Talk:Susan Foreman: Difference between revisions

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I changed the information about Alex having two hearts. I've just listened to Earthly Child and Susan states quite clearly that he only has one heart. It can be found in track 13. Hope it was okay to change this.
[[User:EIG|EIG]] 19:41, February 16, 2011 (UTC)


that picture is a still from an episode, right? which one?
{{ArchCat}}


--I think this article needs a new image as she looks quite different there to any on-sceen appearance I've seen. He whole demeanour is...To mature? It seems like a publicity photo from possibly the pilot. I might be way off the mark, but I still think it needs to be changed. [[User:Taccer 07|Taccer 07]] 22:42, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
==Relationship to Jenny==
This article states that Jenny must be Susan's aunt. It forgets the possibility that Jenny is Susan's mother. [[Special:Contributions/96.45.196.227|96.45.196.227]] 20:45, May 10, 2010 (UTC)
 
:But then wouldn't the Doctor have known about Jenny beforehand? If I remembered the episode clearly, he was fairly surprised about Jenny.[[Special:Contributions/98.220.223.197|98.220.223.197]] 14:10, May 15, 2010 (UTC)
::Well, of course, strictly, unless Jenny is actually Susan's mother, she would only be Susan's ''half''-aunt. Best for the article to say that the relationship between Jenny and Susan was simply unknown. '''[[User:CzechOut|<span style="background:blue;color:white">Czech</span><span style="background:red;color:white">Out</span>]]''' [[User talk:CzechOut|☎]] | [[Special:Contributions/CzechOut|<font size="+1">✍</font>]] 15:22, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
 
:::Uh, at what point in Doctor's Daughter is it ever even implied that Jenny is Susan's mother? Are we getting fanon mixed up with canon again? All we know is Jenny is the Doctor's offspring. Ergo that makes her Susan's aunt by any legal definition. [[Special:Contributions/68.146.81.123|68.146.81.123]] 03:11, May 25, 2010 (UTC)


Seriously, what am I looking at here, is she hiding in a pile of junk?
::::There's really no such thing as a "half-aunt". I have a half-brother and a half-sister, and to all of their kids I'm simply their aunt. The three of us share a parent, that's as far as it needs to go. [[User:Wannablessedbe|wannablessedbe]] <sup>[[User talk:Wannablessedbe|talk to me]]</sup> 11:19, February 15, 2012 (UTC)


We know that 'Foreman' isn't really Susan's last name, so should we be listing her as [[Susan Foreman]] or just [[Susan]]?
== Note at top of the page ==
--[[User:Mantrid|Mantrid]] 18:19, 12 Jul 2005 (UTC)


*The reason I'd chosen to list as Susan Foreman was that she was, initially, referred to as such within the programme - as that was how she was known at School. It does seem to be the commonly used name for Susan in reference materials, but if others feel that 'Foreman' should be dropped then this can, by all means, be altered. [[User:Kazzab72|Kazzab72]] 09:04, 28 Jul 2005 (UTC)
As the [[Tardis:Canon policy|canon policy]] has been completely rewritten and its under-construction "successor" [[Tardis:Valid sources]] hasn't mentioned the pilot, what's a better way of phrasing why we don't include images of [[The Pilot Episode]]? -- [[User:Tybort|Tybort]] ([[User talk:Tybort|talk page]]) 11:10, July 7, 2012 (UTC)


**Just "Susan" can refer to other characters and is more ambiguous. Better keep it as Susan Foreman to distinguish it from others.
== Larna ==


I've edited the quotes section as it looked cluttered. Any opinions, suggestions etc.?
This links to the [[Larna]] article - but is that the same as "Lady Larna" ? -- [[User:Beardouk|Beardouk]] [[User talk:Beardouk|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 21:12, July 19, 2012 (UTC)
--[[User:GingerM|GingerM]] 15:45, 3 Oct 2005 (UTC)
:Good point. [[Larna]] needs editing in light of [[Forum:Is The Infinity Doctors canon?]] anyway. I'll try to take care of that in the next day or two, and when I do I'll add a note about Susan as the "Lady Larna" in ''[[Birth of a Renegade (short story)|Birth of a Renegade]]''. —[[User:Josiah Rowe|Josiah Rowe]] [[User talk:Josiah Rowe|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 03:51, August 10, 2012 (UTC)
::Upon checking ''Birth of a Renegade'', it turns out that the name given to Susan there is "Lady Larn", not "Larna" at all. Which tidies things up a bit. —[[User:Josiah Rowe|Josiah Rowe]] [[User talk:Josiah Rowe|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 05:17, August 15, 2012 (UTC)


Maybe her full name is Susan the Foreman (you know the Doctor ,The Foreman)
== Arkytior? ==


==Campbell last name==
Is the "original" name of Arkytior actually canon?  I know some books have tried to give the master's name, but it is not accepted as cannon.  Shouldn't this be treated the same way?  I recommend removing that name as fact and only listing it as a possibility that has not been confirmed.  [[User:Whosethebestwho|Whosethebestwho]] [[User talk:Whosethebestwho|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 10:13, January 21, 2013 (UTC)
I'm not familiar with the novels and audio dramas mentioned. Do any of them confirm that Susan did indeed take the last name Campbell (and indeed married David)? See [[Gwen Cooper]] for an example of a female character who kept her maiden name after marriage, for example. If any of the non-TV sources confirm this, then never mind. If not it might be an assumption that needs to be removed. [[User:23skidoo|23skidoo]] 03:33, January 24, 2010 (UTC)


Not to mention the fact that some people don't count novels/audio dramas as being canon, as many of them are contradictory or ambiguous [[Special:Contributions/81.135.117.170|81.135.117.170]] 08:15, September 1, 2011 (UTC)
This wiki does not deal with "canon" as a concept, and all sources are treated with equal weight. Therefore to this wikia, Arktior is regarded as a possible name for Susan, along with Lady Larn. --[[User:Revanvolatrelundar|Revan]]\[[User_talk:Revanvolatrelundar|Talk]] 12:49, January 21, 2013 (UTC)


==The Return?==
Seriously???  When did that change? I've been away a while.  You all really don't care about canon here?  So I can publish a Doctor Who book, make any wild claims and it will be treated as gospel here?  That doesn't seem right.  [[User:Whosethebestwho|Whosethebestwho]] [[User talk:Whosethebestwho|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 02:00, January 22, 2013 (UTC)
Have there ever been a sign that he has planed to go back for her?--[[User:Rutilus saeta passer|Rutilus saeta passer]] 09:56, January 26, 2010 (UTC)
:Unfortunately you've misunderstood Revan's comment about canon. The idea is not that the wiki doesn't care about canon, it's that all stories (under certain guidelines) count, and therefore the name Arkytior is accepted in the article. For a better description than I could give, check out [[Tardis:Canon policy]], [[Tardis:Valid sources]], and [[Tardis:Neutral point of view]] (especially the in-universe section), all of which should be helpful. [[User:Shambala108|Shambala108]] [[User talk:Shambala108|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 02:20, January 22, 2013 (UTC)
::I appreciate the info.  This place has changed.  I'll keep all that in mind in the future.  [[User:Whosethebestwho|Whosethebestwho]] [[User talk:Whosethebestwho|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 05:10, January 22, 2013 (UTC)
:::It's not really a change. I've been here on and off since very close to the wiki's inception, and we've always been inclusive of officially licensed ''Doctor Who'' in all media. Things have become a bit more formalized lately, but the principles have always been the same here. TV, novels, audios, comics, short stories: it all "counts", or nearly all. (A few things are excluded, by discussion-based consensus.) But we try to treat it all the same. —[[User:Josiah Rowe|Josiah Rowe]] [[User talk:Josiah Rowe|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 05:24, January 22, 2013 (UTC)
:::I beg to differ, Josiah.  It used to be that books, comics, et al, were not given the same weight as the TV shows.  To use the example of the Master, his page used to show that he was given a name in one of the books, but that it was not known if that was truly his name or not.  Now said name is being listed on his page as gospel truth, even though it is still questionable.  That, coupled with the entry on Susan's page show a mared shift.  Namely, that books are being given equal, if not greater weight, than the TV shows.  That is a change in this wiki.  As I mentioned above, I had been away for a while, so I was not aware of the shift.  Shambala was kind enough to point me to the documents, and I will keep the information in mind.  [[User:Whosethebestwho|Whosethebestwho]] [[User talk:Whosethebestwho|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 05:44, January 22, 2013 (UTC)


Non have been anounced yet, but their is nothing stopping her coming back, after all she is a time lady, so being played by a differnt actress isn't a problem and since we last saw her on earth in the early 21st century she might not have been in the time war.---General MGD 109 4:32, january 26, 2010
== The Name of the Doctor ==


Who played Susan during the Gallifrey scene when they steal the TARDIS? -- [[Special:Contributions/65.94.76.126|65.94.76.126]]<sup>[[User talk:65.94.76.126#top|talk to me]]</sup> 14:03, May 21, 2013 (UTC)


==Relationship to Jenny==
*Herself, or more specif Carole Ann Ford; it's archive footage from the [[TV]]: [[The Aztecs (TV story)|Aztecs]]
This article states that Jenny must be Susan's aunt. It forgets the possibility that Jenny is Susan's mother. [[Special:Contributions/96.45.196.227|96.45.196.227]] 20:45, May 10, 2010 (UTC)
[[User:Sabovia|Sabovia]] [[User talk:Sabovia|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 00:33, July 5, 2013 (UTC)
 
=="An Adventure in Space and Time"==
What's wrong with adding the actor from the docudrama? Sge obviously acted as "Susan Foreman" in the scenes where they recreated scenes from the original episodes. -- [[Special:Contributions/70.24.244.51|70.24.244.51]]<sup>[[User talk:70.24.244.51#top|talk to me]]</sup> 06:43, November 24, 2013 (UTC)
:There is a difference, though it can be hard to see. The docudrama actor never acted as Susan, she only acted as Carol Ann Ford. While in character as Carol Ann Ford, she acted as Susan, but she '''never''' acted as Susan in any DW story. [[User:Shambala108|Shambala108]] [[User talk:Shambala108|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 15:19, November 24, 2013 (UTC)
 
== Stealing the President's daughter ==
 
Clarifying this removal, because of how factually wrong it really is after first glance.
 
: In season 9''s "Hell Bent", the 12th doctor tells Clara he ran away with the president's wife in a stolen tardis then says he was lying. He ran away with the president''s daughter. Since Susan was the only one with him when he took the tardis, the implication is that she was the president's daughter and imply the president was his son-in-law.
 
No, he didn't. He said no such thing. He said he stole the President's daughter. That's it. You don't have to leave a planet to do that, whatever that specifically means. And considering what Missy said about the President's wife/daughter and the moon in ''The Magician's Apprentice'' and how he knew her for that long, it's pretty much spelled out that this was during his time at the academy, not when he was greying and centuries old. -- [[User:Tybort|Tybort]] ([[User talk:Tybort|talk page]]) 17:12, January 24, 2016 (UTC)


== Susan a Time Lady or Just a Gallifreyan? ==


I was re-watching ''The Dalek Invasion of Earth'' and wanted to double-check what happened to Susan after she left the Doctor, but side-tracked by the intro statement at the top of her page. The page claims that Susan was a Time Lady who travelled with the Doctor. However, my question is this: do we know for sure that she was a Time Lady, or is she just a Gallifreyan? In other words, while we know Susan was from Gallifrey, are we sure she was one of the Time Lord elite? Does this make sense? --[[User:Bold Clone|<span style="color:darkblue">'''Bold'''</span>]] [[User Talk:Bold Clone|<span style="color:gold">'''Clone'''</span>]] 22:36, June 5, 2016 (UTC)
: Really, the franchise isn't really consistent as whether Time Lord is the name of the race more or less synonymous with Gallifreyan or if they're "the elite" of a race called Gallifreyans (although as far as I can tell, outside of the likes of the ''Interference'' books and the comic strip ''The Stolen TARDIS'', the TV series calls them a race, in stories such as ''The War Games'', ''School Reunion'', ''Smith and Jones'' and ''The Sound of Drums'', along with secondary sources like ''[[The Making of Doctor Who]]'' and [[Russell T Davies]]' production notes in ''Doctor Who Magazine''). It's something I've been meaning to amend to the lead of [[Time Lord]] for ages, but have yet to finish investigating stories from various eras of the franchise. -- [[User:Tybort|Tybort]] ([[User talk:Tybort|talk page]]) 23:58, June 5, 2016 (UTC)
:Hm. Ok, that's good to know. Thanks for the clarification...that there isn't a clarification? Oh well. :D --[[User:Bold Clone|<span style="color:darkblue">'''Bold'''</span>]] [[User Talk:Bold Clone|<span style="color:gold">'''Clone'''</span>]] 00:51, June 6, 2016 (UTC)
::Yeah there is some disparity, as she can pilot a TARDIS something only Time Lords can do, but she didn't go to the Academy '''[[User:AdricLovesNyssa|Adric♥Nyssa]]'''∩''[[User_talk:AdricLovesNyssa|Talk?]]'' 06:00, June 6, 2016 (UTC)


But then wouldn't the Doctor have known about Jenny beforehand? If I remembered the episode clearly, he was fairly surprised about Jenny.[[Special:Contributions/98.220.223.197|98.220.223.197]] 14:10, May 15, 2010 (UTC)
== Page move ==
:Well, of course, strictly, unless Jenny is actually Susan's mother, she would only be Susan's ''half''-aunt. Best for the article to say that the relationship between Jenny and Susan was simply unknown. '''[[User:CzechOut|<span style="background:blue;color:white">Czech</span><span style="background:red;color:white">Out</span>]]''' [[User talk:CzechOut|]] | [[Special:Contributions/CzechOut|<font size="+1">✍</font>]] 15:22, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
Was there a discussion about moving this page from [[Susan Foreman]] to [[Susan]] that I missed? I presume it was moved either to be neutral on the Foreman vs English matter (which seems strange given that Foreman is far more common and policy is to use TV names over those in novelisations anyway) or because she changes her name to Campbell later on (which again seems strange given that Jo goes from Grant to Jones but hasn't been moved to simply [[Jo]]). [[User:Jack &#34;BtR&#34; Saxon|Jack &#34;BtR&#34; Saxon]] [[User talk:Jack &#34;BtR&#34; Saxon|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 15:34, 23 November 2022 (UTC)a
:
: [[User:NateBumber]] added a rename tag on July 18th last, I think under the assumption that there would be a discussion, and then [[User:Doug86]] just did the rename the very next day. I'm a little puzzled too. I suspect Nate's original reasoning may have been something else entirely, though: that "Susan Foreman" (or indeed "English") was just a temporary alias adopted during ''[[An Unearthly Child (TV story)|An Unearthly Child]]'' for paperwork purposes, which she never uses again, and that for most of her tenure her name really ''is'' simply "Susan". But that's overlooking that "Susan Foreman" continued to be used in credits throughout the TV Hartnell era. <span style="color: #baa3d6;font-family:Comic Sans;">[[User:Scrooge MacDuck|'''Scrooge MacDuck''']]</span> <span style="color: #baa3d6;">[[User_talk:Scrooge MacDuck|]]</span> 15:43, 23 November 2022 (UTC)
:Uh, at what point in Doctor's Daughter is it ever even implied that Jenny is Susan's mother? Are we getting fanon mixed up with canon again? All we know is Jenny is the Doctor's offspring. Ergo that makes her Susan's aunt by any legal definition. [[Special:Contributions/68.146.81.123|68.146.81.123]] 03:11, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
:: Yeah, the credits thing is a strong argument which I wasn't aware of when I proposed the rename, which would have hopefully come up in the discussion I meant to start with the proposal. – [[User:NateBumber|n8]] ([[User talk:NateBumber|]]) 15:54, 23 November 2022 (UTC)


==Pics==
:: [Edit conflict] Okay. I definitely see the merit in that, but I do think a discussion would be best, if only for posterity.
Please remember that [[The Pilot Episode]] is not canonical, and, thus, according to our [[Tardis:Canon policy|Canon policy]], cannot be used to illustrate an article about an in-universe topic like this one. Also, according to [[Tardis:Manual of Style#Image use]], promotional stills of [[Carole Ann Ford]], even if black and white, cannot be used to illustrate this topic either. '''[[User:CzechOut|<span style="background:blue;color:white">Czech</span><span style="background:red;color:white">Out</span>]]''' [[User talk:CzechOut|]] | [[Special:Contributions/CzechOut|<font size="+1"></font>]] 15:24, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
:: I proposed moving [[Tish Jones]] to [[Letitia Jones]] a few years ago and you [Scrooge] pointed out that "we don't like to stray from TV characters' credits without good reason", which I agree is the right way to do it. Carole Ann Ford's credited as "Susan Foreman" on TV as you've pointed out but, with the exception of ''[[After the Daleks (audio story)|After the Daleks]]'', I believe she's always been credited as "Susan" or "Susan Campbell" by Big Finish.
:: I would argue that the TV credits would trump this but you might very well disagree. [[User:Jack &#34;BtR&#34; Saxon|Jack &#34;BtR&#34; Saxon]] [[User talk:Jack &#34;BtR&#34; Saxon|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 15:59, 23 November 2022 (UTC)
:: It's not just the Hartnell era - she was also credited as Susan Foreman in The Five Doctors. And the BBC radio play "Whatever Happened to Susan Foreman" also shows that audiences 30 years later generally understood the character to be named Susan Foreman. (Edit: She has also been credited as "Susan Foreman" in Big Finish audios set after the Dalek Invasion - [https://www.bigfinish.com/releases/v/doctor-who-after-the-daleks-2229 example].) The TV credits should settle the matter, but if people are concerned for some reason about the name being an alias, the eighth Doctor angrily tells I.M. Foreman in Interference that "My granddaughter even named herself after you," so it's evidently a meaningful choice that characters are discussing emotively centuries later rather than some trivial bureaucratic decision. [[User:PintlessMan|PintlessMan]] [[User talk:PintlessMan|<span title="Talk to me"></span>]] 22:04, 23 November 2022 (UTC)
:::Jack did say "with the exception of ''[[After the Daleks (audio story)|After the Daleks]]''". But I'm in favor of moving her back. [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me"></span>]] 22:13, 23 November 2022 (UTC)


:Firstly, I agree the page should be moved back. "Foreman" is a part of the character's identity both in-universe and out. But also, I just noticed that [[T:DAB]] still uses [[Susan]] as an example of a page which should be a disambiguation page! While that policy does have a section on primary topics, I don't think that applies here. It first says common English names should always be disambiguation pages. So not only do I think [[Susan Foreman]] is a better page title, but we should not even be using the page [[Susan]] for her— both because that page is supposed to be a disambiguation, and because she actually has a last name to use. The concept of primary topics is much about what readers would search for, and I'd argue that's more likely to be Susan Foreman than just Susan. [[User:Chubby Potato|Chubby Potato]] [[User talk:Chubby Potato|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 00:24, 12 January 2023 (UTC)


==Joanna Page 'Confirmed'?==
:: It's past time we did the move back. But I have to disagree on the other thing. [[T:DAB]] can just be updated with a different example. There's no reason the dab page can't just stya at [[Susan (disambiguation)]]; indeed, when we're through with more urgent matters, I am of a mind to put forward a motion in the Temp Forums to make the "(disambiguation)" dab term mandatory for all disambiguation page, like story dabs, rather than the inconsistent hodgepodge we have now. [[User:Scrooge MacDuck|'''Scrooge MacDuck''']] [[User_talk:Scrooge MacDuck|]] 00:27, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
The article states Joanna Page has been 'confirmed' as starring in a future episode - Where exactly is the source for this? Are we now accepting a tabloid ( and one well known for it's false rumours) story as 'confirmation'? For the record, both the BBC and Page have denied any involvement. [[Special:Contributions/80.0.211.162|80.0.211.162]] 01:51, May 25, 2010 (UTC)


* And that's good enough to delete the rumour. If it isn't confirmed by the BBC, then it has to be considered false information. I've never, ever come across a tabloid rumor regarding Doctor Who in its current version that has been correct. Otherwise we'd be watching Paterson Joseph as the Doctor (since he was "confirmed" as being cast as the Doctor), and the Doctor long ago would have gotten romantically involved with Captain Jack (per another "confirmed" report). [[Special:Contributions/68.146.81.123|68.146.81.123]] 03:04, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
::: Well, thanks for moving it back. I got a unique error saying "there is no section 9" since I tried to submit this on [[Talk:Susan]] after you had moved it! Anyways, my point about [[T:DAB]] was not that we should move it because it specifically uses "Susan" as an example, but because it says "Common English names and titles are retained for use as a disambiguation page". This also contradicts the page's own specification of (Queen) [[Victoria]] later on. Because of this and your idea about the disambiguation (disambiguation), as well as other concerns I've seen, I think a thread about disambiguations would be well deserved. [[User:Chubby Potato|Chubby Potato]] [[User talk:Chubby Potato|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 00:41, 12 January 2023 (UTC)


** '''WARNING SPOILER''': [http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0656215/ IMDb states] that Joanna Page is present in the two final episodes of this fifth season, in the role of a "Time Lady". Maybe's Susan, maybe's not, we have just to wait and see.--[[User:Sid-Vicious|Sid-Vicious]] 10:50, May 31, 2010 (UTC)
::::Part of my original reason for suggesting the move (a suggestion which I've withdrawn, for the record) was that dozens of pages were linking to the disambiguation page [[Susan]] where they meant Susan Foreman, in contexts where using her terrestrial surname wouldn't make sense. I'm happy that this page has been moved back, but I agree with Scrooge that [[T:DAB]] is out-of-date compared to current practice. [[User:NateBumber|n8]] ([[User talk:NateBumber|]]) 01:10, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
*** And we all know now how "correct" that was, don't we? The IMDb is NOT A RELIABLE SOURCE for this sort of information. Only the BBC or a "trusted media outlet" such as the Radio Times or DWM. I've once again removed the Joanna Page reference from the article. [[Special:Contributions/68.146.81.123|68.146.81.123]] 01:33, August 10, 2010 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 01:10, 12 January 2023

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Archives: #1

Relationship to Jenny[[edit source]]

This article states that Jenny must be Susan's aunt. It forgets the possibility that Jenny is Susan's mother. 96.45.196.227 20:45, May 10, 2010 (UTC)

But then wouldn't the Doctor have known about Jenny beforehand? If I remembered the episode clearly, he was fairly surprised about Jenny.98.220.223.197 14:10, May 15, 2010 (UTC)
Well, of course, strictly, unless Jenny is actually Susan's mother, she would only be Susan's half-aunt. Best for the article to say that the relationship between Jenny and Susan was simply unknown. CzechOut | 15:22, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
Uh, at what point in Doctor's Daughter is it ever even implied that Jenny is Susan's mother? Are we getting fanon mixed up with canon again? All we know is Jenny is the Doctor's offspring. Ergo that makes her Susan's aunt by any legal definition. 68.146.81.123 03:11, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
There's really no such thing as a "half-aunt". I have a half-brother and a half-sister, and to all of their kids I'm simply their aunt. The three of us share a parent, that's as far as it needs to go. wannablessedbe talk to me 11:19, February 15, 2012 (UTC)

Note at top of the page[[edit source]]

As the canon policy has been completely rewritten and its under-construction "successor" Tardis:Valid sources hasn't mentioned the pilot, what's a better way of phrasing why we don't include images of The Pilot Episode? -- Tybort (talk page) 11:10, July 7, 2012 (UTC)

Larna[[edit source]]

This links to the Larna article - but is that the same as "Lady Larna" ? -- Beardouk 21:12, July 19, 2012 (UTC)

Good point. Larna needs editing in light of Forum:Is The Infinity Doctors canon? anyway. I'll try to take care of that in the next day or two, and when I do I'll add a note about Susan as the "Lady Larna" in Birth of a Renegade. —Josiah Rowe 03:51, August 10, 2012 (UTC)
Upon checking Birth of a Renegade, it turns out that the name given to Susan there is "Lady Larn", not "Larna" at all. Which tidies things up a bit. —Josiah Rowe 05:17, August 15, 2012 (UTC)

Arkytior?[[edit source]]

Is the "original" name of Arkytior actually canon? I know some books have tried to give the master's name, but it is not accepted as cannon. Shouldn't this be treated the same way? I recommend removing that name as fact and only listing it as a possibility that has not been confirmed. Whosethebestwho 10:13, January 21, 2013 (UTC)

This wiki does not deal with "canon" as a concept, and all sources are treated with equal weight. Therefore to this wikia, Arktior is regarded as a possible name for Susan, along with Lady Larn. --Revan\Talk 12:49, January 21, 2013 (UTC)

Seriously??? When did that change? I've been away a while. You all really don't care about canon here? So I can publish a Doctor Who book, make any wild claims and it will be treated as gospel here? That doesn't seem right. Whosethebestwho 02:00, January 22, 2013 (UTC)

Unfortunately you've misunderstood Revan's comment about canon. The idea is not that the wiki doesn't care about canon, it's that all stories (under certain guidelines) count, and therefore the name Arkytior is accepted in the article. For a better description than I could give, check out Tardis:Canon policy, Tardis:Valid sources, and Tardis:Neutral point of view (especially the in-universe section), all of which should be helpful. Shambala108 02:20, January 22, 2013 (UTC)
I appreciate the info. This place has changed. I'll keep all that in mind in the future. Whosethebestwho 05:10, January 22, 2013 (UTC)
It's not really a change. I've been here on and off since very close to the wiki's inception, and we've always been inclusive of officially licensed Doctor Who in all media. Things have become a bit more formalized lately, but the principles have always been the same here. TV, novels, audios, comics, short stories: it all "counts", or nearly all. (A few things are excluded, by discussion-based consensus.) But we try to treat it all the same. —Josiah Rowe 05:24, January 22, 2013 (UTC)
I beg to differ, Josiah. It used to be that books, comics, et al, were not given the same weight as the TV shows. To use the example of the Master, his page used to show that he was given a name in one of the books, but that it was not known if that was truly his name or not. Now said name is being listed on his page as gospel truth, even though it is still questionable. That, coupled with the entry on Susan's page show a mared shift. Namely, that books are being given equal, if not greater weight, than the TV shows. That is a change in this wiki. As I mentioned above, I had been away for a while, so I was not aware of the shift. Shambala was kind enough to point me to the documents, and I will keep the information in mind. Whosethebestwho 05:44, January 22, 2013 (UTC)

The Name of the Doctor[[edit source]]

Who played Susan during the Gallifrey scene when they steal the TARDIS? -- 65.94.76.126talk to me 14:03, May 21, 2013 (UTC)

  • Herself, or more specif Carole Ann Ford; it's archive footage from the TV: Aztecs
Sabovia  00:33, July 5, 2013 (UTC)

"An Adventure in Space and Time"[[edit source]]

What's wrong with adding the actor from the docudrama? Sge obviously acted as "Susan Foreman" in the scenes where they recreated scenes from the original episodes. -- 70.24.244.51talk to me 06:43, November 24, 2013 (UTC)

There is a difference, though it can be hard to see. The docudrama actor never acted as Susan, she only acted as Carol Ann Ford. While in character as Carol Ann Ford, she acted as Susan, but she never acted as Susan in any DW story. Shambala108 15:19, November 24, 2013 (UTC)

Stealing the President's daughter[[edit source]]

Clarifying this removal, because of how factually wrong it really is after first glance.

In season 9s "Hell Bent", the 12th doctor tells Clara he ran away with the president's wife in a stolen tardis then says he was lying. He ran away with the presidents daughter. Since Susan was the only one with him when he took the tardis, the implication is that she was the president's daughter and imply the president was his son-in-law.

No, he didn't. He said no such thing. He said he stole the President's daughter. That's it. You don't have to leave a planet to do that, whatever that specifically means. And considering what Missy said about the President's wife/daughter and the moon in The Magician's Apprentice and how he knew her for that long, it's pretty much spelled out that this was during his time at the academy, not when he was greying and centuries old. -- Tybort (talk page) 17:12, January 24, 2016 (UTC)

Susan a Time Lady or Just a Gallifreyan?[[edit source]]

I was re-watching The Dalek Invasion of Earth and wanted to double-check what happened to Susan after she left the Doctor, but side-tracked by the intro statement at the top of her page. The page claims that Susan was a Time Lady who travelled with the Doctor. However, my question is this: do we know for sure that she was a Time Lady, or is she just a Gallifreyan? In other words, while we know Susan was from Gallifrey, are we sure she was one of the Time Lord elite? Does this make sense? --Bold Clone 22:36, June 5, 2016 (UTC)

Really, the franchise isn't really consistent as whether Time Lord is the name of the race more or less synonymous with Gallifreyan or if they're "the elite" of a race called Gallifreyans (although as far as I can tell, outside of the likes of the Interference books and the comic strip The Stolen TARDIS, the TV series calls them a race, in stories such as The War Games, School Reunion, Smith and Jones and The Sound of Drums, along with secondary sources like The Making of Doctor Who and Russell T Davies' production notes in Doctor Who Magazine). It's something I've been meaning to amend to the lead of Time Lord for ages, but have yet to finish investigating stories from various eras of the franchise. -- Tybort (talk page) 23:58, June 5, 2016 (UTC)
Hm. Ok, that's good to know. Thanks for the clarification...that there isn't a clarification? Oh well. :D --Bold Clone 00:51, June 6, 2016 (UTC)
Yeah there is some disparity, as she can pilot a TARDIS something only Time Lords can do, but she didn't go to the Academy Adric♥NyssaTalk? 06:00, June 6, 2016 (UTC)

Page move[[edit source]]

Was there a discussion about moving this page from Susan Foreman to Susan that I missed? I presume it was moved either to be neutral on the Foreman vs English matter (which seems strange given that Foreman is far more common and policy is to use TV names over those in novelisations anyway) or because she changes her name to Campbell later on (which again seems strange given that Jo goes from Grant to Jones but hasn't been moved to simply Jo). Jack "BtR" Saxon 15:34, 23 November 2022 (UTC)a

User:NateBumber added a rename tag on July 18th last, I think under the assumption that there would be a discussion, and then User:Doug86 just did the rename the very next day. I'm a little puzzled too. I suspect Nate's original reasoning may have been something else entirely, though: that "Susan Foreman" (or indeed "English") was just a temporary alias adopted during An Unearthly Child for paperwork purposes, which she never uses again, and that for most of her tenure her name really is simply "Susan". But that's overlooking that "Susan Foreman" continued to be used in credits throughout the TV Hartnell era. Scrooge MacDuck 15:43, 23 November 2022 (UTC)
Yeah, the credits thing is a strong argument which I wasn't aware of when I proposed the rename, which would have hopefully come up in the discussion I meant to start with the proposal. – n8 () 15:54, 23 November 2022 (UTC)
[Edit conflict] Okay. I definitely see the merit in that, but I do think a discussion would be best, if only for posterity.
I proposed moving Tish Jones to Letitia Jones a few years ago and you [Scrooge] pointed out that "we don't like to stray from TV characters' credits without good reason", which I agree is the right way to do it. Carole Ann Ford's credited as "Susan Foreman" on TV as you've pointed out but, with the exception of After the Daleks, I believe she's always been credited as "Susan" or "Susan Campbell" by Big Finish.
I would argue that the TV credits would trump this but you might very well disagree. Jack "BtR" Saxon 15:59, 23 November 2022 (UTC)
It's not just the Hartnell era - she was also credited as Susan Foreman in The Five Doctors. And the BBC radio play "Whatever Happened to Susan Foreman" also shows that audiences 30 years later generally understood the character to be named Susan Foreman. (Edit: She has also been credited as "Susan Foreman" in Big Finish audios set after the Dalek Invasion - example.) The TV credits should settle the matter, but if people are concerned for some reason about the name being an alias, the eighth Doctor angrily tells I.M. Foreman in Interference that "My granddaughter even named herself after you," so it's evidently a meaningful choice that characters are discussing emotively centuries later rather than some trivial bureaucratic decision. PintlessMan 22:04, 23 November 2022 (UTC)
Jack did say "with the exception of After the Daleks". But I'm in favor of moving her back. Najawin 22:13, 23 November 2022 (UTC)
Firstly, I agree the page should be moved back. "Foreman" is a part of the character's identity both in-universe and out. But also, I just noticed that T:DAB still uses Susan as an example of a page which should be a disambiguation page! While that policy does have a section on primary topics, I don't think that applies here. It first says common English names should always be disambiguation pages. So not only do I think Susan Foreman is a better page title, but we should not even be using the page Susan for her— both because that page is supposed to be a disambiguation, and because she actually has a last name to use. The concept of primary topics is much about what readers would search for, and I'd argue that's more likely to be Susan Foreman than just Susan. Chubby Potato 00:24, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
It's past time we did the move back. But I have to disagree on the other thing. T:DAB can just be updated with a different example. There's no reason the dab page can't just stya at Susan (disambiguation); indeed, when we're through with more urgent matters, I am of a mind to put forward a motion in the Temp Forums to make the "(disambiguation)" dab term mandatory for all disambiguation page, like story dabs, rather than the inconsistent hodgepodge we have now. Scrooge MacDuck 00:27, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
Well, thanks for moving it back. I got a unique error saying "there is no section 9" since I tried to submit this on Talk:Susan after you had moved it! Anyways, my point about T:DAB was not that we should move it because it specifically uses "Susan" as an example, but because it says "Common English names and titles are retained for use as a disambiguation page". This also contradicts the page's own specification of (Queen) Victoria later on. Because of this and your idea about the disambiguation (disambiguation), as well as other concerns I've seen, I think a thread about disambiguations would be well deserved. Chubby Potato 00:41, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
Part of my original reason for suggesting the move (a suggestion which I've withdrawn, for the record) was that dozens of pages were linking to the disambiguation page Susan where they meant Susan Foreman, in contexts where using her terrestrial surname wouldn't make sense. I'm happy that this page has been moved back, but I agree with Scrooge that T:DAB is out-of-date compared to current practice. – n8 () 01:10, 12 January 2023 (UTC)