Talk:Dust Devil (audio story)

Concerns on coverage

Need to preface this by stating that I haven't listened to Dust Devil or any of the other stories, but why are links being created to pages such as Fourth Doctor (Dust Devil)?

Surely the new timeline is a result of a point of divergence during Genesis of the Daleks, not an entirely new universe? So shouldn't the characters such as the Fourth Doctor and Sarah Jane be treated as the same as their "regular" counterparts up until the timeline split?

Epsilon📯 📂

00:29, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

Due to the element of time travel we cannot say with complete certainty that these characters had the exact timeline as the originals prior to the divergence. Any of their new adventures following the split could theoretically interfere with their individual past. Hence why it is a good idea to cover them on separate pages. DrWHOCorrieFan ☎ 00:42, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

The Unbound stories take place in alternate universes, rather than alternate timelines. If someone had gone back in time and convinced the Fourth Doctor to change his decision, that would be an alternate timeline. That didn't happen here. The Doctor simply chose a different path than the one our Doctor did, which means a parallel universe. DarkXaven ☎ 00:44, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

@DrWHOCorrieFan - that is a valid point, but also speculative, and probably won't be entirely useful.

@DarkXaven - while the other Unbound stories do indeed take place in alternates, it is not impossible for a new story to break that mould. And even though there was seemingly no catalyst for the divergence, it still appears to be a divergence, so there is merit in saying that they're the same up until the divergence.

Epsilon📯 📂

01:14, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

Also, the boxset summary does actually state:

"Times have changed. A choice was made and the universe diverged. And now all of history is at war."Genesis

(Emphasis mine)

Without listening to the story, it does appear from the evidence that there is a divergence point, not a wholly new universe.

Epsilon📯 📂

01:19, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

If two universes diverge doesn't that create another universe? DrWHOCorrieFan ☎ 08:41, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

Doctor Who Unbound has been brought back due to the popularity of Marvel's "What if?" and it follows the exact same setup - characters making different choices which create a wholly new universe within a large multiverse. These separate universes can occasionally interact. DrWHOCorrieFan ☎ 08:43, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

I've listened to the story. It's pretty clear the Warrior's universe is not actually a parallel universe but an alternate timeline that diverges. Dust Devil is about the N-Space Sixth Doctor suffering from changes in the timeline catching up with him. I mean, maybe it's not the N-Space Doctor but one identical to him in every way shown… In either case it's a timeline of some sort and not an entirely separate universe. (Maybe The Warrior's timeline is a better name?) I'll get back to this when I've listened to the other two stories in hopes they have more explanation.

Regardless of that, the Fourth Doctor, Sarah Jane Smith and Harry Sullivan all face different fates after the timeline split occurs. I don't know if that really means they should get their own pages; it might be better for alternate timelines on their main pages. Again, I'll come back when I've listened to the other stories. Chubby Potato ☎ 08:59, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

The Tenth Doctor stated in 'Rise of the Cybermen' that every choice we make creates a parallel universe. So, why would a major choice here only create an "alternate timeline" rather than its own parallel universe? Wasn't Pete's World speculated to have been formed, albeit in a non-valid source, when the timeline diverged following Queen Victoria's death? If this was ever confirmed would you really want all of the parallel counterparts to be placed on single pages? There is a reason we separate Yvonne Hartman and Yvonne Hartman (Pete's World), just like there is a reason that these pages should be separate. DrWHOCorrieFan ☎ 09:07, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

I have to point out that "divergence" is also the word used to describe the moment when two universes split off into different paths. It's like a fork in the road. Prior to the fork, there is only one road. But at the fork, the road splits into two roads, going different directions. The same is true with the universe, splitting into many universes, creating what we know as the multiverse. An alternate timeline would be someone going to the road during its construction and changing the plans for its construction, so it goes in a different direction than before. For an alternate timeline to exist, there has to be a catalyst that causes history to go down a different path than before. They don't occur naturally. So when they do occur, the original timeline ceases to exist. Alternate universes, however, do occur naturally, whenever someone makes a choice. The moment they make that choice, a universe featuring the other choice immediately pops into existence in its own separate dimension, existing alongside the other universe.

The big thing that makes this whole question of alternate timeline vs. alternate universe so complicated, is that the choice at the center of this, the Fourth Doctor's decision with the wires, is linked very heavily to the Time War, the most complicated event in Doctor Who history, with paradoxes piled on top of paradoxes. Prior to the divergence, the Time War would be the one we know, with it occurring during the Eighth Doctor's lifetime. The Time Lords, who sent the Fourth Doctor to Skaro, were from a reality where the Time War occurred then.

So, is this an alternate timeline, or an alternate universe? My problem with alternate timeline is the very fact that there was no outside interference that caused the Fourth Doctor to choose differently. If it is the same universe as the one we know, then it's impossible for the Fourth Doctor to choose differently, because we know he chose not to destroy the Daleks. He can't just magically choose otherwise, unless there's an outside influence. We currently have no evidence of any such influence. But, there's still the existence of the Sixth Doctor and Peri to consider. This whole mess is so complicated, it's like we're dealing with an alternate timeline of an alternate universe. DarkXaven ☎ 11:03, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

To address your points @DrWHOCorrieFan, I need to say two things:

• Firstly, we are not Marvel. How Marvel handles their What If series is antithetical to how Big Finish handles their Unbound series, even if the former was the inspiration for the latter, and that there exist basic commonalities between the two. So it doesn't really matter that What If stories are set in their own "Earth-XYZ" universe, Doctor Who always does its own thing.
• Secondly, you forget that Doctor Who and consistency are not "friends". They don't go hand in hand. Doctor Who is not consistent. More often than not, a lot of lore, especially about alternate universes/timelines (as @NoNotTheMemes can testify!) is extraordinarily contradictory between sources. There is no one "true" explanation of how timelines work, and it varies story from story.

And to address your points, @DarkXaven...

• What I said in response to @DrWHOCorrieFan applies here too: Doctor Who does not have consistent rules on how universes work. While normally, there may need to be a catalyst for a split, a divergence, this isn't necessary. We need to examine the evidence in the story, and so far it seems pretty clear to me that this is working as an forking timeline/universe from the original one, even if it has been set up unconventionally.
• Moreover, there could still be a story yet that establishes that was indeed a catalyst for the split. It just hasn't been explained yet.
• Finally, it is worth mentioning that in the real world, universes and timelines are treated as the same theoretical concept. It's only in fiction where there is a difference, and it may be entirely possible that Dust Devil is using the real world understanding on how universes may work.

While there may a lot up in the air, I think that given the evidence we have so far, even if that same evidence doesn't align with previous DWU sources, treats the events of Dust Devil as a divergent timeline. This is especially clear, given that @Chubby Potato has listened to the story and confirmed the "divergent timeline" as such.

Epsilon📯 📂

12:38, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

My question to you is, why would you want this information covered on a single page? What are the benefits? DrWHOCorrieFan ☎ 12:40, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

To have a consistent and functional Wiki that operates on facts and information given from stories, not fan hypotheses?

Epsilon📯 📂

12:43, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

This boxset's concept is in no way different to the other Unbound releases, but simply because the Doctor retains his face you think that they should be treated different to the characters who are played by new actors? Interesting direction. Literally the whole Unbound Universe was created by the divergent of sending the Doctor to Hong Kong rather than England in the 1980s. Explain to me how that is any different to The Warrior's universe. DrWHOCorrieFan ☎ 13:03, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

There were differences between the Unbound Universe and the main one before the Doctor's trial. I support the Fourth Doctor material in this story being covered on Fourth Doctor in a dedicated section about Genesis of the Daleks. – n8 (☎) 13:18, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

So the deal with this set is a little strange. It begins in “our” universe, up to the point the Doctor decides to wipe out the Dalek incubators. This is signposted by the fact that Sarah begins to feel history breaking before she and Harry are killed by the Daleks. It’s made clear that the Doctor’s decision to wipe out the Daleks created the divergence and damaged time, leading to many versions of the Doctor running about. So we spend the majority of Dust Devils following the Sixth Doctor and Peri from the main continuity (or at least versions of them that are virtually identical) who begin to experience time shifting around them into the Warrior’s universe. Ultimately the Sixth Doctor (who was meant to the proper Doctor but the divergence to the timeline made him more of an aberrant timeline) is killed in order to allow The Warrior to become the primary timeline. So it’s sort of like the history of N-Space is rewritten rather than branching off, but we get no indication that it’s actually going to be put back beyond some promotional stuff comparing The Warrior to the Nightmare Child and the Skaro Degradations. I think we need to wait for the next set and then decide whether or not things should be split. As of now, The Warrior exits in a rewritten version of N-Space like Klein’s World. The timeline was in flux to begin with and allowed for other Doctors like the regular Sixth Doctor to exist until it was solidified as the Warrior’s world. SarahJaneFan ☎ 13:35, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

@DrWHOCorrieFan - obviously this boxset is breaking the Unbound mould considering the evidence given by @Chubby Potato and @SarahJaneFan. I am not stating that these are the same timelines merely because "the Doctor retains his face"; I never said anything of the sort - I have been trying to ascertain the facts given from the stories in question. And as for AUDIO: Sympathy for the Devil, I'm not entirely sure why they are treated separately, but there has probably been a lot of previous Forum discussions on it.

Considering @SarahJaneFan's explanation, it seems to me to be a divergent universe, albeit entirely non-linearly, where the Fourth Doctor's decision caused time itself to change, not just one specific, neat divergance point. But considering that Genesis widely regarded to be the beginning of the Time War, it makes sense that massive repercussions occured.

Finally, @SarahJaneFan, while it does make sense to wait for further installments to give further details, what do you suggest we do at present? Treat the "original" universe as N-Space or treat them as separate entities?

Epsilon📯 📂

17:23, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

@User:Epsilon the Eternal In regards to Sympathy for the Devil, that one is treated as an alternate universe, because it was clearly established that it was an alternate universe. I know Bernice Summerfield crossed over into that universe and both the Unbound Doctor and Unbound Master have crossed over into the main universe. The Sixth Doctor and Evelyn Smythe also traveled there once and it was done by traveling sideways in time, which is what happens when going from one universe to another, according to the Seventh Doctor.

As for what to do presently, since we're already part way into the info being posted separately, it would probably be easier to just keep it separate for now, and integrate if it turns out to clearly be alternate timeline. I mean, at this point, we can't even put this into one of the tables on the alternate timeline page, since no one has negated it back into the original timeline yet. But, we should leave a note that it's still up in the air on what we're dealing with here, and we're waiting on future anthologies to hopefully clear things up. We do know for sure that there's one anthology yet to come, and with a name like Destiny, it may very well be where things are cleared up. DarkXaven ☎ 23:01, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

Edit: I negate most of my second paragraph, now that I just reread what has previously been said here. But, I still stand by keeping them separate for now, as things are currently set up with that in mind, and I still stand by leaving a note stating that things are still up in the air. 23:20, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

After sleeping on things, I've had an epiphany. We're dealing with a time travel phenomena unlike any we have seen over the years. We're dealing with a paradox that breaks a closed time loop. First, let's cover what the loop is. Event 1: The Fourth Doctor is sent to Skaro to avert the Daleks. He chooses not to do so. Event 2: In response, the Daleks get stronger, to the point where they can challenge the Time Lords, leading to the Time War. To prevent this, the Time Lords send the Fourth Doctor to Skaro to avert the Daleks. It's a chicken and the egg scenario. Which came first? Both events are dependent on the other. However, because the Fourth Doctor had a choice whether to destroy the Daleks or not, the universe would diverge or branch in two at that moment, because that's how parallel universes are formed.

N-Space, our universe, is the branch where the Fourth Doctor chose not to destroy the Daleks. The closed time loop remains intact and the Time War plays out like how we know it to play out. This story is set on the other branch, where the Fourth Doctor chose to destroy the Daleks. However, the Fourth Doctor was only on Skaro because of the other half of the closed time loop, causing a paradox. Prior to that choice, the timeline in this universe was identical to N-Space, including any encounters the first four Doctors had with any future Doctors, any trips they took to the future, etc. This would explain how a version of the Sixth Doctor and Peri could be here. They're remnants of how the timeline was in this universe before the loop was broken, which was identical to N-Space in every way. It, however, is not N-Space, at least, not our N-Space. Our universe is intact and still exists as we know it. I think I somewhat hit the nail on the head when I said alternate timeline of an alternate universe.

Basically, after having this revelation, I stand by my previous judgement. It should be kept separate. While this universe did, at one point, have a timeline identical to N-Space, it is not our N-Space. It is a N-Space. Yes, I'm partially quoting the Tenth Doctor here, but it applies in this case. DarkXaven ☎ 10:37, April 16 2022 (UTC)

As far as this story is concerned, an alternate timeline and an alternate universe are synonymous --in the sense that "alternate universes are a result of a divergence in the course of history". This approach is what is used in the RTD Era and what is used in a majority of Doctor Who fiction. The easiest point of comparison here is Donna's World, an alternative timeline generated by the influence of the Trickster Brigade. Donna's World and Pete's World are both considered the same thing ("great big parallel world[s]"). The Doctor doesn't insist upon "Well, this was an altered timeline or an aborted timeline NOT a parallel universe." because as far as that story is concerned they are the same thing. This is what the STANDARD approach is in fiction. Parallel universes being entirely separate from their genesis is the exception, not the rule. The wiki has this general approach of imposing a difference when it is clearly not the intent.

Saying that the Sixth Doctor and Peri are not from N-Space but instead from "an alternate timeline of this alternate universe" feels like a desperate attempt to not take the story at its word. This story is communicating that "the Warrior's World" is an alternate universe in the same way that "Donna's World" is an alternate universe. The Sixth Doctor and Peri that we see are meant to be the ones we are familiar with. If the Donna from Donna's World met the Donna from the Doctor's World, we wouldn't delineate the latter from the "prime" Donna. Or at the very least, we shouldn't. This does not need to be this complicated.NoNotTheMemes ☎ 19:30, 18 April 2022 (UTC)

Citing the wiki's approach to the Unbound Universe isn't compelling, at least to me, because it's current approach suffers from the same problem. It's not taking the story at its word. The "Unbound Universe" is an alternate timeline in which the Second Doctor was exiled to the 90s rather than the 70s. That's how it's advertised and that's how it is structured in-universe. As far as that story is concerned, it is something that DIVERGED from the original timeline. The premise that the Third Doctor in *Sympathy for the Devil* didn't regenerate from the Second Doctor that we know from the TV show is the Wiki imposing a narrative upon the story that it very evidently was not trying to say. It's imposing a different approach to "alternate timelines v. alternate universes" than what is used in-story.

Imposing the thesis that "alternate timelines are different from alternate universes" as the rule on stories involving Unbounds is a bad doctrine that ignores what the story is trying to do.

Some may argue that "Well, because of this change in the Unbound that means X previous adventure didn't happen the way it used to." To that I say, how is that any different from the rest of the show? The 21st Century that Zoe came from is very obviously not the 21st Century that we see in NuWho, but that isn't used to argue that the Second Doctor in the Eleventh Doctor's past isn't the same incarnation as the one we saw in the War Games. As far as these stories are concerned, alternate timelines ARE alternate universes/parallel universes. This is the far more mainstream approach to a "multiverse" both in Doctor Who fiction and in broader science fiction. Imposing the other definition is editorializing. NoNotTheMemes ☎ 19:48, 18 April 2022 (UTC)

Coverage, at least in my eyes, is relatively straight forward. Cover the events of the story on Fourth Doctor as "An alternate universe was created when the Fourth Doctor concluded that he did have the right. . ." under the "Alternate Timeline" header. On the Sixth Doctor, and Peri Brown, cover the story under "Alternate Timelines" with the prefix of "In one account, the Doctor and Peri were hunted down by an incarnation from an alternate timeline. . ." Of course, cover the events from the Warrior's perspective and Miss Brown's perspective on The Warrior and Miss Brown respectively, but that's more to do with subsequent stories rather than Dust Devil. This, I feel, retains the spirit of the story and preserves authorial intent --rather than imposing the Wiki's editorializing of the "alternate universe v. altered timeline" debacle. NoNotTheMemes ☎ 21:11, 18 April 2022 (UTC)

Let me try to better explain what it is I'm trying to say. Let's say that on June 24th, 1990, someone is trying to disarm an active bomb. He has to choose whether to cut the red wire or the blue wire. Reality diverges into two possibilities at this choice, one where he cuts the red wire, and one where he cuts the blue wire. You live in the reality where he cuts the red wire. It was the right wire and the building is saved. If you travel back in time to June 23rd, and do nothing to meddle with events, what happens? Nothing changes. The red wire is cut. But now, once again on June 24th, travel sideways to the reality where the blue wire is cut instead, and the building is destroyed. Then, travel back to June 23rd and do nothing. What happens? Nothing changes. The blue wire is cut. But, in both realities everything up to the moment the person chooses a wire is exactly the same. If there is only one universe, there is only one June 23rd, because the divergence hasn't happened yet. So, you travel back to June 23rd again and again, still not meddling in any way. If there is only one June 23rd, then statistically half the time, you should end up on the June 24th where the red wire is cut, and the other half of the time, the June 24th where blue wire is cut. But, is that what would happen? No. Every time, the blue wire is cut, because you are in the reality where the blue wire is cut. That's the thing. When reality diverged, not only does it diverge at the main point, the divergence extends back in the past. There are now two June 23rds. There's the June 23rd that leads to the June 24th where the red wire is cut, and there's the one that leads to the June 24th where the blue wire is cut. The two June 23rds are identical in every way, but lead to different futures and are therefore distinct from each other. They are not part of the same universe. They are from parallel universes.

In the analogy with the road with a fork that I've used, not only does the road fork into two directions, but a gap forms, or a wall is built, down the single road, essentially splitting it into two roads, one that only connects to path A and one that only connects to path B. The two roads are identical and go the same direction, until they reach their respective paths, but they are not a single road anymore. They are now two distinct roads. You're in the June 23rd of the blue wire reality. Unless you tamper with the events that will occur, the building will always be destroyed, even though you originated from the red wire reality and the past has not been tampered with. There are only two ways back to the version of events you know. Option 1: Cross back over into your universe, where the red wire was cut. Option 2: Go to the building and convince the person to cut the red wire. This rewrites the blue wire universe so that the red wire is cut instead. That is what this site refers to as an alternate timeline. You're still in the same universe, but you changed its future to more closely match the one in your original one. But, it's still distinct from your universe, because in your reality, you weren't at the building and didn't convince the person to cut the red wire. He just simply chose that option instead. THAT is the distinction between alternate timelines and alternate universes. Alternate universes aka parallel universes aka divergent timelines occur naturally, whenever a choice is made. A universe for every choice. Alternate timelines are unnaturally caused, when an outside force alters a choice, that outside force usually being a time traveler, and cannot exist alongside the original timeline, instead replacing it.

Donna's World is actually a good example of the distinction between the two. What the Time Beetle does is reach into the victim's past, force a change on one decision, and rewrite the timeline as a result. This would land us in an alternate timeline, because the universe would compensate around the change, according to the Tenth Doctor. But, also according to the Tenth Doctor, that's not what happened with Donna. Instead, a whole new parallel universe formed around her. We never really got an explanation for why that happened, but I believe the implication is that this happened because of Dalek Caan and the DoctorDonna.

Now, in the case with this story, we have unique circumstances. Reality diverges at the point where the Fourth Doctor chooses whether to destroy the Daleks or not. We have the reality where the Fourth Doctor chose not to destroy the Daleks aka our reality. We also have the reality where the Doctor chose to destroy the Daleks, aka this story. But, this choice is at the center of a stable time loop. By the logic of a stable time loop, the Doctor should choose not to destroy the Daleks every time, because that choice being made is part of the loop. But, due to the logic of divergent realities, there must also exist a reality where the Doctor chooses to destroy the Daleks. And thus we have a paradox unlike any we have ever seen. Not only is the future different in this reality when it diverged from the main universe, but so is the past. Because the Fourth Doctor destroyed the Daleks, he could not have been sent by the Time Lords to destroy the Daleks. And yet, he was only on Skaro because they did send him. This paradox is why the Sixth Doctor is able to exist at the same time as the Warrior, even though the Fourth Doctor becomes the Warrior instead of the Fifth Doctor, followed by the Sixth.

The Doctor has traveled in time many times and played a role in history in many ways, both in past and future incarnations. As an example, I'll mention the Fifth Doctor's visit to London in 1666, where he causes the Great Fire. Prior to the Fourth Doctor making his choice, Sarah and Harry would certainly have known of the Great Fire. But, they're in the reality where the Fourth Doctor chooses to destroy the Daleks and regenerates into the Warrior, instead of the Fifth Doctor. The Great Fire could not have possibly happened in this reality, and yet, prior to the Fourth Doctor making the choice, it did. That was the history of this universe prior to the Fourth Doctor choosing to destroy the Daleks. It was identical to the history in our universe. But the moment he made the choice, history in this universe changed. The Fifth Doctor never existed. He never visited London in 1666. He never caused the Great Fire. The Great Fire never happened. And thus, the road on that side of the gap or wall decays, warps, etc. But the road on the other side of the gap/wall remains as straight and pristine as ever. It is not affected, because it is separate from the decayed road. It's 1666 is still the same as before, with the Fifth Doctor causing the Great Fire, because in the timeline on that road, the Fourth Doctor chose not to destroy the Daleks and the stable time loop remained intact. And its Sixth Doctor never found himself in a Time War where an alternate version of his previous incarnation wants to kill him. That is our universe, the main Doctor Who universe. But, in the universe of the other road, its Sixth Doctor did find himself in this situation, with his own past falling apart as time changed around him, as he is no longer the destiny of the Doctor in this universe. And it's all because of a fluke in reality, where a universe formed for a choice that a stable time loop says should not have been able to be made.

Auld Mortality & A Storm of Angels are a parallel universe. Sympathy for the Devil & Masters of War are a parallel universe. He Jests at Scars... is a parallel universe. It's as simple as that. The only difference here is that the other decision was far more than a single deviation. Regardless of what you think of this, I will say one thing for sure. It has been fun for me to explore this question with the rest of you. Just contemplating the paradox has been an exciting thing. This is the last time I'll make a counter-argument on this topic. After this, whatever decision that is reached here is one I will abide by. I've said what I've wanted to say. Perhaps I've made a point. Perhaps I'm overthinking things. Make of it what you will. I will note one thing. The Valeyard and Mel from He Jests at Scars... are currently treated as separate people from the main versions of the Valeyard and Mel. They have their own separate pages. If the final decision here is to list these characters as an alternate timeline on the main version's page, the same should be done for these two as well. DarkXaven ☎ 10:29, 19 April 2022 (UTC)