Talk:The Name of the Doctor (TV story)

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My theory

I know this is speculation. But instead of being an "8.5" or the "Real 9th Doctor", I reckon John Hurt will be playing an older Eighth Doctor. In the flashbacks, there was no Eighth Doctor, in the time stream sequence at the end when they were running past, there was no Eighth Doctor.

This way, none of the regenerations get messed around and from a story perspective it can still make perfect sense, not to mention, the costuming is a mix between 8 and 9. So that's my theory, John Hurt is playing an older 8th Doctor.

We do see the Eighth Doctor, in the Second Doctor scene. Cult Of Skaro Here.|Communicate here. 23:33, May 18, 2013 (UTC)
Where? Aliyoda ☎ 11:29, May 19, 2013 (UTC)
I agree with your theory; John Hurt does look conceivably like an older Paul McGann in the few pictures I've seen. It also makes sense that John Hurt would be playing a Last Great Time War-era Doctor, since the Eleventh Doctor knew what this version of himself had done and why that version of himself was such a secret. The only thing we don't know is whether Trenzalore is meant to be in the Eleventh's future or past...or both... Milar Kayne ☎ 23:42, May 18, 2013 (UTC)

Please move this discussion to Howling:The Howling, which is once again open. Article talk pages are for discussing the editing of the article, NOT for discussing theories, plot holes, speculation or the like. (See Tardis:Discussion policy.) Thanks! Shambala108 ☎ 23:48, May 18, 2013 (UTC)

What if Hurt's the fabled "Grandfather Paradox" the Doctor believed in when he was a child?

Multi-Doctor Story?

We have John Hurt introduced as the Doctor and he interacts with Eleven. Do we require a certain number of minutes of multi-Doctor interaction before we consider it a multi-Doctor story? Mewiet ☎ 23:28, May 18, 2013 (UTC)

There's also the scene with the First Doctor and Clara: "A multi-Doctor story is a story featuring two or more different incarnations of the Doctor. The list includes stories with flashback but excludes stories where the Doctor regenerates and stories featuring only pictures or archive footage of another incarnations." This scene is meant to be a flashback, new to viewers, and I thought that the scene with One and Susan walking into the TARDIS was shot with body doubles, not an archival clip. Mewiet ☎ 00:38, May 19, 2013 (UTC)

Tenth Doctor

Does the Tenth Doctor appear? The article says Clara sees him in the Library, but I've re-watched the pre-credits sequence and don't see it. Does it come later in the episode? --Btolsen ☎ 23:58, May 18, 2013 (UTC)

It's very fast, but you can see a screencap someone took here. Mewiet ☎ 00:03, May 19, 2013 (UTC)
There he is! Thanks! --Btolsen ☎ 00:18, May 19, 2013 (UTC)
That version happens to look like Oswinn Oswald from Asylum of the Daleks.
Why does the article say this is from Gridlock, then? 70.72.211.35talk to me 15:46, May 19, 2013 (UTC)
Not sure why the article said it was missing from the iTunes version. I just watched it, and the scene was in there, so I corrected it.
Yea, I've watched this episode a half dozen times now, there is a mistake on the article that keeps being "Reverted". Inside the timestream the following doctors are seen in order. First, Sixth, Tenth, Ninth and Fourth. the 10th runs past Clara from behind, people keep removing or claiming it's the 5th. No it's not, coat is too long, wrong size and the shadow doctor has short dark hair, not long blonde hair like the 5th. - 121.45.176.155talk to me 14:23, May 20, 2013 (UTC)
It was the fifth. You can even see the red stripes on the coat. Cult Of Skaro Here.|Communicate here. 14:36, May 20, 2013 (UTC)

Planet Name

Alright, one of my main questions is:

When did the planet change from Pellinor to Tanzalor? --Spiritcrusher77 ☎ 01:38, May 19, 2013 (UTC)

I think it was always Trenzalore... Milar Kayne ☎ 02:28, May 19, 2013 (UTC)
No, remember, Dorium said that the Doctors name would be revealed 'In the fields of Pellinor, when no one can lie, the question will be ask. The First Question. Doctor, Who?' At least, I remember the words The fields of Pellinor. --Spiritcrusher77 ☎ 03:15, May 19, 2013 (UTC)
I can check, but I'm pretty sure you just misheard it...it seems to have always been stated as "Trenzalore." Milar Kayne ☎ 03:19, May 19, 2013 (UTC)
Well, see what it says. --Spiritcrusher77 ☎ 03:28, May 19, 2013 (UTC)
In The Wedding of River Song (TV story), it is definitely Trenzalore. As far as I know, it isn't mentioned anywhere else. Also note that searching the TARDIS Data Core for "Pellinor" turns up nothing. It was quite certainly Trenzalore from the start. Milar Kayne ☎ 03:46, May 19, 2013 (UTC)
You're right. I listened to it again. It's Trenzaalore. Thanks. --Spiritcrusher77 ☎ 03:51, May 19, 2013 (UTC)
Glad to help! :D Milar Kayne ☎ 04:00, May 19, 2013 (UTC)

The God Complex

So, in The God Complex, The Doctor sees his greatest fear behind a door, but we the viewer do not see it. Is it possible that his greatest fear is his secret? RobbieNewton1 ☎ 08:15, May 19, 2013 (UTC)

Only seeing Eleven Faces

What if The Doctor knew Clara was going to jump into the Time Stream to save him and created a multiple time stream when he died. One stream of 1-11 up to The Name of the Doctor and another stream of 11-End?

It all makes sense

It all makes sense now. John Hurt is the Lost Doctor. I've heard about this rumor earlier but this makes it clear. John Hurt is the true 9th Doctor in between the 8th Doctor and Christopher Eccleston's 9th Doctor. However, they were able to incorporate this game-changing revelation. In the episode, it's stated that Hurt's Doctor didn't act in the name of the Doctor. This means that while this makes Eccleston the 10th incarnation, Tennant the 11th incarnation, and Smith the 12th incarnation, they still remain as the 9th, 10th, and 11th Doctors respectively. It's also cool how this was the meaning of the episode's title. The title didn't mean the Doctor's true name but rather the Doctor's incarnations acting in the name of the Doctor, save for Hurt's incarnation.

The was my first thought. Then I thought maybe he is a earlier version of the First Doctor. We all know that the Doctor has a very "mysterious and dark" side when he was younger, before he left Gallifrey. It is alluded to over and over during the 7th Doctor's run.--Deb1701 13:01, May 19, 2013 (UTC)
As Shambala108 said above, there's a better place for this discussion on the Howlings page, but here's a quick argument against the "Lost Doctor" idea: If Trenzalore was meant to be the site of the "Fall of the Eleventh," and there is a lost regeneration of the Doctor, then Matt Smith is the Twelfth and David Tennant is the Eleventh. But this means that it would have been Tennant who came to Trenzalore, not Smith. Even though the Doctor says that Hurt did not act "in the name of the Doctor," it would not change the fact that Hurt's being a separate regeneration would shift the count completely. Note that the prophecy says only "Fall of the Eleventh," and not "Fall of the Eleventh Doctor." Thus, it is unlikely that Hurt is meant to lie between 8 and 9. Milar Kayne ☎ 13:57, May 19, 2013 (UTC)

Eighth Doctor

Is the Eighth Doctor in this episode? I've watched the scene where he supposedly appears multiple times, but I can't see him. Does anyone have a screenshot? Aliyoda ☎ 12:12, May 19, 2013 (UTC)

You can barely see him running a second before the Second Doctor. --HarveyWallbanger ☎ 12:17, May 19, 2013 (UTC)
Anyone have a screencap? --Deb1701 12:59, May 19, 2013 (UTC)
http://24.media.tumblr.com/e4d19d065fd80e47939abdfde4e69f5f/tumblr_mn0dqbg9TK1qapfimo1_400.gif 86.23.101.56talk to me 12:58, May 19, 2013 (UTC)
Thanks--Deb1701
The BBC likes to have to deal with the least amount of footage involving the Eighth Doctor as possible; because of how the TV movie was produced and published, they have to deal with 20th Century Fox and Universal Studios for use of footage. That'd just be a giant hassle, so they've not worried themselves doing it. The Eighth we see is that scene is a double, and 'new footage,' hence why you don't see his face and makes him hard to identify.--Scieran ☎ 13:07, May 19, 2013 (UTC)

When the Doctor is looking at his "body" - light column - and hears the voices, these are played too:

"They're still in the nursery compared to us!" - Sixth Doctor, 'The Trial of a Time Lord'

"The daisiest daisy..." The Third Doctor, 'The Time Monster'

"Some corners of the universe have bred the most terrible things..." Second Doctor, 'Tomb of the Cybermen'

"Do I have the right?" The Fourth Doctor, 'Genesis of the Daleks'

Doctor Aliases used

So the Great Intelligence calls the Doctor a few names, and I get the references to The Valeyard, and presumably "Storm" is "The Oncoming Storm". But he's also referred to as "The Beast" at the same time as those other two, and I don't remember the reference here. Is this a reference to a past name of the Doctor? Or is this foreshadowing?

Noting that Aliases of the Doctor doesn't include Beast.

--209.6.91.193talk to me 14:14, May 19, 2013 (UTC)

The Beast could just a mistranslation of The Predator, as used by the Daleks. They're similar in connotations. --Scieran ☎ 14:30, May 19, 2013 (UTC)

I'm not certain of this, but it may be referring to the time that The Eighth Doctor was possessed by Zagreus in the Big Finish story of the same name. It sounds unlikely, but I know that Moffat has listened to at least some of the Big Finish audios, and it's a less tentative link than linking it to The Satan Pit. 213.120.211.66talk to me 13:24, May 20, 2013 (UTC)

The Doctor's had a lot of enemies, and presumably will have a lot more in his future as well. Even if he hasn't explicitly been called "The Beast" before, it's a reasonable guess that someone out there will refer to him that way at some point. I don't think they were explicitly referencing any particular instance, so I wouldn't link it to anything at this time. Spreee ☎ 16:58, May 20, 2013 (UTC)Spreee

The TARDIS Engineers

Who are these two guys? The one with the welding kit looked suspiciously like Moritz Belibtreu...

River Song's location

In the Continuity section, it says "River Song appears from the databanks of the Library Data Core". Is this stated? Because all of the participants of the seance received an invitation. I assumed this was earlier in River Song's timeline, not after her death. If it is, how could Madame Vastra have gotten a message to her? It must be earlier, before the events in the Library.

Is it just inferred because River talked about not getting a goodbye from The Doctor? That could happen after any adventure as they never really knew when they would see each other again until the final events of Forest of the Dead (TV story). In that episode, River says "The last time I saw you, the real you, the future you, I mean, you turned up on my doorstep, with a new haircut and a suit. You took me to Darillium to see the Singing Towers. What a night that was. The Towers sang, and you cried." Does it sound like this has even happened yet? It could even be the Twelfth. Badwolff ☎ 19:54, May 19, 2013 (UTC)

Actually, she clearly states being dead, so yes, she's definitely coming from the CAL data core. Beside, the night he took her to the Singing Towers was already shown in the Serie 6 mini episode Last Night--Gulinux ☎ 21:16, May 19, 2013 (UTC)
When the Doctor sees the headstone with River's name on it, the psychic projection of River tells Clara that she's dead; when they're running through the tunnels to the catacombs, River tells Clara about the Tenth Doctor uploading her to the Data Core of the Library - "put me on a shelf like one of the books," or something along those lines, I'm paraphrasing. And when she and the Doctor have their confrontation, she notes that he didn't come back to say goodbye because he hates endings. Her clothing is also similar to the last thing you see River wearing in the computer simulation at the end of Forest of the Dead. Hope that clears everything up. TARDIStraveler ☎ 17:05, May 20, 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for clearing this up. I usually miss some of the dialogue and frequently read over the episode transcript because so much information flows by so fast in 45 minutes. Badwolff ☎ 20:28, May 21, 2013 (UTC)

Disagree on the meaning of "silence"

Also, in Continuity it says "The prophecy of the First Question is referred to again, and silence indeed falls." Huh? If there is a silence, it is very brief.

Plus, I thought it was pretty clear that the prophecy didn't mean "a moment without sound" but The Silence, the group, falling. If it was just referring to a moment of silence, then why on Earth would The Silence go to such great lengths to try to kill The Doctor? I can't see how they are affected by this episode since it is not happening "at the fall of the Eleventh." Badwolff ☎ 19:59, May 19, 2013 (UTC)

Well, "silence falling" could also be referred to stars going out. Anyway we still don't have many clues to Moffat agenda.. It is unknown why the Silence really wanted the Doctor dead (to prevent someone breaking in his timeline and destroy everything he saved? well killing him would still mean exposing his timeline to everyone.. not a great plan), nor why the Tardis exploded in season 6, so all this is just speculation--Gulinux ☎ 21:28, May 19, 2013 (UTC)
No, it as made quite clear why the Silence want him dead and to what "silence will fall" refers to in "The Wedding of River Song". The Doctor realizes that "silence will fall" refers to his silence; his death, and Dorium states that the Silence believe "silence must fall when the Question is asked" and that they are determined to prevent the Doctor from reaching Trenzalore. This means that the Silence's goal is to kill the Doctor before he can reach Trenzalore, thus preventing the Question from being answered (since if the Doctor were dead, the Question could only be met with silence, as there would be no one there to answer) and furthermore, preventing the Great Intelligence from gaining access to the Doctor's timeline and undoing all the good he's ever done. Ensephylon ☎ 00:31, May 20, 2013 (UTC)
Keep in mind that the Silence formed as a result of the prophecy, not because they made the prophecy. Furthermore, it is not clear what is meant by "silence" in "Silence will fall." It could be the Silence, as seen by their efforts, or it could mean physical silence, either of the Doctor or of the universe. Keep in mind that Prisoner Zero prophecied, "Silence will fall. The Pandorica is opening." In this case, he meant not the fall of the Silence but the fall of silence on the universe as everything is unmade. If the prophecy was fulfilled in Name of the Doctor, then silence falling would be the disappearance of the stars as time was rewritten. Otherwise, the prophecy is as yet unfulfilled and the falling of silence similar to that at the Pandorica is only a secondary similarity. Milar Kayne ☎ 03:43, May 20, 2013 (UTC)
No, because as you said, "silence will fall" is the Silence's response to the actual prophecy, which makes no mention of silence. "Silence will fall" is the Silence's core belief; their mission statement. As Dorium said, "silence must fall," and the Doctor "must never reach Trenzalore." The Doctor himself later realized that it was his silence that was meant to fall when the Question was asked, and modeled the scenario for Churchill. "Suppose there were a man who knew a secret... how would you erase that secret from the world before it could be spoken?" Churchill said that if he had to, he would "destroy the man," to which the Doctor responded, "and silence would fall." His silence, because if he were dead, he could no longer answer the Question. The Silence wants him dead before he gets to Trenzalore so that he can't answer the Question. "Silence" has no relation to the actual prophecy or to the stars going out when the GI corrupts his timeline. Those are the things that the Silence wishes to avert. For silence to fall is simply what the Silence wishes to make happen; they want silence to fall when the Question is asked, and they intended to make it happen by killing the Doctor prematurely and making it so that he will not be able to speak his name at Trenzalore. Ensephylon ☎ 03:54, May 20, 2013 (UTC)
So basically the Silence modified the prophecy to fit their own uses? What you seem to be saying (and I may be completely misunderstanding) is that the Silence tried to kill him to prevent him from getting to a fixed point in his own timeline and to keep him from revealing his name. However, it seems to me that your interpretation contradicts itself, since they are trying to avert the prophecy by causing his silence to fall early--an act that would destroy the universe anyway. Thus, I think that interpreting "Silence will fall" as referring to the death of the universe is at least an alternative theory, even if it is not confirmed yet as being the proper one. Milar Kayne ☎ 04:09, May 20, 2013 (UTC)
No, that's not what I'm saying. "Silence must fall" isn't a prophecy, it's a belief. The Silence believe that the Doctor must never reach Trenzalore and that his silence must fall when the Question is asked. If they kill him before he can get to Trenzalore, then when the Question is asked, it will be met with silence, because the only person who can answer the Question (aside from River, who everyone seems to forget to account for but who wouldn't be there anyway if the Doctor were dead) is dead. However, they failed to kill him, so he went to Trenzalore, and, had River not intervened and answered for him, he would have answered the GI's question and given him access to the tomb. That's what the Silence want to prevent by killing the Doctor early, because if the GI invades the Doctor's tomb, he will undo all of the good deeds that the Doctor did and cause the universe to break down. As the "sentinels of history," they would probably want to keep it safe. Simply killing the Doctor at Lake Silencio won't cause the universe to collapse (or at least it wouldn't have, if River had done as she was supposed to), and all of the worlds that he saved would still be there. However, if the GI goes into the Doctor's timeline (which he can only do if the Question is answered), he tears apart the Doctor's history and endangers all of time and space. Killing the Doctor at Lake Silencio is the lesser of two evils, as it prevents the Doctor from being able to answer the Question and giving the GI access to his tomb. The original, actual prophecy makes no mention of silence falling, so that isn't something that would normally be fulfilled at Trenzalore. Silence would only have fallen if the Silence had succeeded in killing the Doctor before he could get to Trenzalore. Ensephylon ☎ 05:03, May 20, 2013 (UTC)
Well, if you're sure about this, then feel free to reword the continuity note. However, it is relevant to note the disappearance of the stars and collapse of reality that reflects what happened in The Pandorica Opens and The Big Bang. Milar Kayne ☎ 06:54, May 20, 2013 (UTC)

I think this is set after the time of the Silence fall on Trenzalore. The Doctor fought the Silence there causing them to fall, but maybe this caused his final death and as he was dying he requested the tomb to be built and sealed it with his name.A-Smk ☎ 23:08, May 19, 2013 (UTC)

Some really interesting ideas, folks. It gives me even more to mull over in the long wait until November (and I doubt we'll get an answer then!). Badwolff ☎ 20:27, May 21, 2013 (UTC)

Production Errors

Are we really sure to consider Vastra not being reverted to her "primal personality" a production error? The effects of the Doctor timeline rewritten are gradual: first we see some stars going out, then Jenny disappears, then Strax reverts to his sontaran personality. We could just assume Vastra would have been reverted later.--Gulinux ☎ 21:30, May 19, 2013 (UTC)

It's interesting that Clara said specifically that she had seen 11 faces and that the current Doctor is the 11th Doctor. Why didn't she see any of the Doctor's future incarnations? Surely the Great Intelligence would have been interfering with them as well? It's hard to believe that Moffatt was implying that 11 would be the final Doctor. 67.70.37.55talk to me 03:29, May 20, 2013 (UTC)

Most likely that's a way to keep from introducing spoilers, especially since we don't know yet whether John Hurt is the Eighth, Ninth, or Twelfth Doctor. If they don't have actors for the future Doctors, then they can't show them. Furthermore, it would just seem wrong for Clara to tell the Doctor how many regenerations he has left...that just doesn't seem like Moffat's type of plot line. I think he's just implying that Clara now knows the past regenerations of the Doctor--not necessarily that the Eleventh is the last. Milar Kayne ☎ 16:44, May 21, 2013 (UTC)

Actors

Can whoever played the various incarnations of the Doctor who were not taken from old film, be added to the character list? And Susan Foreman as well (as she's seen getting into a TARDIS at the very beginning) -- 65.94.76.126talk to me 08:46, May 20, 2013 (UTC)

Possible continuity reference?

Anyone else notice that the hole in the TARDIS window when they land on Trenzalore appears to be the same size and shape as the hole Melody "Mels" Pond accidentally shoots in the TARDIS during TV:Let's Kill Hitler? Is this perhaps a nod back to that episode? Milar Kayne ☎ 17:04, May 20, 2013 (UTC)

Fall of the Eleventh

Has it been officially confirmed that the Doctor's turning off the anti-grav system was meant by "Fall of the Eleventh"? Is it possible that his fall also refers to the Great Intelligence changing his timeline? Milar Kayne ☎ 17:18, May 20, 2013 (UTC)

I'd say that either one is plausible, but personally, I think it was turning of the anti-grav, since the Question is asked at the fall of the eleventh. Falling when the Great Intelligence altered his timeline occurred after the Question was already asked. The way the prophecy is worded, the fall of the eleventh seems to be a prerequisite for the Question being asked. And I do think that there was some significance in the Doctor correcting Clara's "do we jump?" with" no, we fall." Ensephylon ☎ 18:49, May 20, 2013 (UTC)
That makes sense. I'm just wary of making statements about the prophecy's fulfillment at this point because, as far as I know--and that's an important qualifier--it hasn't been officially confirmed that the prophecy has been fulfilled. Also, I'm keeping in mind that Moffat is apparently known for playing with semantics, so that it's difficult to predict when a foreshadowing or prophecy has been completed, or how it will be done. Good reasoning, though! I think I'll accept your explanation, at least unless we get information otherwise. Milar Kayne ☎ 21:18, May 20, 2013 (UTC)
I never consider that it was a literal "fall" as when he, miraculously fell, without injury, from orbit to the planet's surface. I thought "the fall of the Eleventh" referred to his death and regeneration. I've seen on other discussion threads that some are thinking "the silence must fall" is a literal moment of silence (no sound) rather than the fall of The Silence. Badwolff ☎ 20:23, May 21, 2013 (UTC)

Is there a place to add where the clips from the past Doctors from

After reading this article http://news.thedoctorwhosite.co.uk/the-name-of-the-doctor-past-references/ , it notes the other serials from which the past Doctor clips are lifted from, The first Doctor one where we see his face are from The Aztecs and Second Doctors come from the Five Doctors, also the Sixth Doctor and the montage running Doctors, plus parts of the First Doctor are newly filmed segments. Which section can we place this in, is we can? AdricLovesNyssa 19:36, May 20, 2013 (UTC)

Were any of the clips modified to include Clara by replacing some other character or extra, or was she placed into archival footage in areas without other characters/extras ? -- 65.94.76.126talk to me 00:00, May 22, 2013 (UTC)
Yeah, she replaced Leela in one shot. You can see the picture in the link AdricLovesNyssa posted.  Digifiend  Talk  PR/SS  KR  MH  Toku  JD  Garo  TH  CG  UM  Logos  CLG  DW  13:00,22/5/2013 

Doctor with facial hair

Should we mention in the article that John Hurt's incarnation is one of the rare times on-screen that we see the Doctor with facial hair? Paul Benjamin Austin ☎ 06:42, May 21, 2013 (UTC)

People are still debating whether he is The Doctor! I'm not sure that is settled yet. Badwolff ☎ 20:24, May 21, 2013 (UTC)

Well, he's some form of the Doctor, whether he's a legitimate incarnation, an in-between form, or alternate version, or something else. It seems reasonable to list him as one of the few times we've seen the Doctor with facial hair. --Bold Clone 20:34, May 21, 2013 (UTC)

What are we calling the Clara doubles?

Doubles? Echoes? Imprints? Do we borrow from Chris Cwej and the Cwejen and call then the Claren? I used 'echoes' in one article and 'time-copy' in another, but I wasn't sure if anyone had come to some sort of unifying agreement. TARDIStraveler ☎ 11:09, May 22, 2013 (UTC)

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