future. --[[User:Bold Clone|<span style="color:blue">'''Bold'''</span>]] [[User Talk:Bold Clone|<span style="color:gold">'''Clone'''</span>]] 14:54, May 4, 2011 (UTC)
:
::I would like to make the following observation. He says "There is a first time for everything." She says "And a last time". That does not necessarily mean that she believed in her head that that would be the last time she kissed him in her time stream. It may simply have been a reflection of her general state of mind, awareness, that she was coming closer to the end of her relationship with the Doctor. His first kiss was a stark signal of that general truth.
::
::At any rate, whatever she believed at that point, she must kiss the Doctor at a point in HER future - i.e. at the Singing Towers of Dalarium. That is her penultimate ever meeting with the Doctor, and she does to Dalarium with a Doctor who knows her well. (It could even have been the Twelvth or Thirteenth or Fourtenth Doctor, not necessarily the Eleventh). A kiss is likely at that event. And it will be sad! (The Doctor will know he is sending her to her death, knowing that he'll still meet earlier versions of her in his own time stream).[[User:JoelJoel321|JoelJoel321]] 22:38, June 5, 2011 (UTC)
 
== can someone edit ==
 
 
 
<p style="border-top-width: 0px; border-right-width: 0px; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-left-width: 0px; border-style: initial; border-color: initial; font-style: inherit; font-weight: inherit; margin-top: 0.4em; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;">can someone edit the fact it says the Doctor is meeting her in reverse order for the following reasons</p>
 
<p style="border-top-width: 0px; border-right-width: 0px; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-left-width: 0px; border-style: initial; border-color: initial; font-style: inherit; font-weight: inherit; margin-top: 0.4em; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;">1 the 1103 Doctor didn't meet her in total reverse order as he had done Jim the Fish and Easter Island</p>
 
<p style="border-top-width: 0px; border-right-width: 0px; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-left-width: 0px; border-style: initial; border-color: initial; font-style: inherit; font-weight: inherit; margin-top: 0.4em; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;">2 The fact she compares diaries with the Doctor implies that they aren't meeting in reverse order if they were then why keep the diary thanks [[Special:Contributions/78.105.95.95|78.105.95.95]] 19:29, May 19, 2011 (UTC)</p>
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
<p style="border-top-width: 0px; border-right-width: 0px; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-left-width: 0px; border-style: initial; border-color: initial; font-style: inherit; font-weight: inherit; margin-top: 0.4em; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;">The diary is how they know they are meeting in reverse order. [[User:Doctor no. 14|Doctor no. 14]] 12:49, May 22, 2011 (UTC)</p>
 
 
 
<p style="border-top-width: 0px; border-right-width: 0px; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-left-width: 0px; border-style: initial; border-color: initial; font-style: inherit; font-weight: inherit; margin-top: 0.4em; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;">No it isn't. We have already seen them use it to realise they met after both of them had done Jim the Fish etc. and River tells the 10th Doctor that ''her Doctor '' met her for the last timebefore library and gave her his sonic. We haven't seen that yet [[Special:Contributions/78.105.95.95|78.105.95.95]] 15:11, May 24, 2011 (UTC)</p>
 
== Reverse Order ==
 
Although there has been some discussion under different headings, the way I see it the main thing to remember is that there is a difference betweeen their 'adventures' and their 'episodes'
 
1. The Doctor experiences the episodes in the order that they are made, and broadcast. All evidence suggests that River Song experiences the episodes in the reverse order. ("Call me"/"You didn't answer your phone")
2. River and the Doctor will/have had adventures that are not shown in a television episode.
 
Just before her death, River explains that the last time she saw the Doctor, he had a new hair cut and was wearing a suit, and that he gave her the sonic screwdriver when they went to see the singing towers. She also states that the Doctor cried, knowing her next adventure would be her last. This event would therfore obviously take place between the Byzantium and The Library (from River's perspective). (Anyone object if I add this info to the main page?)
 
It is possible that as it has already been described, we won't see the actual event in an episode. I am therefore assuming that, flashbacks aside, each episode featuring River and the Doctor will carry on being in reverse order from each perspective.
 
PS, remember it is a TV show aimed at family viewing, and therefore needs to be understood by children. The producers wouldn't make it any more complicated than it needs to be.
 
[[User:Geek Mythology|Geek Mythology]] 13:53, May 25, 2011 (UTC)
 
 
 
Geek Mythology, it is nonsense to suggest The Tenth or Eleventh Doctor went to Dalarium with River at some point between the Library and the Byzantium, and broke down and cried. For starters, she says that she went to Dalarium with the future Doctor, the "real you", i.e. the one she knows well. The Doctor doesn't know her at all by the time they get to the Byzantium.
 
What's more, it simple cannot be the case that the Grand Moff is not going to make an episode about the Singing Towers of Dalarium. That is massive, pivotal part of their story.
 
Gosh how I wish that she hadn't said "we're travelling in opposite directions". It has been taken so damn literally. It is a generalised statement! They are for the most part travelling in different directions, but it isn't an exact science!
 
And let us remember further still please, that '''she doesn't know everything about her own future. '''The Silence in America happened BEFORE the Singing Towers of Dalarium in her time stream. So, even if she truly believed that they were going in opposite directions at the time of the Silence in America, that doesn't preclude her time stream from becoming imperfectly reversed getting out of joint after that time.''' '''[[User:JoelJoel321|JoelJoel321]] 22:00, June 5, 2011 (UTC)
 
 
<p style="border-top-width: 0px; border-right-width: 0px; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-left-width: 0px; border-style: initial; border-color: initial; font-style: inherit; font-weight: inherit; margin-top: 0.4em; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;">If River is supposed to be going in reverse order to the doctor, how come she first gets her vortex manipulator in 'the pandorica opens', yet she already has it in 'a good man goes to war'?</p>
 
 
<p style="border-top-width: 0px; border-right-width: 0px; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-left-width: 0px; border-style: initial; border-color: initial; font-style: inherit; font-weight: inherit; margin-top: 1em; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;">On top of this, dorium dies at demon's run, yet is alive in 5145 to sell the vortex manipulator. River doesn't have a vortex manipulator in 5145, meaning that she first gets one in 5145. Demon's run therefore takes place after 5145, meaning that the Doctor and River's timelines are not completely reverse. [[User:Pharap|Pharap]] 01:15, June 5, 2011 (UTC)</p>
 
:Firstly, JoelJoel, sorry if I didn't explain myself correctly, I never meant to imply that Darilium occured between The Library and The Byzantm for the Doctor. As I said, I do not believe that the Doctor and River are meeting each other in exactly the opposite order, only that the events '''that we see in the Television episodes''' are opposite. So River turning up at Demon Run, happened before she saw Rory in the Stormcage, which happened before she went to America, then Pandorica etc. I admit that they also had other adventures in between (1814 with Stevie Wonder for example), that probably would have occured in a random order, but we just didn't see them.
 
:In terms of the singing towers, it might be shown, it might not. Firstly, we already know it happens, and secondly, the Last Great Time War was also massive and pivotal, but we haven't seen that yet either. If we do see it, I imagine it will be along the lines of the Tenth saying good bye to his companions before his regeneration, I doubt an entire episode will be made out of it.
 
:Pharap, in terms of Dorium in 5145, it's timey wimey remember. River and The Doctor are both time-travellers, so just because Demon's Run occured after 5145, don't assume that natural linear time has any say on their adventures.
 
:In terms of the vortex manipulator, does it say anywhere that it is the same one? She is in prison remember, it is possible she had one which was lost/confiscated.[[User:Geek Mythology|Geek Mythology]] 09:13, June 6, 2011 (UTC)
::I think you are wrong about the TV episodes being in perfect reverse order. For one, Dalarium is going to have to be out of order, whenever that happens, but there are other important points too. e.g. She doesn't appear to know Rory at the time of the Pandorica (calling him the centurian).
::
::There is a general trend of reverse order, but it is not perfect.
::
::All you have to hang your hat on is her comments during the Silence in America event. It is not clear on the all-important facts that she was speaking in a very scientific sense. It find it much more likely that she was just talking in a general sense.[[User:JoelJoel321|JoelJoel321]] 09:56, June 6, 2011 (UTC)
::
::With regard to the Singing Towers, I agree that it will probably take the form of something similar to Ten going to see his companions before regeneration. A ten minute piece at the end of a significant River episode. (With flashbacks to the Library for the Doctor, to remind the less astute viewer about what his happening!)
 
:::We still don't know if we are going to see Darilium, and if we are, like you said, it is a massive event. '''If''' we do get to see it, I'm guessing the significant River episode will be the last River episode, perhaps River's first proper adventure with the Doctor (he knows there will be no more, and so goes to say good bye), and so won't necessarily follow the rules (but the bulk of the episode would). As for the episodes we have seen '''so far''', each one gives hints to the episodes before after it. At the end of America, the Doctor says call me, at the beginning of Pandorica, she says he didn't answer his phone. At the Byzantium, River tells the doctor the next time he will see her is the Pandorica. She also says she may be granted a pardon, and couldn't stand going back to Prison. At the Library, prison is not mentioned at all. From this, we can assume America is before Pandorica, which is before Byzantium, which is before The Library. As for not recgonising Rory, she most likely would have, but not shown it, so as to avoid Spoilers.
 
:::Please remember that I am only talking about events we have seen so far. When talking about things we may or may not know/see in the future, I am making educated guesses, based on what I already know. It's not an exact science I agree, but for me, this is what the available evidence suggests. [[User:Geek Mythology|Geek Mythology]] 10:22, June 6, 2011 (UTC)
 
== Locking page on River Song ==
 
Shouldn't the River Song page be locked after episode seven has been transmitted? We wouldn't want to spoil the real identity of River Song for those countries that wouldn't of had the episode transmitted.
 
:In a word, no. It will be weeks before it is broadcast in every country that is broadcasting Series 6, and who knows how long in the countries that aren't. The page has a spoiler warning, it's up to individuals to decide whether they run the risk or not.
 
:Also, don't forget to sign your posts, like this;
 
:[[User:Geek Mythology|Geek Mythology]] 13:12, June 3, 2011 (UTC)
 
== Intro text ==
 
Is it me or is the intro text, before the biography, a bit long winded? I tried to change it, but the page was obviously locked before I finished. My proposed revision is:
 
'''River Song''', (born '''Melody Pond'''), earlier a doctor and eventually a professor, was a mysterious [[archaeologist]]. She was also a convicted [[murder]]er who shared a close relationship with [[the Doctor]]. Significantly, she knew the Doctor's true name, which he would tell her at some point in his future. She would often greet him by saying "Hello, sweetie", whether in message or in person. Eventually it was revealed that she was the daughter of [[Amy Pond]] and [[Rory Williams]].
 
Although the [[Tenth Doctor]]'s [[Silence in the Library|first meeting]] with her ended in her physical death, they had many adventures, from the Doctor's perspective, afterwards. Like [[Melanie Bush]] and [[Charley Pollard]] before her, she was an example of the rare companion whose timeline was not synchronous with that of the Doctor.
 
If anyone has any comments?
[[User:Geek Mythology|Geek Mythology]] 19:17, June 4, 2011 (UTC)
 
==Hey!==
I wrote an article on this page for the episode 'A Good Man Goes To War', and it has been cut down way too much, and whoever did it can't even spell Pond! And now, I can't change it back because the page is locked!
 
If anyone would be so kind as to put it back, here is the copy I saved:
====Demon's Run====
 
After the realisation that Amy and Rory's baby, Melody, was a Flesh avatar, River appeared in front of them at Demon's Run. The Doctor angrily questioned her as to why she couldn't have come sooner to help. She said that she could only be there for the last moment. Whilst they both admired the Doctor's old cradle, he realised who she was, and suddenly ran off in the TARDIS to rescue Melody. River walked over to Amy and Rory with the patchwork gift with Melody's name stitched on it. When the language on it translated in Amy and Rory's minds, it read 'River Song'. River said that the Forest people have no translation for Melody Pond, hence 'the only water in the Forest is the River'. River Song is Melody Pond; Amy and Rory's daughter.
 
Thanks
 
SophiaDena13 19:18, June 4, 2011 (UTC)
 
This needs to be in past tense before it can be added to the page, I would do it myself but I've got alot going on with the page at the moment. --[[User:Revanvolatrelundar|Revan]]\[[User_talk:Revanvolatrelundar|Talk]] 19:21, June 4, 2011 (UTC)
 
Okay, I'll change it now for you.
 
SophiaDena13 19:26, June 4, 2011 (UTC)
 
:Don't forget these two events, talking with Rory, and turning up at Demon's Run would occur in the reverse order for River.
 
Should be more like this:
 
::River travelled to [[Demon's Run]], and enountered Amy, Rory, and the Doctor just after their realisation that their baby, Melody, was a [[The Flesh|Flesh]] avatar. The Doctor angrily questioned her as to why she couldn't have come sooner to help, replying that she could only be there for the last moment. Whilst they both admired the Doctor's old cradle, he realised who she was, and suddenly ran off in the [[TARDIS]]. River walked over to Amy and Rory with the patchwork gift with Melody's name stitched on it. When the language on it translated in Amy and Rory's minds, it read 'River Song'. River said that the Forest people have no translation for Melody Pond, hence 'the only water in the Forest is the River'. River Song is Melody Pond; Amy and Rory's daughter.
 
::At some point later, upon her return to the [[Stormcage]] from [[1814]], having celebrated her birthday at the last [[Winter Festival of the Thames]] with the Doctor and [[Stevie Wonder]], River encountered Rory in a Roman uniform. When he asked for her to come to their aid at Demon's Run, she said that she couldn't; she could only be there for the 'final moment'. After she locked herself back into her cell, she said to Rory that "this is the day [the Doctor] finds out who [she is]".
 
[[User:Geek Mythology|Geek Mythology]] 20:51, June 4, 2011 (UTC)
 
I have placed a summary of that on the page (now in the correct order thanks to Geek Mythology). The things is that we don't need to report on everything River did as that better fits the plot section of story articles and it just serves to make character articles overcrowded if we do. --[[User:Revanvolatrelundar|Revan]]\[[User_talk:Revanvolatrelundar|Talk]] 20:56, June 4, 2011 (UTC)
 
:::Can I make another (sorry!) suggestion? I appreciate not wanting it too long, but "At the end of the battle of Demon's Run, River appeared in front of them at Demon's Run" still seems like it could be worded better. How does this sound?
 
River travelled to meet the Doctor, Amy, and Rory at the end of the battle of [[Demon's Run]]. It was here that she revealed her true identity to them, reassuring them that their daughter would be safe.
 
Upon her return to the Stormcage after spending a birthday with the Doctor and [[Stevie Wonder]] in [[1814]], River encountered Rory in a Roman uniform. When he asked for her to come to their aid at Demon's Run, she refused as she could only be there for the "final moment". ([[DW]]:''[[A Good Man Goes to War]]'')
[[User:Geek Mythology|Geek Mythology]] 21:25, June 4, 2011 (UTC)
 
== The Father ==
 
It was never really confirmed that Rory Williams was the father, and also if River/Melody is part time lord how can that be possible we can't put Rory as the father yet. [[User:The mysterious|The mysterious]] 20:08, June 4, 2011 (UTC)
:It was confirmed in the episode that Rory was the father and that she is part Time Lord as Amy had been so close to the time vortex for ages. Please watch the episode before making these remarks. [[Special:Contributions/92.20.173.123|92.20.173.123]] 20:10, June 4, 2011 (UTC)
:It was because River was concieved while the TARDIS travelled through the Time Vortex. Plus as noted above, Rory was called the father by the Doctor. --[[User:Revanvolatrelundar|Revan]]\[[User_talk:Revanvolatrelundar|Talk]] 20:12, June 4, 2011 (UTC)
::In case that still isn't good enough for you: [http://www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/dw/characters/River_Song here's more proof]. [[Special:Contributions/92.20.173.123|92.20.173.123]] 20:43, June 4, 2011 (UTC)
:::Sorry for that, The Little Girl/Melody Pond/River Song regenerated so that means the time vortex created a part-time lord who can probably fully regenerate. --[[User:The mysterious|The mysterious]] 21:28, June 4, 2011 (UTC)
 
== Little girl? ==
I don't think the little girl in the astronaut suit from [[Day of the Moon]] should be included in this article, as we do not know for sure that it is her[[User:Lord Aro|Lord Aro]] 20:23, June 4, 2011 (UTC)
:Completely agreed. Nothing says that the little girl is River. For all we know the little girl is River and the Doctor's child, hence why she's seen that cot before... and why he then knew they would be kissing. Nothing at all says that River is the child, or that Madam Kovarian was working with the Silence. --[[User:The Thirteenth Doctor|The Thirteenth Doctor]] 20:38, June 4, 2011 (UTC)
::The flashback where the Doctor was piecing things together stated that the girl was River, well Melody it was at the time. --[[User:Revanvolatrelundar|Revan]]\[[User_talk:Revanvolatrelundar|Talk]] 20:39, June 4, 2011 (UTC)
:::But that's the thing... we don't know it is. All we know is that the little girl is part Time Lord... not that she is definitely River... we're still presuming that the little girl ''is'' Melody... --[[User:The Thirteenth Doctor|The Thirteenth Doctor]] 21:42, June 4, 2011 (UTC)
::::In that case any mention of the he little girl should be removed as it is just speculation until confirmed otherwise - we should only be detailing the confirmed facts.[[Special:Contributions/95.145.220.97|95.145.220.97]] 00:11, June 5, 2011 (UTC)
::::
::::Would someone mind explaining the fact that in the little girl's room, among pictures of her, was a picture of Amy holding Melody/River? Because it's her. Would anyone also mind explaining why whenever discussing Melody, there were flashbacks to the little girl? What about the reference to Melody/River being able to possibly regenerate? Or how it was stated that the little girl was a human, and yet we saw her regenerate? Human plus Time Lord. For crying out loud, the little girl is Melody/River, how more obvious could it get? Why, among there her pictures, would she have a picture of Amy holding Melody/River? Why flashback to the girl when talking about Melody/River? Some people are so stubborn. [[Special:Contributions/90.199.247.156|90.199.247.156]] 03:45, June 5, 2011 (UTC)
 
:::::I've got a picture of my grandmother holding my father as a baby. Does that actually mean my grandmother is actually my mother? I don't think so. Why were the flashbacks related to her? Because that's what the Doctor was ''thinking''... not what was true... and like the Doctor said.... it's ''possible'' she could regenerate... not ''definite''. It's entirely possible that the little girl is the Doctor and River's child... nothing has been concretely said that it is her. If you can just go with the implication that the little girl is River... I want it also stated on the page that the Doctor and River are lovers... cause that's been implied as well. --[[User:The Thirteenth Doctor|The Thirteenth Doctor]] 12:12, June 5, 2011 (UTC)
:::::::I totally agree that the little girl is Melody/River. It would be absurd for her not to be. It is true that some are stubborn. Perhaps there is some merit in being "sure of the facts" but I think we are as sure as we can be. In the event that a blinder is pulled, the facts can always been changed. Perhaps a solution would be to say that '''it very much appears '''to be the case that the little girl is River, for the reasons explained by the person two paragrapshs above me. But we all know the internet...
:::::::: Just because when The Doctor was piecing together little bits of information regarding Melody and thinking about the little girl does not make them the same person - its just where his mind and ours have gone, due to all the facts that are available - you have to remember, The Doctor doesn't the little girl regenerated only the homeless man knows that - and he wont know for sure what was going on. The question was "could she regenrated" the doctor thought and replied "maybe" I dont see that as confirmation that they are the same! Those flash backs were for our, the viewers interests, probably to make us think the little girl is indeed River. Is she, well who knows? So far we are led to beleive so, but until we have confirmation we can't be sure - who knows - the the little girl could be a child of Rivers and the Doctors - its not uncommon for there to be pictures of a grandparent holding a grand child - and we have as much fact to say this is the case too! Also, did anyone watch confidential? Im fairly sure that Moffat mentioned something in the episode about "who is the little girl?" this makes me think there might be more to it that "she is a younger River Song" - but hey who knows? just be patient guys - if you are indeed right, it will get put in [[Special:Contributions/95.145.221.134|95.145.221.134]] 01:53, June 6, 2011 (UTC)
::::::
::::::
 
== Asgard ==
 
 
When River says that Asgard was early, she means early ''for the Doctor'', we still don't know when River experienced it, and so should not be described as early in her biography. [[User:Geek Mythology|Geek Mythology]] 20:42, June 4, 2011 (UTC)
 
Gah, I'm really rushed off my feet with this stuff, your right. By the Impossible Astronaught we should be placing it towards the end of her life. This is the best we can place it. --[[User:Revanvolatrelundar|Revan]]\[[User_talk:Revanvolatrelundar|Talk]] 20:44, June 4, 2011 (UTC)
 
Sorry, don't mean to rush you. I understand why this page is locked, and no hurry, just trying to use the talk page to be helpful, so that the article itself is as best it can be when it's unlocked. [[User:Geek Mythology|Geek Mythology]] 20:57, June 4, 2011 (UTC)
 
It's no trouble, you've been really helpful in getting this page organised as it should be, thanks again. --[[User:Revanvolatrelundar|Revan]]\[[User_talk:Revanvolatrelundar|Talk]] 20:59, June 4, 2011 (UTC)
 
== How could she Have died? ==
 
If she's a time lord how did she die in her first apperance. [[Special:Contributions/173.51.78.230|173.51.78.230]] 00:00, June 5, 2011 (UTC)
 
1) she isn't a time lord, she just has sometimelords dna in her
 
2) Time lords aren't insestrucable or incapapble of death, she even said the event would kill a time lord,
 
:Besides she forcibly took the Doctor's place so she was worried enough it would have killed him, a true time lord.
:
:Grey Beret: Maybe she was in her 13th incarnation, meaning she would die.
 
== Death and the lady ==
 
If we pick all the clues from Silence in the library (was that a hint towards the Silence? I am still not convienced we've seen the last of them or the flesh, because 'even' the Doctor knew something about the flesh) and the Impossible Astronaut, then either River Song didn't kill the Doctor and was falsely convicted.
 
One particular scene: After the Doctors supposed death in the Impossible Astronaut Song (as this is her translated first name) tries to shoot the murderer, right?
 
Why would she shoot herself? And when - in her timeline - did she shoot the "good man"?
 
 
 
: Good questions! Three answers spring to my mind.
 
: 1) It's not River in the space suit.
 
: 2) It was River in the space suit, but the elder River did not know. Memory wiped?
 
: 3) The elder River was shooting but aiming to miss the spacesuit - 'for effect'. i.e. just faking it to make it look like she was taking action. After all - she doesn't normally miss - she is a rather good shot!
 
: 4) Tied to the above, she knew that she had to shoot the suit, because she remembered it happening that way in the past. (Timey wimey).[[User:JoelJoel321|JoelJoel321]] 15:40, June 6, 2011 (UTC)
 
==Sydney Wade==
 
It's not yet definitely confirmed that the Little Girl is River. Sydney Wade should be removed from the infobox. - [[User:Sikon|Sikon]] 07:26, June 5, 2011 (UTC)
 
Done----<u>[[User:Skittles the hog|Skittles the hog]]--<small>[[User talk:Skittles the hog|Talk]]</small></u> 10:41, June 5, 2011 (UTC)
 
The little girl is obviously her! The Doctor SAID it! The little girl REGENERATED! MELODY WAS A TIME LORD! Jeez. - [[User:BillyWilliam3rd]] 20:12, June 5, 2011 (UTC)
 
Maybe. Another hypothesis is that she is the daughter of the Doctor and River -- River was nauseated during THE IMPOSSIBLE ASTRONAUT. Speculation is one thing, but proof is another. [[User:Boblipton|Boblipton]] 11:19, June 6, 2011 (UTC)
 
== The Heading of the River Song article should be called "Melody Pond/ River Song" ==
 
Also in the article there should be more information on how River is a future incarnation of Melody and how she is the daughter of Rory and Amy.
*In the same way that Donna Noble is listed under [[Donna Temple-Noble]], Melody Pond's article would go under her last known name, [[River Song]]. [[User:Witoki|Witoki]] 22:49, June 5, 2011 (UTC)
 
== Main Picture ==
 
I think this photo is better as the main picture. --->
 
[[User:DuduDoctor|DuduDoctor]] 10:22, June 5, 2011 (UTC)[[File:Vlcsnap-2011-06-05-13h18m21s212.png|thumb]]
 
Done----<u>[[User:Skittles the hog|Skittles the hog]]--<small>[[User talk:Skittles the hog|Talk]]</small></u> 10:41, June 5, 2011 (UTC)
 
== A Missing Meeting - The Last Frost Fair ==
 
Hi, we need a point her timeline labelled ''''The Last Frost Fair''''. As per her conversation with Rory at the start of A Good Man Goes to War. She went with the Doctor to London in 1824, and went ice skating, and Stevie Wonder played for them. This comes directly before Demon's Run in her timeline. It was not on screen - but then, neither have been Asgard or Dalarium yet, and they are on the list of meeting! [[User:JoelJoel321|JoelJoel321]] 21:46, June 5, 2011 (UTC)
 
:It has been mentioned, (Upon her return to the Stormcage after spending a birthday with the Doctor and Stevie Wonder in 1814), and as this is pretty much all we know about this adventure anyway, there's no point giving it it's own heading.
 
:Was it 1824? I thought it was 1814 . . . can anyone give a deciding vote?[[User:Geek Mythology|Geek Mythology]] 09:24, June 6, 2011 (UTC)
::Yes, it has been mentioned... in the same way that Asgard and Dalarium have been mentioned. Those other two meetings are both on the page. In fact, we know about as much as we do about Dalarium as we do about the Frost Fair. We know even less about Asgard. So should this meeting! There is no reason why not to do so.
::
::
::It adds completeness. What if somebody wanted to check up on that piece of information? This is a wiki after all!
::
::
::By the way, you are quite right it was 1814, I've just watched the clip of the episode.[[User:JoelJoel321|JoelJoel321]] 10:11, June 6, 2011 (UTC)
 
:::The way I see it, Asgard and Darilium have no other context in terms of on screen adventures. We don't know when Asgard occured, so it has it's own section. We don't know exactly when Darilium occured, plus it was also a big event, so it has it's own section. We know when the fair occured for River, just prior to meeting with Rory about Demon's Run. It is therefore included in this section. Also, giving it it's own section would seperate the two Demon's Run sections. That's my opinion anyway, but since it's locked we'll have to wait and see what the admin think about it . . . [[User:Geek Mythology|Geek Mythology]] 10:30, June 6, 2011 (UTC)
::::Well if the information is there under Demon's Run, fair enough. By the way, have you seen my post below? What do you say to my suggestion that Demon's Run should be posted twice. Once for baby Melody, and once for the elder River? We don't have any other events to separate them at the moment (other than the Frost Fair) so they would be next to each other in the list, but will be spaced apart by later adventures. (As an aside I happen to think that Demon's Run occurs after the Crash at the Byzantium in River's timestream, so should be much later anyway, but that's another issue). JoelJoel321
::::[[Special:Contributions/90.208.46.187|90.208.46.187]] 15:07, June 6, 2011 (UTC)
 
== The FIRST Demons Run Meeting ==
 
 
 
<p style="border-top-width: 0px; border-right-width: 0px; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-left-width: 0px; border-style: initial; border-color: initial; font-style: inherit; font-weight: inherit; margin-top: 0.4em; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;">A post in the River timeline should be added for River's first EVER meeting with the Doctor. i.e. She met him at Demon's Run, as a baby. (Albeit she met him whilst she was present as a baby Ganger). The Doctor even claimed that they spoke, (though he may have been joking). Since this is their first ever meeting - it really ought to be in the timeline! [[User:JoelJoel321|JoelJoel321]] 21:47, June 5, 2011 (UTC)</p>
 
== Human Plus ==
 
We know that biologically speaking, River is essentially [[human]]. What's more, they seem to suggest that Melody was not a proper [[Time Lady]], but rather she was born with the ability to [[regenerate]]. I would suggest removing Time Lady from her species information and either leaving her as just human, or creating a new article for the species "Human Plus". [[User:Witoki|Witoki]] 22:50, June 5, 2011 (UTC)
 
<p style="margin-left: 40px">I agree! We dont actually know she has the ability to regenrate - the episode didnt confirm she could regenerate, just that it was possible. The episode then showed the little girl regenerating, however thats not what the Doctor was thinking at the time as he doesnt know that actually happened [[Special:Contributions/80.193.71.144|80.193.71.144]] 10:06, June 6, 2011 (UTC)</p>
:: In fact, until we have confirmation that River is the Little Girl from TIA/DooM, there's no reason to list "Time Lady" at all. [[User:Witoki|Witoki]] 17:54, June 6, 2011 (UTC)
::: We shouldn't just ignore the Time Lady part, we need to add: human (with some Time Lord DNA) or similar. --[[User:Revanvolatrelundar|Revan]]\[[User_talk:Revanvolatrelundar|Talk]] 18:02, June 6, 2011 (UTC)
:::: But it isn't Time Lord DNA, it's vortex-altered Human DNA (hence the "Human Plus" term). [[User:Witoki|Witoki]] 18:05, June 6, 2011 (UTC)
 
== Why is it locked? ==
 
See heading. Is the situation really so bad that all edits are blocked? All I wanted to do was clean up the intro, replacing "it was eventually revealed that..." with something more in-universe. Wouldn't protecting be enough?--[[User:The Traveller|The Traveller]] 10:09, June 6, 2011 (UTC)
 
It was protected before and was the victim of vandalism and speculation edits. The lock will be on the page until next saturday, in the meantime please write your edits here and we will place them into the article. --[[User:Revanvolatrelundar|Revan]]\[[User_talk:Revanvolatrelundar|Talk]] 12:20, June 6, 2011 (UTC)
 
== Behind the scenes ==
 
"Except for flashbacks and A Good Man Goes to War, River Song has only been used in two-part stories, all of which were written by Steven Moffat."
 
Uh, isn't AGMGtW part one of a two-parter (the second half being "Let's kill Hitler"). [[User:Ose|Ose]]<sup>[[User talk:Ose|t]]&bull;[[Special:Contributions/Ose|c]]</sup> 14:15, June 6, 2011 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 10:23, 14 October 2021

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Revisiting the split pages decision[[edit source]]

Almost ten years ago, it was decided that River incarnations were to be all merged under a single page. However, more recent decision led me to propose we split the River pages again into new incarnations. They are as follow:

  • Put simply, River Song is a name that applies only to her third incarnation. It's as wrong to call the baby Amy gave birth to, or the young girl that was Amy and Rory's childhood friend "River Song" than it would be to call the incarnation of the Doctor who fought in the Time War by "Twelfth Doctor", "the Curator" or "War Curator", even though these are all names used by future versions of him. In fact, this was one of the reasons I argued so hard that the Eleven's incarnations absolutely could not have a single page a few years ago. The same surely applies to River.
  • As has been done with several Time Lords recently, splitting their incarnations into a single page allows better coverage and readability.
  • Naming the majority of pages regarding this character would be extremely easy (something which was argued otherwise in the original discussion). It's very explicit that River/Melody had three incarnations:
    • From birth to the little girl from The Impossible Astronaut we see regenerating on the streets of New York
    • Mels Zucker, who grew up alongside her parents
    • River Song her third and final incarnation
  • Now, that only leaves the problem of whether to use "Melody Pond" to her first incarnation or the overall page. As Mels also uses the name on her deathbed, and River Song also uses her real name on A Good Man Goes to War (TV story) to reveal her true identity, I'd vote for keeping Melody Pond for the overall page, while using "little girl" for the first incarnation (as she was credited as such).
  • Mind you, it wouldn't be the first time we use credits/conjectural names for a Time Lord splitting, as per Renegade Time Lord (The Eleven). And, like that page, the bad term also happens to describe the exact subject we're talking about, as River/Melody was also the Impossible Astronaut.

As always, feel free to make any further suggestions and/or edit my sandbox pages. OncomingStorm12th ☎ 16:52, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

I am in support of this split. I agree that Melody Pond should go to the overall page as it was used by all incarnations to a degree. Bongo50 (aka Bongolium500) ☎ 18:52, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
I don't have a problem with the split, and I agree that Melody Pond would be best for the overall page name. LauraBatham ☎ 07:47, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
I also think this is a good idea, but why not use Melody Pond for both the main page and her first incarnation? "Little girl" will have to be dabbed anyway, so why not use Melody Pond (The Impossible Astronaut) instead? Danochy ☎ 12:39, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
I think 'Little Girl' is better for the incarnations navigation template. It accords both with the credits of the episode, with dialogue to an extent (the characters do call her "the Little Girl" for lack of a better term at some points in the script of The Impossible Astronaut/Day of the Moon), and with how non-Wiki-editing fans would usually speak of her if discussing River's incarnations. Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 12:50, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
With the template, sure, but templates needn't use just page names. The name "Melody Pond" is more accurate than "little girl" in that regard, especially in light of her other appearance (albeit as a Flesh clone for most(?) of her on-screen time) where her identity as Melody is quite important. Also I just realised that her first appearance is actually Prequel (The Impossible Astronaut) which rather throws a spanner in the works for that dabbing. Danochy ☎ 13:05, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
When I was thinking on how to title the first incarnation page, I cycled through [[Little girl (The Impossible Astronaut)]], [[Melody Pond (The Impossible Astronaut)]] and [[Melody Pond's first incarnation]], but went with the former because it was the only one of these to already exist. In all honesty, I'm happy with either options.
As for the technicality of Prequel (The Impossible Astronaut).... yeah, it's not optimal. Using DPL, the only match for a page dabbed with a prequel is Silent (Prequel (The Impossible Astronaut)), so we could go with [[Little girl (Prequel (The Impossible Astronaut))]] or [[Melody Pond (Prequel (The Impossible Astronaut))]], but I half-think we "overlook" this mistake, in order to achieve a simpler dab and avoid the double parenthesis. OncomingStorm12th ☎ 22:20, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
Of course Melody Pond's first incarnation is a good option if we want to avoid the dabbing dilemma. But otherwise I'm also happy to overlook the prequel or to otherwise consider it a part of the TV story for the purposes of dabbing the character. Danochy ☎ 23:08, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
Okay, hold the phone, where exactly did we get Prequel (The Impossible Astronaut) from anyway? On the BBC website this is called The Prequel to Episode 1. That title's not going to win any awards, but we do have precedents for using such "functional" titles like we would normal titles, such as The Novel of the Film, so… why don't we call this thing The Prequel to Episode 1 (webcast)? Granted I'm not thrilled about the prospect of Little girl (The Prequel to Episode 1) but it wouldn't have any double-parentheses.
But… We also need to discuss the option of the Little Girl. There are other "little girls" in the DWU, but she is the only one whom the Doctor & friends referred to, for several months, over the course of The Impossible Astronaut/Day of the Moon, as the Little Girl. Interestingly, the adult River Song herself uses "the Little Girl" several times in dialogue in Day of the Moon, which is interesting if we want to talk self-identification…
Now granted, "The Little Girl" isn't intended to be, or presented as, a "the" name in quite the same way as "The Doctor" or even "The Editor — but I would point to The Woman (Hell Bent) and The Woman (The End of Time) as precedents for using the credited "the Something" descriptor as a page name even though it's unlikely the characters would introduce themselves with "Hello, I'm usually referred to as the Woman". Also, the way we titled our page about Tzim-Sha "Tim Shaw" for quite some time, for as long as we lacked certainty on the spelling of "Tzim-Sha", is precedent for the idea that when the other potential names are unviable,- we do sometimes use the name Team TARDIS give an entity, even if we have reason to suspect the entity called itself something else. Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 23:26, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
I would much rather the prequel name stay as it is, to be honest, and just bend the first appearance dabbing rule (if we were to go down that road). There are a lot of "episode 1"s, making the searchability pretty poor. Though we could always name it "Prequel to The Impossible Astronaut", such as it is on imdb. LauraBatham ☎ 02:07, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
I think that the Prequel(s) current name(s) just come from a lack of title cards, and if they're Prequels to release X, instinctively they're titled [[Prequel (release X)]] (that's certainly what I did when creating a few of the recent Big Finish ones)
Now, as for using The Little Girl as a title... well, as you pointed you it could work, as precedent exists, but I think that works well enough in the lack of any other names. Like, if it was a random unnamed Time Lord Little Girl we saw regenerating, and then later in a spacesuit etc, I'd 100% agree with you. But as soon as we learn that Little Girl is actually Melody Pond/River as a little girl (sans capital letters), I personally think the argument looses strength a bit. Right now, I'm leaning either for Little girl (The Impossible Astronaut) (no capital letters), or Melody Pond's first incarnation, to circumvent the dabbing issues. OncomingStorm12th ☎ 02:23, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
Well not this is a coincidence if I ever saw one. Big Finish has recently released a webcast (The Story of the Diary of River Song) which recaps a lot of River's adventures and her timeline and, little do we know, they mention both of their previous incarnations. Aside from referring the River by her birth name of Melody Pond, River herself calls her second incarnation Mels Zucker (the full name), while her first incarnation is called (guess what) little girl.
Now, I'll not give any rulings, given I was the one to start the discussion, but this serves as a quite nice food for thought, and a bump in the talk page as well. OncomingStorm12th ☎ 16:41, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
I now notice that a few days ago, User:SOTO standardised prequel naming via bot, so now we have Prequel to The Impossible Astronaut (webcast) instead of the clunky Prequel (The Impossible Astronaut. That means that we can now safely and unambiguously have the "First Melody" at Melody Pond (Prequel to The Impossible Astronaut), and more generally:
Is this approach agreeable for everyone? OncomingStorm12th ☎ 21:46, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
I'm fine with that. LauraBatham ☎ 21:52, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
Agreed. I think we can move forward with this. Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 10:23, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
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