Theory talk:Timeline - The Master

Terror of the Autons incarnation

The reason I've been saying that the Master is already in the incarnation we see in Terror of the Autons at the start of The Dark Path is that the narration of The Dark Path describes him as such. According to pg. 32 of The Dark Path (I think, not sure about the page number) the narration details the Master's appearance like this: A man in a grey double-breasted suit stepped out and looked around. A cravat with a silver bird-of-prey tiepin was at the collar of his silk shirt. He was of medium build with a high forehead and swept-back hair that was greying at the temples. His neatly trimmed dark beard also had streaks of grey at the comers. That is the exact image of Delgado's Master. --Bold Clone 20:34, June 17, 2014 (UTC)

Speculation

All information about the War Chief, the War King, the Magistrate, and the Man with the Rosette was removed from this page a while back. I guess I always saw this page (and other timeline pages) as a theory zone, since putting events in order often relies on speculation, authorial intent, and otherwise out-of-story evidence. Since here, the main wikispace's ban on out-of-story evidence doesn't apply, is there a reason that the War Chief, War King, Magistrate, and Man with Rosette should be kept separate? NateBumber ☎ 20:47, February 25, 2017 (UTC)

Wasn't the War King technically the Faction Paradox's version of the Master? --Bold Clone 03:03, June 17, 2017 (UTC)

The Man with the Rosette

Looking back over the brief appearance of the man with the rosette in The Adventuress of Henrietta Street, I’m beginning to wonder if perhaps he might actually be the Roger Delgado Incarnation, or at least if that wasn’t the original intention, that it might be the best possible placement now.

Here’s a few extracts with descriptions of his appearance:

Though no name is given for the man, Scarlette says that he was ‘a gentleman of distinguished nature’, clean-shaven and dark-haired, and at first she thought he might have been in the market for business. She does note, however, that on the lapel of his black clothing he wore a rosette in blue-and-white. It would have marked him out as a member of the Opposition, but nonetheless he was quite gracious and civil.

Assembling a picture out of all the accounts, he’s described as a clean- shaved, dark-haired man in distinguished middle age, handsome in some re- spects even though to some of the British witnesses he came across as ‘swarthy and difficult to place’. He was slim and well turned out, and he made an im- pression on the island by always dressing in tight, straightforward clothing of prim black. . . apart from the rosette of blue and white which he wore on his lapel.

Whenever people would ask each other about him, in muted whispers, the dark-haired gentleman would simply bow his head to them. His accent was English, although some said they detected a little Latin in his features.

Now obviously a lot of these features are just trademark Master features, and could in theory be possessed by any incarnation of the Master, but I’d say this description is at least specific enough to tell us that this is either the incarnation of the Master as played by Roger Delgado or a new incarnation/body with a very similar appearance.

Certainly at this stage in the Eighth Doctor Adventures novels, the Master is still very much trapped in the Eye of Harmony, and is for the duration of the novels. Which means this isn’t a "current" incarnation of the Master, instead either a past or future one. So perhaps it could be the Delgado incarnation? The only thing he’s missing is his beard, which he specfically doesn’t have because the Doctor has one. (He’s also later mentioned in The Gallifrey’s Chronicles, this time with a beard.)

Additionally the illustration of one of the four surviving elementals in COMIC: Miranda looks unmistakenly like the silhouette of the Delgado Master. The Man with the Rosette, beard and all was also described as being one of the elementals in The Gallifrey Chronicles. SarahJaneFan ☎ 17:21, January 12, 2020 (UTC)

Your evidence here seems pretty compelling. How would you deal with this? My thoughts are as a subsection under == Public enemy == titled === The Man with the rosette === and making a note that his appearance implies that he's the Delgado Master. As for placement of the subsection, how about between The Judas Goatee and Verdigris? So it would go === Distancing himself from UNIT ===, === The man with the rosette === , and finally === Death === which includes Verdigris, Frontier in Space, Legacy of the Daleks, and Doorway to Hell. Thoughts? Danochy ☎ 00:34, June 1, 2020 (UTC)

The Man with the Rosette recalls his time sparring with the Doctor in the past, so it’s certainly after the bulk of Delgado stories. Plus the Third Doctor’s involvement with the War in Heaven takes place during Season 11 so It’d make sense if the Master's involvement took place roughly in the same era.

I’m not sure about making a section specifically for the Man with the Rosette myself as I do feel that the description matches well enough that we can just assume he is Delgado, but it’s not a dealbreaker for me. Certainly the placement should be somewhere around where you’ve already mentioned.

Also while I’m here, I reckon that the War King would then have to fit in as a pre-Delgado incarnation as he looks physically different to Delgado and the connection to the War Chief is played up significantly. Also the War King is involved with the War in Heaven and dies towards the end of it and then the Man with the Rosette surfaces as one of the surviving elementals in the post-war universe. So I’d suggest we place the War King section between Renegade Time Lord and Public Enemy. SarahJaneFan ☎ 01:00, June 1, 2020 (UTC)

Fair enough, a separate section shouldn't be needed. I suppose the evidence you presented above could be integrated into the timeline with "the man's descriptions fits that of the Master which first appeared in Spearhead from Space". I'm not well-acquainted with the Master from the War and post-War, so I'll let you make any changes you see fit. If anyone has any qualms, have them directed to the talk page and they can participate in discussion. Danochy ☎ 01:34, June 1, 2020 (UTC)

The image used for the War King, IMO, looks a bit like Delgado, but aged. And the War is undone by the Eighth Doctor, in some fashion. Could be feasible he is the Delgado Master, and then he is unaged when the War is erased. After all, the War King knew about the War before it happened, and it is written like he came from after the war to warn the Time Lords.BananaClownMan ☎ 17:43, June 1, 2020 (UTC)

Inclusion of the War Chief and the War in Heaven

Thread:275417 has included some very interesting points, such as how many have come to agree that the points for TM/TWC being the same outnumber the points against, and even discussing merging the pages. And since the War King is has evidence of being both, I believe both should be included on the timeline page, as long as their inclusion does not include too much of disruption.BananaClownMan ☎ 17:49, June 11, 2020 (UTC)

Well I think I’ve made my disagreement more than clear, so it’s up to someone else to way in on the argument. The points they’re making are incredibly twisted towards their bias that the two characters are the same. Like they’re trying to say that Gary Russell intended them to be the same person when in reality he just originally intended "Magnus" to be the Master but later retconned him to be the War Chief instead which is a completely different situation. Not to mention the fact that they’re trying to pass off an incredibly vague description as being intended as the War Chief regenerating into Delgado (In a story published under a policy stating that the characters are separate entities) and then all the War King's unlicensed appearances as well. Really the only legitimate licensed source that implies they’re the same are those Terrance Dicks novelisations, which also imply that the Monk is the Master as well, which he very clearly isn’t. Look there’s not much point in having a debate because neither of us are gonna change our minds here. I think it’s just going to be a case of waiting for the others to come along and cast the deciding vote on this. SarahJaneFan ☎ 11:34, June 20, 2020 (UTC)