Talk:The Master (Terror of the Autons)

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Rename proposal: Twelfth Master

In The Keeper of Traken, Geoffrey Beevers' Master says, "I am now nearing the end of my twelfth regeneration." This is the one explicit identification we've been given for the Master's incarnation count, and no later sources have contradicted this account. Unfortunately, various ambiguities mean that we cannot simply rename Decayed Master to Thirteenth Master. However, we can use this fact for the naming of this page.

When Twelfth Master was proposed in 2011–12, it was shot down because Legacy of the Daleks was taken to indicate that Delgado was the Thirteenth Master and had decayed directly into Beevers without an intervening regeneration. However, in the decade since, Big Finish Productions has released several audios featuring the Beevers Master before he was decayed (such as The Two Masters) and several which explicitly confirm that Delgado and Beevers were separate incarnations (most notably Masterful). Doctor Who Magazine's Doorway to Hell also demonstrated that Delgado's Master had the ability to regenerate. With this preponderance of sources, the obstacle to naming dissolves away: even though some accounts called her "Susan English", we named Susan Foreman's article "Susan Foreman" because that was simply the name supported by the most stories! The same applies to Twelfth Master.

But even ignoring these new stories, Legacy of the Daleks simply doesn't support the interpretation which was cited to shoot down the proposal 10 years ago. To briefly digress into analysis, when the Doctor and the Delgado Master first meet in Legacy, they talk as if the Master still has regenerations left:

‘So you’ve changed bodies again? Getting through them aren’t you?’

‘And you’re still in the same old body,’ the Doctor mused thoughtfully. ‘Quite remarkable. You’re rather well preserved.’

‘Thank you,’ said the Master with a small ironic bow. ‘Life has been rather good to me of late.’'Legacy of the Daleks

That conversation would simply make no sense if Delgado was the Thirteenth Master; it wouldn't be ‘Life has been rather good to me,’ it would be ‘Yeah, dummy, I can’t regenerate’! Later, at the end of the novel, the Doctor reflects on what he's learned:

He already knew that the Master had hidden on Tersurus when his final regeneration had been used up. Some devastating force had ravaged his body and left him a crippled wreck.'Legacy of the Daleks

In other words, Delgado's transformation into Beevers is explicitly described as using "his final regeneration". Legacy of the Daleks speaks loud and clear: Delgado is the Twelfth Master.

With Legacy addressed, the only potential remaining dissent comes from FASA's CIA File Extracts, which is famously contradictory (it also says the Monk is the Master) and dampens its own credibility by presenting itself as a speculative in-universe document. That story specifies that Delgado was indeed the Thirteenth Master – but it also says he was the Twelfth, Tenth, Ninth, Eighth, and so on for several physically identical incarnations. Even in this highly contrary account, "Twelfth Master" is still an accurate name for this page!

As I hope I've made clear, a preponderance of sources point toward a single consensus numbering for Roger Delgado's incarnation as the Twelfth Master. This seems like a gold standard for Master incarnation naming: non-speculative; already widely attested in fandom; and supported by the existing precedent of prioritising incarnation numbering when available. I hope that by making this one of the first names we adopt following the Master split, we can set a strong precedent for future incarnation naming discussions. Thanks for reading! – n8 (☎) 15:12, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

I support this proposal. It makes perfect sense. Danniesen ☎ 15:19, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

I completely agree. Jack "BtR" Saxon ☎ 15:21, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

I am in 100% agreement with this proposal. It handily addresses the confusion surrounding ‘’Legacy of the Daleks’’. Also worth noting is that it’s not just the characters in-universe from that story, but the OOU narrator. “There was no respite now, no way to regenerate ‘’from such a death’’.” This statement would not make sense if Delgado was the Thirteenth Master —why would the means of death matter if he was on his last incarnation? This handily pushes the major source for “Delgado as not the Twelfth Master” out of contention. I say we go with Twelfth Master.NoNotTheMemes ☎ 15:31, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

I also completely agree with this proposal.

EPSILON^🔎 |📯|📂|📦|📝

15:42, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

I disagree. Firstly because I think it's a bad name that isn't really in keeping with our current naming system - all the other Masters aren't listed by incarnation number, they've all got nicknames, this doesn't keep in with that. Additionally, there's not explicit confirmation on him being the 12th incarnation - no story calls him that, the only reason it's concluded he's the "12th" is that most sources have him transform into the Decayed Master, who's out of lives. However, there are some sources out there that seem to indicate that Delgado could have been an incarnation before the 12th (As stated above, Legacy implies he's got regenerations left, but there's nothing stating he's on his last regeneration in it - this also goes for other sources that feature him regenerating), and the accident that transforms him into the Decayed prevents him from regenerating further. Other accounts seem to indicate that he's the 13th and Decayed is the 14th (The Death List from Girl Power and some of the annual stories seem to suggest this). So that's why I don't support this name change. Perhaps not the most eloquent response, and I'll probably remember other points I should have made as part of this later, but I think it makes the point clear - I do not support this name, and feel like we should continue the search for a more general one that isn't tied to incarnation number, since we haven't done that with any other Master. TheSpaghetOutcast ☎ 16:29, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

I must say, I am with Outcast on that one. While there is indeed a few sources implying he is the twelfth incarnation, I don’t find it conclusive, and I genuinely feel like having just one numbered incarnation in the middle of proposed nicknames and story dabs is not for the best.

As well, i feel that with the few sources listed above, there’s enough doubt about the specific numbers that I wouldn’t feel very comfortable having it as a page name. And while I know things can always change later, I’m also not sure if this is very future proof (Big Finish or the likes might very well produce more stories showing him not to be the twelfth incarnation after all)

For now, I am more in favor of keeping the current name, though I do see why the argument for “the Twelfth Master” exists, and I will not deny it has some ground to stand on. Liria10 ☎ 17:02, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

While I acknowledge that your argument against the name on the basis of disputing accounts, which is perfectly fair... I strongly, strongly disagree about not using it on the basis if it's "not consistent" with other names.

Doctor Who isn't consistent. It just isn't. There will never be a unanimous naming scheme for Doctors, K9s, universes, and Masters. But that being said, occasionally, some individual names can be mostly agreed upon, and arguing that we shouldn't use them because they won't be consistent with other names... guess we're moving Eleventh Doctor to The Doctor (The End of Time)!

And besides, naming this page Twelfth Master is not ascribing a naming scheme to other Masters, it's just for this Master, which most accounts seem to agree is the twelfth incarnation. We should be able to acknowledge certain Masters as being a certain incarnation number.

EPSILON^🔎 |📯|📂|📦|📝

18:17, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

I also oppose this proposal, for the reasons Outcast and Liria listed above.

Part of the reason it's OK to have Susan Foreman is that which particular surname she happened to adopt on Earth is a minor point; branding Delgado's character "the Twelfth Master", on the other hand, has massive implications for the character's backstory. It would be making an objective ruling about how many lives he's lived, when no such agreement exists. An article's title is perhaps more important than the article itself - it's what proliferates in hyperlinks all across the wiki, and shapes readers' perceptions of who a character really is to a far greater extent than any footnote or equivocation in the page's prose. As such, it needs to be held to an especially high standard of neutrality.

Additionally, it would falsely suggest a consensus that all eleven of the character's previous incarnations went by "the Master", which would contradict numerous stories that have them going by Koschei, Pavo, Magnus, the War Chief, and so on.

I would question the idea that there's a "preponderance of sources" saying that Delgado is the Twelfth Master - that may be one valid interpretation of several sources, but any story which suggests he's capable of regeneration, yet does not actually show him complete that process successfully, is exactly as compatible with the annuals' statement that Delgado was the Thirteenth Master and underwent a botched regeneration.

I don't see anything conclusive about those Legacy of the Daleks quotes. Remember: this is the Eighth Doctor, who has already seen the Ainley and Roberts Masters - he knows full well that Delgado is going to live and acquire multiple further bodies, regardless of whether the Doctor knows or believes that Delgado is on his eleventh, or twelfth, or thirteenth incarnation (and there's no reason, as far as I'm aware, to assume that the Doctor even does know the truth; for instance, the Fourth Doctor in Blood of the Time Lords has only a vague sense of how many times the Dreyfus Master has regenerated). "You're rather well preserved," with this in mind, is just a dramatically ironic comment from a Doctor who has already seen the crispy fate of the man he's talking to. The Master's accepting a compliment about his appearance simply does not confirm that he is capable of regeneration. As for the second quote, it shows the Doctor reflecting on his own vague, incomplete understanding of a situation he had heard of only indirectly - it does not state whether the Decayed Master was the result of a successful twelfth or unsuccessful thirteenth regeneration, only that the Decayed Master had run out, which does not give us a number for Delgado.

I have an alternative proposal for Delgado's character, one which would sidestep the problem of numbering entirely: Keller Master. This option has several advantages: Emil Keller is the first alias that this Master ever creates for himself, appearing as early as his second-ever story, The Mind of Evil. Additionally, we're told that Keller had installed his Keller Machine in Stangmoor Prison "nearly a year" earlier, and that he had already treated 112 prisoners in Switzerland. As such, it's clear that Keller isn't a momentary, inconsequential alias, but an identity that this Master has been establishing, building, and working and living under long-term - meaning that, in fact, he was actually already in the middle of his life and work as Emil Keller during Terror of the Autons, Delgado's debut story. In my view, this makes Keller Master equivalent to and consistent with the incoming Saxon Master precedent. And, without wishing to risk T:NPOV, I just personally think it'd be nice to go with a name that was actually used on-screen in live-action episodes with Roger Delgado all the way back in 1971, rather than a numbering that was debatably implied decades later by some but not all of a contradictory assortment of spin-off audios and novels - Keller Master claims nothing at all about the Master's timeline or backstory beyond what's right there on the screen. PintlessMan ☎ 19:18, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

"Twelfth Master" gets my support/vote, if there is such a vote. This can also be clarified in the "Notes/Behind the Scenes" section if necessary. However, I'm also not averse to keeping the name as is for now if people wish to wait for a little more concrete to be poured into the sources. FractalDoctor ☎ 21:18, 10 January 2023 (UTC)