Talk:List of titles that reference other works

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Revision as of 14:02, 29 August 2024 by LegoK9 (talk | contribs) (→‎Laws)

Recursive references

How do we deal with stories that reference DWU titles that are already references? Arguably The Two Irises or The Two Jasons are references to The Two Doctors moreso than to The Three Doctors, even as The Two Doctors was itself a reference to The Three Doctors… What should we do? Footnotes? List them twice?

Actually, there's already a non-DWU example. A Comedy of Terrors: reference to Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors — or to the Vincent Price film actually called The Comedy of Terrors?

Then there are the references to Doctor Who-related non-fiction. (Which pose their own puzzle besides. What Has Happened to the Magic of 'Doctor Who'? is currently wedged in the general "non-fiction" table but that hardly seems ideal…) The Doctor's Tale evokes, yes, the segments within the Canterburty Tales, which the setting bears out; but to a Whovian it evokes RTD's own riff on the title format in The Writer's Tale. The two things called Lost in Time are at some level Lost in Space jokes, but there's also the seminal missing episodes collection to think of… --Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 01:15, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

Not sure what's with the placement of What Has Happened..., as that one is definitely fiction. It's a parody of Doctor Who fans, culminating in a Doctor Who letter from 2063 involving all sorts of wacky things. 02:29, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
The tables are sorted by medium of the thing being referenced, not of the referencer. --Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 04:24, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
I think this is fairly simple. If the work references a particular rendition of the title, that is the work we should say it is referencing. With an explanatory footnote, of course. We are already doing this for The Three Doctors and The Five Doctors on this page. I think this is an extension of the "for the sake of simplicity" rule given in the lead, albeit with a somewhat different outcome. There are cases which warrant duplication, such as Snow White and the Seven Keys to Doomsday, which references both Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs and The Seven Keys to Doomsday in a portmanteau of titles. As for The Doctor's Tale, I'm not sure we have any evidence that The Writer's Tale was even considered when naming the story? It never even crossed my mind. Danochy ☎ 08:13, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

Some interesting cases

How would we deal with The Vardon Horse and The Trojan Dalek, clearly they reference the Trojan Horse, but that is a term that comes much later than the works they are referencing. Furthermore there is no one work which features the horse that we could say is being referenced.

Is AUDIO: The Bonfires of the Vanities a reference to the 1497 event or the 1987 novel? Danochy ☎ 11:48, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

There's also AUDIO: The Elysian Blade, which references the Elysian Fields. Perhaps we could have a new section for mythological or folkloric allusions? Danochy ☎ 12:18, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
PROSE: Twilight of the Gods / Twilight of the Gods / COMIC: Twilight of the Silurians may be a reference to Ragnarok or maybe to Götterdämmerung? Danochy ☎ 12:33, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
AUDIO: Shadow of Death is a Biblical reference. Danochy ☎ 12:50, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
As is Decalog to Decalogue Danochy ☎ 23:25, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

We Only Live Twice (But the City Is Not Enough) poses a bit of a problem for this page's categorisation system. It's referencing two James Bond titles at once. Problem being that You Only Live Twice was first published as a novel while The World Is Not Enough was a film original. How should something like this be handled? Should the entry be duplicated across multiple sections? Something else? Fennel Soup ☎ 03:49, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

I think it should be placed twice, once for each work it is referencing. Danochy ☎ 04:59, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

Interplanetary Rescue

I’m not sure Interplanetary Rescue [+]Loading...["Interplanetary Rescue (comic story)"] should count for this - it’s a Thunderbirds crossover story whose title references International Rescue, who are featured in the story itself. This is like if every Dalek story we covered was listed as a reference to The Daleks [+]Loading...["The Daleks (TV story)"], in my opinion. Cookieboy 2005 ☎ 13:41, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

That makes sense. I'll go ahead and remove it. LegoK9 ☎ 21:32, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

Titles should be intentional references

Only include stories if we have reason to believe the title is an intentional reference. I'm removing a few entries:

LegoK9 ☎ 21:47, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

I agree with the ethos, but Fugitive strikes me as a genuine one unless proven otherwise. "Fugitive of the [Classic Doctor Who Monster]" is a weird, arguably-grammatically-iffy phrase which had no presence at all before Fugitive of the Judoon; and Fugitive of the Judoon was a huge, huge deal. I think a new "Fugitive of the…" after it should be assumed to be riffing on its title format just as much as something called "Remembrance of the Sontarans" or whatever should be understood as a reference to Remembrance of the Daleks unless proven otherwise. --Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 22:08, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
Yeah, while it sounds generic, Fugitive of the Judoon seems to be the definitive version of that title and it seems a likely reference point. The point on Light at the End is fair, though the vampire novel in question was a highly influential bestseller, it's not just some random book. Future Imperfect seems to have been the title for three separate works from 1990-1992, and Marc Platt probably was watching Star Trek. But yeah, they're all a play on Future perfect tense, so hard to say for sure. Danochy ☎ 22:22, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
What about Prisoner of the Judoon and Prisoner of the Daleks? (Not to mention Prisoner of the Ood.) I have no reason those are intentional homages to each other. Is Terror of the Sontarans an homage to Terror of the Autons? [Blank] of the [Villain] is a basic title format. I would like to see more evidence that it is an intentional homage. LegoK9 ☎ 22:30, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
The evidence to me is their release being only a few years apart and the lack of use of "Fugitive of the X" in media in general (titles with Prisoner and Terror are much more common). I have managed to find one example though: Fugitive of the Plains. Danochy ☎ 22:42, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
And note that doesn't actually match the 'orrible no-good grammar of the Who examples. The Fugitive of the Plains isn't running from Plains in hot pursuit! No one before Fugitive of the Judoon had used a title that goes "Fugitive of the [group of people who are hunting them]". It's… not actually cromulent English, or anyway it wasn't; of such things are language shifts made. --Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 22:45, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
Any thoughts on The Dispossessed (audio story)? It's not like LeGuinn is obscure, but from the synopsis it seems to have nothing to do with the novel. Najawin ☎ 21:38, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
I'm not sure, I'm inclined to say yes, but also it's the sort of ghostly pun you might come up with naturally. Maybe it's mentioned in the BFX somewhere. I have a few I'm unsure about too, what about AUDIO: Scenes From Her Life / Mary Magdalene with Eight Scenes from her Life and AUDIO: The House on the Edge of Chaos / The House on the Edge of the Park? Danochy ☎ 22:05, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

Family Matters (audio story), Family Matters is another one where it could just be a name. Najawin ☎ 00:38, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

Also there's a bunch of "Who killed..." story titles that could be references to Twin Peaks but might not be. Hard to tell example to example. Najawin ☎ 05:25, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

Whoniverse nonfiction and reference books

How to deal with those? Make a separate heading for them here? Just include them in with everything else (after all, the REF prefix exists…)? Should the list start including them, even?

On the one hand, the title Memoirs of an Edwardian Adventurer is nearly as clear-cut a reference to that specific phrase in Storm Warning as possible — and The Unsilent Library: Essays on the Russell T. Davies Era of the new Doctor Who references Silence in the Library as surely as that — and I think cases like these would be fruitful to document…

On the other hand we have the Black Archive series — which are always just titled identically to the corresponding episode. This might be considered a reference, if you stretch things, but it doesn't really fit the spirit of what this page was created to document. I think this works as an extension of an already-articulated principle… just as the Daleks are, for example, the subjects of the episode Destiny of the Daleks, and thus it doesn't count as a reference to the serial The Daleks, so the story Pyramids of Mars is the subject of the Black Archive about it, so the latter doesn't count as a reference. It's a bit of a stretch, and one must be careful to not over-stretch this, but it sort of works…

And then there's edge cases like The Eleventh Hour: A Critical Celebration of the Matt Smith and Steven Moffat Era. See what I meant about overstretching? The episode The Eleventh Hour is part of the book's subject, and the episode's title is reproduced in its entirety, but this is also a play on the title and the fact that it's about the Eleventh Doctor era — see the next book in the series(?) (which doesn't have a page here yet) being titled Twelfth Night, for the Twelfth Doctor. But it's also the exact same play on words that the episode already had when it was aired — the era it opens is why it's titled the way it is!… Complicated.

jsmith5504talk to me 23:56, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

Unless we have the case of a reference book itself being referenced, a new heading shouldn't be necessary, as all your examples are reference books quoting other works. As far as the Black Archive is concerned, of course we shouldn't count an analysis of a work as referencing that work, in the same way we don't include adaptations of other DWU works here. The series as a whole might count as a reference to the Black Archive though... Your example of The Eleventh Hour does raise a good point, however. I'd argue we should include it here, but only because it is about more than just The Eleventh Hour, if you get my meaning. Danochy ☎ 00:47, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

Harry Houdini's War

I think AUDIO: Harry Houdini's War is more likely to be a reference to PROSE: Harry Sullivan's War (1986) than the 2003 novel Charlie Wilson's War. Although maybe both Harry stories are references to something even earlier? Danochy ☎ 21:57, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

Very possible! The movie of the book was quite popular though, so it could go either way. I just noticed it in the list of Main Range and it jumped out to me. I'd have no objection to changing it or removing it. Najawin ☎ 22:04, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
It's the use of Harry in both which sells it to me. The only earlier version of that form of title that I've been able to find is Hitler's War, which seems an unusual one to reference, and only uses the surname. I'll go ahead and make the change now. Danochy ☎ 22:15, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
I'd have thought they — alongside Susan's War and Dionus's War — were all riffing on Foyle's War. --Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 23:12, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
I mean, Harry Sullivan can't have, no? And Charlie Wilson's could, theoretically do so, but October to April is a bit tight, and the book says the copyright is actually 2002, which makes it harder. Seems like this is at least 2 distinct geneses of the same format, if not 3. And my guess is 3. I do see the Susan and Dionus ones, but for Harry Houdini, the issue is that it's two names, not just one, which places it closer to the other two. Najawin ☎ 23:30, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

Laws

So this is a bit of a headache. Do we want to open this up to references to the law? It's not really "nonfiction literature" (though I object to Groundwork being categorized as such, but w/e), it's its own sort of thing. I'm pretty sure Freedom of Information (audio story) is referencing specifically Freedom of Information Act (United States) (it seems to be the first public information law to use the term "freedom of information", at least from a quick skim of wiki). But I'm not sure laws are categorically similar to the other things in this list, except perhaps sayings. Najawin ☎ 22:01, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

I think law would definitely be something worth documenting on this page, it's absolutely still a "work". It would need its own section though, as you imply. Danochy ☎ 22:19, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
COMIC: Official Secrets is a reference to the Official Secrets Act, so we have more than one example to work with! LegoK9 ☎ 14:02, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
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