Howling:How does everyone know the Time Lords are gone?

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So far in the New Series, we've had characters such as the Forest of Cheem woman in "The End of the World", Mr Finch in "School Reunion", the Sontarans in "The Sontaran Stratagem/The Poison Sky", and Lady Rosanna in "The Vampires of Venice", all displaying intimate knowledge of the Time Lords' ultimate destruction at the hands of the Doctor; the Time Lords are always spoken of in the past tense in all eras of history. How is this possible, it doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense to me. In the article in the 2005 annual, RTD stated that only the more highly evolved races were ever aware of the Time War, but now it's like everyone not only knows about it, but knows how it ended. EJA 17:24, April 5, 2011 (UTC)

All of those characters are members of more advanced races. Less advanced races, like modern-day humans, know little about the Time War, but more advanced races, that travel through space, know about the Time War. They don't know details, like how exactly it ended, but it must have been apparent to the entire universe that the Daleks and the Timelords dissappeared after the war ended. The reason that it is always spoken of in the past tense is that the war was fought across all of time. It has always happened, even though in the classic series, the Timelords hadn't experienced it yet.Icecreamdif 20:28, April 5, 2011 (UTC)

But what about all the Time Lords BEFORE they were blown up? They aren't bound by time, so they should still be around somewhere. So speaking of the current Doctor as the last of his kind is a bit meaningless. Sure, he's the last in his personal timeline, but not in the timeline of the rest of the universe. EJA 20:25, April 28, 2011 (UTC)

The Time Lords weren't bound by time, but neither was whatever that wiped them out. --Bold Clone 20:35, April 28, 2011 (UTC)

By all logic the Time Lords should have been completely forgotten, throughout time and space. The Moment was a Demat Gun which wipes out all traces of those it destroys, unless the few Daleks and the Doctor that survived meant that by extention the race they belong are still remembered. --Revan\Talk 20:38, April 28, 2011 (UTC)

It doesn't make sense, does it? EJA 21:02, April 28, 2011 (UTC)

Nope, but in the end, how can a production team maintain coherent sense 48 years down the line and with hundreds of spin off projects going on all the time? --Revan\Talk 21:04, April 28, 2011 (UTC)

The thing is, in the new series, the Doctor will meet aliens who are indigenous to the Earth year 2010, and when he tells them who he is, they will recognise him as being the last of his race. But Sabalom Glitz was a native of the year 2,000,000 AD, and neither he nor anyone else of his timeframe ever said to the Doctor "You're the last of the Time Lords!" If people from 2010 know the Time Lords are gone, shouldn't those in all later eras?– The preceding unsigned comment was added by EJA (talk).

Not necessarily. As firmly stated in The Unquiet Dead, time can be rewritten. That's obviously the case here, with the time war having not happened.----Skittles the hog--Talk 21:26, April 28, 2011 (UTC)

The Time War did still happen though, because people know about it. EJA 21:37, April 28, 2011 (UTC)

What? I'm referencing Sabalom's non-knowledge.----Skittles the hog--Talk 21:52, April 28, 2011 (UTC)

In Doctor Who, time is nonlinear, so an event that hasn't happened yet in 2,000,000 AD could have already happened in 2010. All that matters is where in the timeline events are occuring from the Doctor's perspective. When the Time War happened, all Timelords were destroyed, and it was known that they were destroyed in every time zone, but before the war, it was known that they were still alive in every time zone. The Timelords have not been wiped from history. They still used to exist, but they don't exist anymore. It is not the same thing as when people fall into cracks in time. In The Invasion of Time the de-mat gun didn't seem to remove people from history, as people still remembered all the Sontarans that were killed. All it seemed to do was dematerialize them, like when the Timelords destroyed the War Lord and his guards in The War Games. Even if the de-mat gun did wipe people from history, it is still unlikely that the Doctor used it to destroy the Gallifrey. Only the Lord President has the power to construct it, and it is unlikely that Lord President Rassilon would have given the Doctor the Great Key. The de-mat gun was shown to be a handheld weapon that wouldn't possibly have the firepower to destroy an entire planet. Also, the Doctor has been repeatedly described as "burning" Gallifrey. The de-mat gun didn't burn people, so even if the Doctor could make a de-mat gun, and it was powerful enough to destroy Gallifrey, it would simply dematerialize the planet, rather than producing the described burning effect. When the Timelords and Daleks were destroyed in the Time War, time was not rewritten. All of the Dalek invasions still happened (apart from any that may have been erased by Genesis of the Daleks) and all of the Time Lord episodes still occured, including those that did not take place on Gallifrey. However, now the Timelords are dead in all time periods, and are unable to make new appearances, and the Daleks that don't look like they are made of plastic are dead, and are unable to invade other worlds.Icecreamdif 02:43, April 29, 2011 (UTC)

Question: If the Doctor went to visit someone like Sabalom Glitz in the new series, would Glitz be aware that Gallifrey and the Time Lords were dead, and the Doctor was the only one of his kind? EJA 09:29, April 29, 2011 (UTC)

It depends. If he's into current affairs then sure. There's no reason why not.----Skittles the hog--Talk 11:51, April 29, 2011 (UTC)

If Gallifrey was destroyed across all time zones, then all their appearances in the classic series would be negated. EJA 14:41, April 29, 2011 (UTC)

When Gallifrey was destroyed in "The Ancestor Cell", didn't it effectively destroy the universe and create an entirely new one where none of the classic series ever happened? EJA 16:25, April 29, 2011 (UTC)

Nope, Bullet Time, Wolfsbane and many other stories from the classic era still happened which interacted with that timeline. --Revan\Talk 16:27, April 29, 2011 (UTC)

Wasn't the Doctor's past altered though, so that he was no longer from Gallifrey (a world that had been deleted completely from history)? EJA 16:34, April 29, 2011 (UTC)

Oh, and how come so many people who meet him in the new series seem to instinctively know that the Doctor they see is the one who's survived the Time War? For all they know, he could be an incarnation who hasn't experienced those events in his personal timeline yet. EJA 19:33, April 29, 2011 (UTC)

If the Doctor was to meet Glitz again, Glitz would remember the past episodes where he encountered Timelords, but unless he is very uninformed he would know that the Timelords are gone now. It was the same thing in Death of the Doctor. Jo made some reference to going to Gallifrey, which the Doctor ignored, because she remembers Gallifrey being around from the classic series, and noone had told her that the planet had been destroyed in the new series. People instinctively know that the Doctor they meet is one who survived the Time War, because if he hadn't survived the Time War he wouldn't be walking around and talking to them. They know that he has already experienced those events in his personal timeline, because those events have already occured in the time line. In the classic series, nobody assumed that the Doctor was the last of the Timelords, because the Time War hadn't happened yet, but now that it has happened, he has clearly survived it.Icecreamdif 20:10, April 29, 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, but that makes absolutely no sense at all. If the Time Lords were cut off from all of time and space, all of their prior influence on the universe would be negated. Nobody would ever have heard of them in the first place. EJA 18:53, April 30, 2011 (UTC)

They weren't removed from time. They were kiled. They died at a point in Gallifreyan history after any that we saw in the classic series. Because they are all dead, they can't travel through time and space to the rest of the universe, so the rest of the univers knows that they are dead.Icecreamdif 18:58, April 30, 2011 (UTC)

That would only make sense if prior to their extinction, Time Lord activity was confined to the past, relative to us alive now. Aliens active in our present all know the Time Lords are gone, so Gallifrey's demise had to have happened before now. And before anyone tries to suggest that the Sontarans are one of those higher races that've been mentioned, let me point out that the Doctor in the classic series considered them to be far behind the Time Lords in terms of technology and temporal mechanics. EJA 21:59, April 30, 2011 (UTC)

The Timelords have time-travel technology, so whether they were killed in the past, present, or future, people will know about it. The Sontarans may be primitve compared to the Timelords, but so are most species. Compared to modern-day humans, the Sontarans are a higher species, and if anyone would know about the biggest war in creation, it would be the Sontarans. You may not think that it makes sense, but the show has pretty much confirmed it. In Death of the Doctor, Jo suggested that she would get the Doctor into trouble with the Timelords if she travelled with him. This suggests that she remembers episodes like The Three Doctors and The Planet of the Daleks where the Timelords interacted with them, not to mention the Doctor's exile. If characters didn't remember past Timelord episodes, Jo would remember the Doctor as having always been the last of the Timelords. Icecreamdif 22:22, April 30, 2011 (UTC)

If it's a historical fact by 2010 that the Time Lords are extinct, then all subsequent generations would proceed according to this knowledge. This would negate stories like "The Mysterious Planet", where the Time Lords were an active power in 2,000,000 AD. It would also negate "Brain of Morbius", where they interacted with Earth in the far future during the Morbius incident. You just can't have both scenarios; reality would tear itself apart and the entire universe would collapse. The rest of time isn't in synch with Gallifreyan time, you see? I hope you understand what I'm trying to say here. EJA 08:39, May 1, 2011 (UTC)

The Doctor is not the last of the Time Lords, because all those Time Lords who come from Gallifrey before the War are still around. They must be, otherwise none of the stuff we saw in the classic series would ever have happened. EJA 12:18, May 1, 2011 (UTC)

It is not a historical fact that the Timelords are extinct by 2010. It is a histroical fact that the Timelords are extincct by the end of the Last Great Time War, somewhere in the Rassilon Era. Every Timelord we have seen is from the Rassionl Era (with the possible exceptions of Omega and Rassilon), but characters from different points in history have interacted with Timelords from the Rassilon Era. In the Classic Series, we mostly just saw renegade Timelords leave Gallifrey. The only non-renegade Timelords we saw off of Gallifrey only left Gallifrey to speak with the Doctor (Genesis of the Daleks and Terror of the Autons) and did not remain away from home for long. As for the renegades, the Doctor was surprised to see the Master in Utopia. This suggests that he believes that the Master is dead, and does not believe that it is a Master from before the Time War. The fact that he constantly refers to himself as "the last of the Time Lords," and the fact that he didn't believe the Face of Boe when he said "you are not alone," pretty much prove that the other Time Lords are not there. Time is very complicated in the Whoniverse, and it can be very hard to make sense of, but the Time Lords are now dead in every time period, but they used to be alive in every time period.Icecreamdif 13:06, May 1, 2011 (UTC)

Ok, what about those Time Lords who attended that galactic conference in Proxima Centauri in the 30th century (This is a purely hypothetic scenario)? What happens with them? How do people react to them now, after the Time War? EJA 17:26, May 1, 2011 (UTC)

It gets very parodoxical then, if people did know of the Time War and told them then history would have changed for the Time Lords and something different could have happened about the war. Its best just to say that the chronicled event was the one that "mattered" so to speak. --Revan\Talk 17:31, May 1, 2011 (UTC)

But how do all these aliens know that the current Doctor is the one who survived the Time War? The numerous Doctors jump all across history, so one Doctor could arrive somewhere and see the effects that a future incarnation of himself had on the environment. The Doctor's personal timeline is not the same as everyone else's. EJA 18:04, May 1, 2011 (UTC)

The Time War was fought across time, so it has already happened in every time zone. The aliens all know that the Doctor has already survived the Time War, because the Time War has already happened in every time zone, so the Doctor has to have survived it. In the classic series, the Time War hadn't happened yet in any time zone, so none of the aliens the Doctor encountered knew that the Time War would happen, so they all knew that the Doctor hadn't fought in the Time War yet.Icecreamdif 22:38, May 1, 2011 (UTC)

For time travelers, causal past has nothing to do with chronological past. The Doctor's timeline jumps all around, but his memory follows the order he experienced those events in, not the chronological order in which they happened. He can remember meeting Zoe in 2050 because he did that centuries ago, and he can't remember meeting Captain Avery in 1650 because he hasn't done that yet. Memory is based on causality--things happen, that causes changes in your brain, and those changes in your brain are what memory is.

For non-time-travelers, things are usually a lot simpler. As long as no time traveler ever interferes with you directly, the things you experience as 2010 happen before the things you experience as 2011, and so on.

But in the LGTW, time travelers _did_ interfere directly. That's the whole point. The two sides removed themselves from history (so it doesn't even matter when it started, chronologically), and then fought a war across every time zone. Their war crossed every timeline at every point. So, that war is now in the causal past of not just the Doctor, but everyone he will ever meet, even non-time-travelers.

If this is too confusing, try reading the later EDAs and the FP books. They won't make anything clearer, but they'll be so much more confusing that you'll start to believe this stuff is simple. :) --99.33.26.0 06:12, May 5, 2011 (UTC)

What is the consequence of "The Doctor's Wife" with regards to this problem? There are the hypercubes, evidently pre-Time War, or concurrent with it (mentioning the High Council of the Time Lords), as well as the arm and other body parts of various Time Lords. It does not seem to fit well with the whole 'time lock' concept introduced quite definitely by the end of series four and the specials - here we see direct physical evidence of the existence of Time Lords. On top of this there appears to be no explicit mechanism in place to prevent the Doctor going back in time on House to interact with these Time Lords, had the TARDIS been functional at the time of course. So what is the verdict - significant numbers of surviving Time Lords (Doctor style) still using somewhat dated distress messages, or has the time lock somehow been broken? Poggin 10:10, May 18, 2011 (UTC)

Let's say House killed those Time Lords before the War. If so, they probably wouldn't have ever been inside the time lock. They were both dead and outside the universe when the War started, and when the lock went up, and nobody knew where the were, so who would have thought to include them, and how would they have been able to do so?

So, the reason the Doctor can't meet these Time Lords isn't the same as the reason he can't meet the rest; it's just the usual Law of Time about Time Lords having to meet each other in proper linear sequence. Now that he's been to the end of their timeline, he can't meet them anywhere earlier in it.

But there is a massive loophole, if Moffat wants it. The Five Doctors and a few other classic stories had lots of timeline crossing going on, and it was implied that this was a legal rule, or at worst a health-and-safety thing, rather than a physical law of nature. The novel Legacy of the Daleks confirmed it--the Doctor met the Master out of order (and may hve even radically changed the Master's timeline), and mused that he'd probably get a nasty slap on the wrist for doing so next time he dropped in on Gallifrey.

So, maybe the Doctor can't go visit his parents or Romana, but he can go visit the Corsair just by going back into the Corsair's past. It might be difficult or dangerous, or maybe the Doctor doesn't know how to do it, but if Moffat wants to write more Time Lord stories, that's an easy way out. --99.170.145.26 16:59, May 18, 2011 (UTC)

Hmm, I guess you are right on the fact that it is more likely to be an open end that Moffat has allowed for possible future plot development.

However, I do think there is more of an issue here. It is fine to say that the Corsair and the other Time Lord victims found House and were killed before the war began, or ended and was time locked. Thus it would seem logical that they, not at all involved or contemporary to the War, are not time locked. However, given this is a Time War, we have problems defining when it began, when it actually ended, and what period it's combat was confined to. Surely it this case, it must be said that these Time Lords were concurrent with the War at some point. In which case you might exclude them as non combatants, never having encountered the actual battles. But then this causes another problem, as the initial assumption made by the Doctor is that ALL the Time Lords and Daleks are gone - despite the fact there may have been many non-combatant Time Lords, and a significant number of Daleks in periods not involved with the war. By the non-combatant non-locked thinking, these would all still be accessible.

The issue really is that up until this point it has been clear that the Time Lock applied to all the Daleks and all the Time Lords (excepting a few stragglers), because of their species alone and regardless of combative status (nb, the Master, a definite combatant, escaped by use of the chameleon arc - reinforcement of this PoV). The Doctor has been consistently surprised when either of these species has turned up - the possibility of Time War non-combatants not being time locked is clearly not even a consideration. However, I would argue that this is a totally different situation. It is not another case of stragglers getting through, but hundreds of Time Lords that House should never have been able to access... Poggin 19:33, May 18, 2011 (UTC)

{C}Remember how during the classic series nobody ever mentioned the Time War, or how in The End of Time the Doctor and the Master discuseed their childhood from before the Time War. That is because, the Time War didn't happen until some point in between The TV Movie and Rose. The Corsair and the other Timelords ended up in the bubble universe sometime before the Time War began. If House hadn't killed them, they would have survived the Time War by being in another universe, just like the Master survived the war by using a chameleon arch, or the Dalek in Dalek survived by being stranded and seperated by the Dalek fleet. It has been established before that it is possible for Daleks and Timelords to be alive by surviving the Time War. The Cult of Skaro already proved that leaving the universe is a good way to survive the war. The Timelords still have existed, as has been established many times. Unfortuanetly, House killed all the Timelords in the bubble universe, so none of them survived. Even before the Doctor landed on House, he would not have been able to travel to a point in time from before house killed the Corsair, because that version of the Corsair would have been from a different point in Gallifreyan history then him. Its the same reason that the Doctor and the Master have always met in linear order. Even if that weren't the case, he became a part of events as soon as the TARDIS landed on House, and he wouldn't be able to go back in time to save the dead Timelords. The Doctor explained this in Parting of the Ways. Even if he did try to break the laws of time in a future episode, and go to an earlier {C}point in the bubble universe's history, before House killed the Corsair and the other Timelords, he can't. The TARDIS said that the bubble universe was going to be destroyed wihtin a few hours, so he can never go back there again.Icecreamdif 20:17, May 18, 2011 (UTC)

{C}Ok, fair enough, there is now way for the Doctor to go back to meet the Time Lord Victims in question (without breaking a few laws, which I believe no.11 is apt to do quite frequently...). However, the fundamental point is that the victim Time Lords were not time locked, otherwise House would have to have become time locked too by association. In which case we are both arguing for a view where Time-War non-combatants, even Time Lords, are not time locked. Which I suggest is a different standpoint to what the Doctor holds to be the case (he could *shock* be a bit wrong?). Which may possibly open some new possibilities... Poggin 21:02, May 18, 2011 (UTC)

{C}All timelords who were involved in any way in the Time War are time locked. However, all Time Lords in the universe were involved in the Time War, so they are all time locked. The Corsair, and the other Timelords that House killed, were not in the universe, so they were able to avoid the Time War.Icecreamdif 21:09, May 18, 2011 (UTC)

{C}Ok, to summarise...

1- Pre-Time War Time Lords are not time locked, so long as they have not had "contact" with the war.

2- Pre-Time War Time Lords can avoid the Time War and hence the lock in a manner as displayed in "The Doctor's Wife", ie leaving N-Space to a Bubble Universe.

3- There is no principle which excludes the existence of more such Time Lords, escaping via different sub-universes similar to the Bubble Universe, eg E-Space, where they might not be killed by an entity such as House.

4- Being not-killed, they may eventually travel to the Post-Time War main universe, avoiding the time lock.

5- However, this tells us only a possibility of the Doctor meeting more Time Lords, rather than predicting definitively there are more Time Lords out there for him to meet.

Poggin 21:24, May 18, 2011 (UTC)

{C}That's basically what the Doctor had assumed happenned at the beginning of The Doctor's Wife. If they ever do decide to bring back the Timelords, that would be as good a way to do it as any. Of course, non-renegade Timelords rarely left Gallifrey unless they had to, so it's unlikely that there is a large group of surviving Timelords outside of the universe, but it is theoretically possible.Icecreamdif 22:45, May 18, 2011 (UTC)

{C}Hmm, if (and it may be a big if) the past TV series only are held to be true, then Romana could well fulfil the criteria for Time War survival (and later accessibility from the main Universe). That is, assuming that she remained in E-Space... But with this sort of thing, the writers could go either way. She has not yet been explicitly mentioned in the new series, and hence her fate is not at all concrete. Poggin 14:45, May 20, 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, as Icecreamdif said, the Doctor must have been assuming pretty much what you summarized for the start of The Doctor's Wife to make any sense. And yes, if you ignore the spinoff media and RTD's off-camera interviews, Romana would qualify.

Except... wouldn't the Doctor have told them about Romana once he came home to join the War? And, if he'd done so, would they really have had a hard time getting her back?

Then again, that ties into a mystery we already had: The Time Lords already knew Susan was alive, and even had the ability to time scoop her, and a powerful psychic like her would have been a valuable war asset, and yet from everything the Doctor's said since, it sounds like she didn't fight (or at least he didn't know whether she did). And the same goes for Salyavin/Chronotis (if you accept Shada).

Maybe the Doctor had a plan B in case the Daleks won the war, a plan that involved Susan, Salyavin, Romana, and a handful of other renegades. (In fact, you can almost imagine what that plan would look like.) He didn't tell the Time Lords about the plan; instead, he told them, "OK, I'll lead the troops, if you keep my family out of the War," and then kept mum about Salyavin and Romana. In the end, he didn't need to use that plan B because he came up with another one (using the Moment). And that's why they're still a mystery.

If you accept the spinoff media, Romana's taken out of the equation, but more renegades are added in, including the Doctor's father Ulysses. But the same thing works. --99.35.132.17 20:44, May 20, 2011 (UTC)

If you ignore all the spin-off stuff, and assume that Romana is still in 0-space, that would be a good way to bring her back to the show. However, given that the Doctor knows that she was in 0-space, and given that he constantly talks about being the last of the Timelords, it is likely that Romana is dead. My guess would be that the Timelords managed to bring her back to N-space to fight in the Time War, as they would need every available Time Lord to fight.Icecreamdif 04:18, May 21, 2011 (UTC)

Also, think about it from the Moff's point of view. Nobody but the hardcore fans would care about Romana coming back. But all of the hardcore fans are sure that Romana already came back, and was even President during the War. Although it never made it on-screen, RTD has said multiple times that he intended all of that to be true when writing about the LGTW. It's also one of the few bits of history that's consistent across all of the spinoff media--and it's such an important plot point in all of them that ignoring it would amount to declaring that nothing but the TV shows ever happened. The hardcore fans would be angry, and everyone else wouldn't care in the slightest, so why bother? From a writer's perspective, it would make much more sense to bring back Susan that way, or Chronotis, or a non-TV character, or (simplest of all) another Time Lord we'd never heard of. --99.35.132.17 20:55, May 21, 2011 (UTC)

Different fans have different opinions of what is canon. There are plenty of hardcore fans who don't care about anything but the TV series, and they ignore stuff from the spin-off stuff all the time (like that nonsense about the Time Lords being "loomed"). We already know that Romana wasn't the president during the war, because we know that Lord President Rassilon was the president. Either way, since the Doctor has never gone back to 0-space to find her and always refers to himself as the last of the Timelords, we can assume that Romana died in the Time War, whether she was the president, or the Timelords brought her back to fight.Icecreamdif 02:21, May 22, 2011 (UTC)

Sure, I hate Lungbarrow too. (That's the one with the looms, etc.) And I have no problem with them throwing away parts of continuity (even TV continuity) when the story demands it. For example, I loved Human Nature, even if (to my mind, at least) it means the wonderful novel of the same name never happened. But throwing away continuity gratuitously is a different story--especially if they do it for the sole purpose of a continuity nod. What would be the point in that?

More importantly, even if you only care about the TV show, RTD said repeatedly, in articles and interviews, that Romana was the President that Rassilon replaced. True, he never got that on camera, but still, if the Moff threw that away, do you really think more fans would cheer him for it, or whine about him rewriting RTD's history?

Finally, the Doctor always refers to himself as Last of the Time Lords--but they keep showing us over and over (the Master, Jenny, the Time Lords that House killed) that he's wrong. When they do bring back another Time Lord (which they will do eventually), you can't complain that they've lied to us. --99.35.132.17 08:22, May 22, 2011 (UTC)

Are you really saying that Moffat would never rewrite RTD's Dr. Who history, after all that stuff about the cracks literally erasing RTD's Dr. Who history? Since it never made it to the screen, Romana's presidency is not actually part of RTD's Dr. Who. It is RTD's opinion that she was president, but that doesn't really matter since he is writing the show. I know that they will obviously bring back the Timelords eventually, even if they do just bring back the Master. My point was that the Doctor knows that Romana decided to stay in 0-space at the end of Warrior's Gate, so if Romana had avoided the Time War by staying in 0-space, the Doctor would know about it, and would not refer to himself as the last of the Time Lords. When the Time Lords do return, the Doctor can't know that there were surviving Timelords.Icecreamdif 15:04, May 22, 2011 (UTC)

Do you not know how to read simple English? Of course Moffat will change RTD's history, and novel history and classic-show history too, if he has a good reason. But a continuity nod is not a good reason to break continuity--the very people you're trying to please are the same ones who are going to get angry. I don't know how many more ways I can explain that. But I think everyone besides you understands (or just doesn't care anymore), so I won't try again. --99.35.132.17 02:43, May 23, 2011 (UTC)

How's this for a simple answer: Maybe the reason everyone knows the Time Lords are gone is that, for the past 8 years of his subjective time, the Doctor has been running around all of spacetime, from Event One to Utopia, loudly whining, and occasionally bragging, about being the Last of the Time Lords. Anyone who doesn't live under a rock (and some that do, like the Beast) must have heard by now. "Oh, look, it's that Doctor, you remember, our Susan ran into him in the market over by Betelgeuse and he told her he'd killed all the Time Lords, whatever they are?" --99.20.128.135 08:06, May 25, 2011 (UTC)

ok, going back to the original point of this article/thread thingie, how come the doctor doesn't encounter pre-war timelords? for example, if the pre-war master decides to invade 21st century earth at the same time post-war doctor is there, then it's not like that event would just dissapear because a post-war timelord was there. how come there are no interactions of this sort?121.216.229.210 10:35, July 20, 2011 (UTC)

First, please sign your posts. Now, to answer your question:

First, the RTD answer. Even if the War started in, say, 2005, it started with the Time Lords and Daleks removing themselves from history, it was fought between two time-traveling enemies, and it ended with the entire war being time-locked. To anyone who's not time sensitive, it never happened, because the Time Lords and Daleks never existed. To time-sensitive species, as the 10th Doctor explained somewhere or other, it's in the past of every timeline. There is no pre-War anything to meet anywhere or anywhen. The big problem with this answer is Time Crash—there obviously is a 5th Doctor out there somewhere and somewhen for the 10th Doctor to run into.

Next, the John Peel answer. In one of the early EDA novels, Legacy of the Daleks, we learn that there's a law against Time Lords meeting each other out of temporal sequence. It's not a physical law in the sense that it's impossible to do it; it's a law passed by the Time Lords to prevent something which is difficult and very dangerous. It's almost certain to create the kind of temporal paradoxes that could destroy the Web of Time. Fortunately, the 8th Doctor, as always, gets lucky, and ends up fulfilling the Master's destiny instead of derailing it. Probably nobody but the 8th Doctor could count on being that lucky, and nobody but the 7th Doctor could count on being able to plan something like that intentionally, so no other incarnation would dare to do it.

I suspect that Moffat subscribes to a sort of hybrid of these. The pre-War Time Lords really are removed from history, but that doesn't means it's not impossible for him to meet them, just very, very hard and very, very dangerous. In fact, it's as hard as Amy reuniting with Rory, her parents, or the Doctor after they'd been removed from history, and as dangerous as the Doctor finding out about his own death two centuries in advance. So, if the Moff wants Romana in the 50th anniversary special (and Lalla Ward is available), he'll come up with a good story to make it happen. --99.40.53.116 10:21, July 20, 2011 (UTC)

The Time War didn't remove the Timelords and Daleks from history. Otherwise, Sarah Jane wouldn't remember the Doctor or Davros or the Daleks, and UNIT wouldn't consider the Doctor to be a legend, if it even existed. Remember, in Death of the Doctor Jo assumed that the Timelords were still around because she remembered that they were around during the Third Doctor's time. If the Timelords had been removed from history, Jo would have assumed that the Doctor had always been the last of the Timelords. The events of the Time War are in a timelock, but all Time Lord and Dalek history from before and after the Time War remains unchanged. Since the Doctor has always met the Master in chronological order, and always returned to Gallifrey in chronological order, we can probably assume that for whatever reason, Timelords have to meet in the proper order. Of course, that still doesn't explain River Song, but she isn't entirely Timelord, is she?Icecreamdif 18:15, July 20, 2011 (UTC)

You forget: Sarah Jane was a time traveler, which means she remembers even when things are removed from history. So her memory means no more than that of the Doctor, and all of the "higher" time-sensitive species. If we'd met, say, a non-time-traveling human from the 22nd to 50th centuries in any of the new series episodes before the Daleks were re-revealed, that would have been interesting… but unfortunately, RTD never showed us that. Anyway, the Doctor specifically said "The Daleks removed themselves from history" on TV, so if you don't believe that means what it sounds like, you need some other good explanation.

Meanwhile, as for Time Lords having to meet in chronological order, the Doctor saying that it's one of the Laws of Time is enough to establish that—but there are nevertheless exceptions (especially if you consider that a Time Lord meeting his past/future self is a special case of the same thing). Sure, usually either there's a whole team of Time Lords working directly under the President to monitor the timelines or the meeting threatens to blow a hole in spacetime, but at least it can happen. So, there's a way out if the Moff wants to bring back a Time Lord or two, but not a gaping hole that leaves us wondering why they're not all showing up every week. --173.228.85.118 03:46, July 23, 2011 (UTC)

Parting of the Ways pretty much confirms that the Daleks didn't remove themselves from history. Rodrick said that the Daleks disappeared thousands of years ago. If they had removed themselves from history, he would have never even heard of the Daleks.Icecreamdif 04:24, July 23, 2011 (UTC)

You still have to explain what the Doctor meant when he said that the Daleks removed themselves from history, and what RTD meant when he said the same thing about both sides in the Annual. Maybe that was just a continuity error, but then maybe Rodrick was just a continuity error—and besides, that's always the most boring way out.

So, here are some theories:

1. Rodrick is from 195 millennia after humans discovered time travel. It's perfectly plausible that by that time, humans are one of those "higher species" that can remember things despite the Time War. That's why I specifically said "from the 22nd to 50th centuries".

2. When history changes or things are erased, it's never perfect; there are always echoes (as the Doctor explains in Flesh and Stone and Cold Blood). Maybe the farther away you are from the erasure, the less effective it is. In fact, it does seem like the farther into the future they go, the more everyone knows the Time Lords and Daleks are gone instead of everyone but a handful of "higher species" not even knowing they ever existed.

3. There are now two (or more?) contradictory histories that are equally real. A story that takes place in 2005 can only happen in one or the other, but in a story set in 200100, both of them could be in the past simultaneously. If Iris Wildthyme couldn't explain this idea to the Doctor, a mere human like me has no chance of explaining it to a fellow mere human, but maybe reading a bit of Lance Parkin, Larry Miles, Kate Orman, or Paul Cornell would help. That's how the Whoniverse worked during at least some of the NAs and EDAs, and as long as the stories just hint at the idea without making the plot rely on you fully comprehending it, it can actually work. I just don't see it working on TV.

Personally, I like the first one, but that's probably more because it's another small hint in the decades-long, never-to-be-fulfilled, all-media-spanning arc about the true future history of humanity than because it's simple and plausible (although it is). --173.228.85.118 05:13, July 23, 2011 (UTC)

In which episode did the Doctor say that the Daleks removed themselves from history?Icecreamdif 05:26, July 23, 2011 (UTC)

Well, I don't have the subtitles to grep through on this computer, but I do have some scripts… and I don't see that exact wording, but I do see "vanish from all of space and time" in Parting of the Ways, and I think that's the Doctor.

Meanwhile, searching PDFs, in addition to the Annual saying that they removed themselves from time and space, the Time Traveller's Almanac also says "the Daleks vanished from time and space" to start of the war.

Finally, going to Last Great Time War on this wiki, the section "The Conflict" says:

{C}Shortly after the Tenth Dalek Occupation, the Daleks vanished from time and space and wielding the full might of the Deathsmiths of Goth, launched a massive fleet into the Time Vortex, initiating the war.

So, it's not just some crazy interpretation I've dreamed up; this wiki says the same thing.

Meanwhile, while it sounds really cool to say "vanished from time", what does that actually mean? To a non-time-sensitive, it's nonsense; things can only vanish from the present. If something vanished from your past (or future) you'd have no way of knowing about it. But to a time-sensitive, it would have to mean that you remember them having existed across a stretch of time, and now you can tell that they no longer exist in any time. Unless you can think of another way to make sense of that sentence? --173.228.85.118 06:58, July 23, 2011 (UTC)

That phrase is open to interpretation. The main question would be does a non time sensitive species forget the Daleks ever existed, or do they simply percieve the Daleks as having vanished from the present. Rodricck's statements seem to suggest the latter. If he was time sensitive, and knew that the Daleks had vanished across all of space and time, then the phase "thousands of years ago" wouldn't make any sense.Icecreamdif 15:37, July 23, 2011 (UTC)

But it doesn't make sense in your interpretation either.

Imagine that, as you're reading this paragraph, Egypt vanishes from all of time. In my interpretation, that includes vanishing from all records, including memories (except those of time travelers), so it just never existed. In your interpretation, we still remember it, and to us, it's as if it just vanished a few seconds ago. And to Herodotus as he's writing his histories, it also just vanished. And so on up to the guy who wrote your high-school history book. If you went back and read that book, it would tell you that, despite classical and ancient historians claiming Egypt had vanished far earlier, everyone knows it actually vanished in 1973--even though _you_ knew it vanished in 2011. And if you hopped into the TARDIS for your first time travel voyage into the year 2015, you'd meet people who tell you you're crazy, it didn't vanish until 2015, and in fact they were there on holiday in 2013. The whole thing would be a massive naked paradox.

It would be the same with the Daleks. People in 2164 would see the Daleks vanish in the middle of the occupation, but people in 2174 would remember the entire war and see the Daleks vanish right before they were driven off, and people in the 27th century would see them vanish in the middle of the Second Dalek War, and so on.

Of course it's possible that the Daleks had already been destroyed by humanity in, say, 198000, so their vanishing from time to fight the LGTW just didn't affect Rodrick at all. But that still leaves human history a mass of contradiction from 2157 to 198000. (Of course the fact that the Doctor didn't talk to anyone from that span about Daleks in the episodes between the LGTW and the Cracks means that we can't know what those people would have remembered… but it seems distinctly unlikely that RTD intended anything like that.)

Meanwhile, if you want to interpret "vanished from time and space" as "went back in time from 198000 to the Rassilon Era to start the war, not changing their past history at all", then at any time up to 198000, the universe is still swarming with Daleks. (If the Time Lords managed to wipe them out throughout those times, then we're back to the same problem.) So, the plots of most of the other Dalek episodes make no sense. For example, in Dalek, the fact that the Daleks will vanish in 196 centuries is just irrelevant far future history to the lone Dalek; there are millions of Daleks flying around in 2012 to give him orders.

In fact, the more I think about it, the more I think this must be a continuity error. RTD came up with the "vanished from time" thing because it sounded cool and appropriate, and also came up with the "thousands of years ago" thing because it worked in that episode's plot, and didn't realize there was no way to reconcile the two until later. But that doesn't relieve us of the responsibility for fanwanking some continuity (or explicit discontinuity) out of things—as RTD himself would have done back when he was a fan—which takes me back to my three ideas above. --173.228.85.118 00:06, July 24, 2011 (UTC)

There isn't really any way to remove the Daleks fom history without causing maajor paradoxes. It is possible that vanish from time and space doesn't mean that they wee removed from history. It could just mean that whatever Daleks were left after the Hand of Omega in Rememberance of the Daleks left the greater space time continuum to fight in the time-locked war. They still used to exist but disappeared at a specific point in history. The last appearance of the Daleks would then have been thousands of years before 200,100.Icecreamdif 02:21, July 24, 2011 (UTC)

Removing them completely from history, including records, including memory, doesn't cause any major paradoxes. The exception for time travelers makes things a bit more complicated, but not much. There are no paradoxes visible to anyone who never interacts with a time traveler; there can be paradoxes to anyone who does interact with a time traveler, but that was already true before.

Anyway, if there was no timey-wimey going on, and it's just that the Daleks at a certain period of time all left, what happened to all the Daleks in the future of that time? For example, if they left after Remembrance, as you suggest, how did they invade Earth two centuries later? (Actually, it couldn't be Remembrance, because they had later appearances—in the TV movie, even if you want to ignore the novels—but that doesn't solve the problem, it just changes the date.)

Come to think of it, that's a problem for my first two theories just as much as for yours. There's no paradox if Dalek Invasion of Earth just didn't happen (except in time travelers' memories and records), but that does change the future, and it changes what certainly sounds like a "fixed point in time", given that RTD has talked about how pivotal that was in our future development: no Invasion, no Earth Empire, etc. So, that only leaves theory #3, or at best a less-Iris-y version of it where there are two parallel timelines that run through at least the next few millennia until they merge in the future. --173.228.85.118 02:57, July 24, 2011 (UTC)

Dalek Invasion of Earth is what I was thinking of when I said that removing the Daleks from history would cause paradoxes. With ememberance of the Daleks, I wasn't talking about 1963, but about whatever distant year in the future they travelled to 1963 from. since Davros is in every classic Dalek episode from Genesis onwards, we can assume that the Doctor met the Daleks in a linear order from Genesis on. This woulld mean that Rememberance was the latest episode, from the Daleks point of view, in the classic series. I wasn't really counting their appearance in the TV movie, since that was just a cameo, where you don't even see the Daleks, and just hear an awful impression of their voices, but yes, they would have left space and time after the TV Movie(though that still doesn't explain how Skaro got undestroyed in the movie). Presumably, after Rememberance, the surviving Daleks went back to the future, started offeing Timelords trials for some reason, and eventually left space and time to fight in the Time War, all thousands of years before 200,100.Icecreamdif 03:19, July 24, 2011 (UTC)

As a quick aside: Even without the TV movie, you have to explain how Skaro got undestroyed, because it was also destroyed in the Last Great Time War. And then it was there again in City of the Daleks. (Unless you want to take the Dalek Prime's story in War of the Daleks at face value, that is.)

Anyway, even if the Doctor met the Daleks in linear order from Genesis on, he certainly didn't before that, and you still have to explain how the Daleks were there in all of those episodes—not to mention the appearances in novels, audios, etc. that were after Remembrance in the Daleks' timeline, the Doctor's timeline, and local time.

Also, all indications are that the far future the Daleks came back from was early in the 5th millennium; for someone 200100 to call that "thousands of years ago" would be like saying that the Neanderthals died out "centuries ago": a vast, and silly, understatement. --173.228.85.118 03:51, July 24, 2011 (UTC)

Well, someone who deoesn't know anything about Neanderthals, and in't that smart, might be able to make that mistake, though I suppose Rodrick would havee to be smart to win Weakest Link. Where are you getting the 5th century from, anyway? Is that from an episode, or is it fom a novel or something. Either way, just because the Daleks have to have left space and time after Rememberance, that doesn't mean that it had to be right after Rememberance. Really, all that has to happen is the Daleks have to have left time and space sometime after their latest chronological appearance, but a few thousand years beore Parting of the Ways.Icecreamdif 04:40, July 24, 2011 (UTC)

Before answering, let me mention something you just reminded me of: In the 10th Doctor New Series novel Prisoner of the Daleks, the Doctor accidentally "jumped a time track" and ended up meeting pre-LGTW Daleks in the middle of the Second Dalek-Human War. That means he could obviously meet pre-LGTW Time Lords the same way. But, as this novel and the classic TV story The Space Museum both imply (and a couple of BFAs make explicit), that's probably not something he can do intentionally, and definitely not safe. Which makes it perfect for a one-shot reunion (e.g., for the 50th anniversary special) without actually bringing Gallifrey back.

Anyway, 5th millennium, not 5th century. Besides the fact that every dated Dalek story or even mention of the Daleks before the new series takes place in or before the 5th century, here's what we know: The Dalek Civil War takes place while the Daleks are fighting humans. There are three Dalek-Human Wars, the second one was somewhere in the 3rd millennium (established off-TV to be around the 26th century). Master Plan takes place in 4000, in the runup to one of the wars, so that has to be the Third one. Meanwhile, from the new series, the Second Great and Bountiful Human Empire controlled the entire galaxy and two others by the 42nd century (and Prisoner establishes that it existed even pre-LGTW), which means the Daleks were no longer a force by then.

I'm completely ignoring the NA and EDA novels, because the only relevant source I can remember there is War of the Daleks, which (if you take everything the Dalek Prime and the Doctor say seriously) not only retcons every Dalek story, it also puts the 26th century after the year 4000 and shows that even the fake Skaro that Davros and the 7th Doctor were tricked into destroying wasn't actually destroyed, and it's just all far too silly.

However, the Big Finish audios and stories fit in with the 5th millennium timeline.

Of course it's always possible that there was another post-LGTW Dalek Empire we never saw that was only a few millennia before 200100. It's also possible that the Dalek Empire was destroyed in the 42nd century, but scattered remnants survived and built a new Empire after the fall of the Second (or Third) Great and Bountiful Human Empire, and it was those Daleks who left to fight the LGTW. But either way, it's a huge stretch just to accomodate that one line. --173.228.85.118 05:46, July 24, 2011 (UTC)

Any theory that accomadates every line regarding the Time War is a huge stretch.Icecreamdif 20:55, July 24, 2011 (UTC)

Well, yes, but a theory that basically copies what was in the novels is a stretch that's already been taken… Anyway, ultimately I think the answer is that RTD didn't think everything through, and then he didn't go back and fix things later. And that's perfectly reasonable. The only way to really fix things later is to have stories like Unnatural History and The Gallifrey Chronicles that are explicitly about sorting out continuity, which works great in a novel (well, it can; War of the Daleks shows how miserably it can fail…), but would be deadly dull on TV, and completely meaningless to the casual fans. The best they can do is try to avoid creating new major contradictions or highlighting the ones that already exist, and get on with the job of writing great stories within the 90% of continuity that works just fine. --173.228.85.118 23:12, July 24, 2011 (UTC)

If you think about it, it boils down to "What did Jack Harkness see/hear about during the UNIT years. He's a time traveller and has only interacted with post-TimeWar Doctors. He lived through the period where The Third Doctor would have been exiled. He was working for Torchwood, so he'd have access to information. Did he hear about (or even participate in some fashion) in the events of "The Three Doctors" and "Day of the Daleks"?

Also, someone mentioned Sarah Jane retaining her memories because she'd travelled throug time. Is that all it takes to become "time sensitive"? Does one trip in the TARDIS make you immune to any changes in the timeline? Where would that leave Liz Shaw, who never travelled in the TARDIS on-screen? What about the hundreds of people who participated in The Doctor's adventures, but never travelled with him? Is the portion of the universe destroyed by the Master (including Trakken) back? Is Tremas alive and well sitting in The Keeper's chair since the Master would never have posed as the Melkur? More importantly, what would have happened to Nyssa's history? She never would have left Trakken if the Master hadn't taken over her father's body and might have returned if it hadn't been destroyed. Since she'd qualify as a "time sensitive" according to the Sarah Jane rule, but her personal history rewritted so she never had a reason to leave home, where is she? On Trakken? On Terminus? I'm invoking the MST3K motto. 69.74.43.35 13:17, July 27, 2011 (UTC)cdr69.74.43.35 13:17, July 27, 2011 (UTC) 09:17, July 27, 2011 (EDT)

I think people are saying that Sarah Jane would have remembered any changes to the timeline, because in Time of Angels, the Doctor explained to Amy that she could remember the clerics who were erased from time because she was a time traveller and saw the universe in a different way now. Of course, Sarah's travels with the Doctor would probably be forgotten if they were actually erased, similar to how Amy forgot about Rory. It is much simpler to assume that the Timelords and Daleks weren't erased from history, and everything that they did before the Timelord still effected the universe, so the Master still destroyed a big chink of the universe, and Nyssa is still on Terminus. Jack probably never knew the Doctor was working for UNIT anyway. According to UNIT, there scientific advisor was named John Smith, and if Torchwood 1 knew that the Doctor was there they would probaably have arested him at the first available opportunity.Icecreamdif 16:09, July 27, 2011 (UTC)

A priori it may seem unlikely that "that's all it takes", but the Doctor pretty much explicitly said it's true, and we saw it work, so yeah, that's how the Whoniverse works. Of course there's more to it than that—a one-time companion doesn't have the Doctor's sixth sense for history, his intelligence, his vast knowledge of history, his experience and training at dealing with time travel and paradoxes, or his mental discipline at remembering the impossible, so they don't automatically see history the same way he does. But they do automatically see history differently from normal people.

As for what happens if Gallifrey were removed from history, of course that causes paradoxes, but so does any changing of history through time travel. So, if your argument is, "It couldn't have happened, because that would be a paradox," you're standing on thin air. If you're just asking what this particular chunk of spacetime would look like from outside, well, the show has never been consistent about what happens with all these paradoxes. Sometimes history stitches itself together to make events rational, sometimes the paradoxical events vanish from history, sometimes time just finds ways to hide the paradoxes from plain sight, sometimes they're naked and visible, etc. Again, the EDAs gave us some clues as to what happened the first time Gallifrey was wiped out, but that's no guarantee it worked the same way the second time—and, even if it did, what it tells us is: expect to be confused.

Personally, I think the most likely story for Nyssa is this: On her timeline, all those things happened (she's a time traveler). On the timeline of the people she's with now, maybe something very different happened—but it doesn't really matter, because they have no way of finding out. They'd never seen Traken or Logopolis or 20th century Earth or Tremas or the Master. Nyssa is there, she has her story for how she got there, the parts of the story they did experience (the end) match their own memory, and that's all that matters.

As for Jack and UNIT: You could just as easily ask why we never saw Torchwood in any of the UNIT stories. It might just be coincidence. Or it might be explained by meta-time: the UNIT era is chronologically after the creation of Torchwood, but the first time through for the Doctor was meta-chronologically before Torchwood existed, so he couldn't have met them (unless Jack "jumped a time track"). Even without Torchwood, past and future Doctors were running around a dozen different places (most of them in the London area) during any given month of the UNIT era. How did both Jack and the 3rd Doctor fail to recognize that the 8th Doctor from Father Time, for example, was the Doctor? (That's assuming UNIT took place in the 80s; if it was the 70s, pick another story.)

As for the MST3K motto, if you haven't read Paul Cornell's blog post at http://www.paulcornell.com/2007/02/canonicity-in-doctor-who.html (which Steven Moffat has referenced, although of course he hasn't explicitly endorsed it as The Truth), go read it. --173.228.85.118 22:34, July 27, 2011 (UTC)

We don't know that being a time traveller allows you to see shenever something is wrong with history. We only know that that works when ssomething has been erased by the cracks, and even that doesn't work in all circumstances. Also, we know that it is possible for the Doctor to encounter Torchwood before he meets Queen Victoria and the Werewolf, because Torchwood already existed by The Christmas Invasion. We can therefore assume that it would have been possible for the Third Doctor to have met Torchwood during the UNIT era, except, obviously, the writers hadn't come up with the concept yet. Torchwood presumably didn't know twhat the different incarnations of the Doctor looked like, and the TARDIS was generally sitting safely in his lab at UNIT HQ during that time, so Torchwood would have no way of knowing that the Doctor was exiled on Earth. I think the most likely story for Nyssa is that everything happenned as we saw it, because that was all before the Time War happenned. The Time Lords have always been depicted as such an influential species in the universe, that the results of their being totally erased from time would be at least as catastrophic as Turn Left. The destruction of the Time Lords has always been described as "burning" so we should accept that statement at face value. Icecreamdif 04:49, July 28, 2011 (UTC)

Actually, we can date Torchwood all the way back to "Aliens of London", since its been confirmed that Tosh was posing as the medical examiner. It was also the answer to a "Weakest Link" question in "Bad Wolf". Therefore, it was already part of history before The Doctor travelled back to provide the impetus for its creation.69.74.43.35 17:14, July 28, 2011 (UTC)

Being a time traveler _doesn't_ allow you to see when something is wrong with history; that's a special talent of either Time Lords or the Doctor in particular. All it does is let you remember the old history (if you already knew it), which is not nearly as useful.

As for not knowing about other incarnations: Besides the fact that the 8th Doctor was actually a public figure in the 1980s, we know that UNIT's file on him in the late 20th century included at least 7 incarnations (implied to be 6 of the first 8 plus one later one), so why wouldn't Torchwood know at least the basics?

As for Gallifrey: The Moment was a super de-mat gun. Go watch The Invasion of Time again to see what a de-mat gun does: it removes the target from history. As for their removal being catastrophic—well, the universe was almost destroyed once in 26 years with the Time Lords around, and then 3 times in 5 years since they're gone. Meanwhile, most of the major powers have been destroyed by the War, and the Gelth, Nestene, etc. have been reduced to survival mode; if that hadn't happened, who knows how much more dangerous things would be? Also, history appears to change much more readily, the Reapers are said to be far more prevalent, etc. Sounds pretty catastrophic to me.

We know, from the Doctor's own testimony, that history can change. We know that the Last Great Time War was a time war. The Doctor has said repeatedly that time isn't linear, and only appears to be so under special circumstances or from a "provincial viewpoint". Why do you insist on believing otherwise? --173.228.85.118 03:30, July 30, 2011 (UTC)

"The Moment was a super de-mat gun." We don't in fact know what the Moment was. We don't even really know that what the Doctor used was the Moment, rather than something else, although it's extremely likely, given what was revealed in The End of Time. All we know is that the Daleks and Time Lords "burned" (Dalek). --89.241.64.70 03:55, July 30, 2011 (UTC)

I know what a de-mat gun is, and the Moment is clearly not that. For one thing,you need the Key of Rassilon to make one, and I doubt the Doctor would have had access to that anymore. For another thing, the de-mat gu was basically a handheld weapon that could destroy one person at a time, not a planet destroying doomsday machine. And, most importanltly of all, the de-mat gun dematerializes people. The Doctor had consistently described Gallifrey as having been burned, and the effefct of the de-mat gun doesn't even come close to that.Icecreamdif 05:03, July 30, 2011 (UTC)

Agreed. The "de-mat gun" idea apparently comes from comics, not the show, and its effects simply don't fit what the Doctor and others have said in the show. Also, it's clear from The End of Time (Part 2) that Rassilon and company know what the Moment is and what it could do, which doesn't suggest something the Doctor had improvised on his own. It much more suggests a known and very powerful Time Lord device, not necessarily originally intended as a weapon but capable of being used as one. Since it's one of those things that has greater dramatic impact being left mysterious, we're not at all likely to learn much more about it. --89.242.72.115 21:24, July 30, 2011 (UTC)

{C}For the de-mat gun dematerializing people instead of removing them from history: We've been told on TV (in its first-ever mention), and in the novels and comics, that it removes targets from history, but if you want to ignore that and just guess based on the name, go ahead. For the Key of Rassilon: the IDW comic The Forgotten explains his plan to get the Key of Rassilon, and why he needs it (and the EDAs tell us that it had been lost in the previous time war, which explains why he needed to leave Gallifrey to get it).

But let's ignore all of the details. The Last Great Time War was a time war. Sending the Doctor into the past to stop the Daleks from being created was the first strike in the war, so clearly there was at least some messing with history; the name isn't just an attempt to sound cool. Most importantly, the Doctor—who presumably understands the time war better than anyone else in the universe—clearly firmly believed that after the War, he would never again encounter another Time Lord or a Dalek no matter where and when he traveled in history; anywhere they might be found is either gone, or on the other side of an impenetrable time lock. Of course there were a handful of unexpected very special exceptions—the Master, the lone Dalek, etc.— and there could still be others. But as a general rule, the Time Lords and the Daleks are gone from all of history, not just from some certain date on.

If you want to believe that they only vanished at some date shortly before 200000 AD, or shortly after the last future Dalek story we saw on TV, or from the near future, or whatever, then everyone who was involved in the war just didn't understand it. The Doctor is wrong. The lone Dalek in 2012 had no reason to kill himself. Davros could have just found the Daleks that existed in 2009 instead of having to create new ones. And so on.

Those are the facts, as we know them from TV. It's true that, if you ignore everything in the novels, comics, and Annuals, we don't know why the Time Lords and Daleks are gone from all of history, but we still know that they are. --173.228.85.118 04:21, July 31, 2011 (UTC)

I never said that the de-mat gun didn't remove people from history, I just said that it dematerializes people, it doesn't burn them. This clearly goes against every description of the destruction of Gallifrey in the new series. Also, in Invasion of Time, the Timelods seemed perfectly happy to call the de-mat gun the de-mat gun. There is no good reason why they would suddenly start calling it the moment during the Time War, and if you think about what "The Moment" actually means, it sounds nothing like a de-mat gun. It sounds more like he omehow posessed a certain moment in history, that he could use to destroy the Time Lords and the Daleks. In Father's Day the Doctor implied that it would be possible for him to go back in time to save the Time Lords if he wanted to. The Trees in The End of the World also didn't really seem like a time travelling species, but they knew that there used to be Time Lords.. This suggests, that the Timelords and the Daleks still used to exist, but the laws of time prevent the Doctor fomm travelling back to meet any of athem fom before the Time War.Icecreamdif 04:43, July 31, 2011 (UTC)

Neither the Time Lords nor the Daleks seem to have been removed from history in the sense of being removed from collective memory/records. People still know they once existed. Some of the confusion evidenced above may be the result of assuming the effects of the Moment include the effects of the Time Lock. Nothing so far said in the TV series indicates that the Time Lock was a result of the use of the Moment. It might have been or it might not, for all we know. It may be that the effects revealed in the TV series are not just the effects of the Moment but are the result of using the Moment within the Time Lock. Likewise, the permanent disappearance of the Time Lords may not be because of the Time Lock itself but because they were destroyed while within it. Had they survived, they might have reappeared. The post-Time-War Time Lords would (presumably) still have been kept mostly out of contact with pre-Time-War Time Lords -- but only mostly. Accidents could still happen (Time Crash, for example). Basically, we don't really have enough information yet, and may never get enough. --78.146.188.231 17:15, July 31, 2011 (UTC)

Since you've ignored my main point and instead answered a bunch of minor points, I'll try to go through them one by one.

The Moment isn't just the de-mat gun; it's something new that the Doctor developed out of the de-mat gun, billions of times more powerful. If someone used the principles of a pistol to develop a super-gun that could fire shells at neighboring countries, would you call it a pistol?

The Doctor has said contradictory things about whether he could bring the Time Lords. But in Father's Day, he's explicitly telling Rose that it would be disastrous for him to even try it.

The Trees are from billions of years in the future, when the descendants of humanity seem to be dominant or at least very important in the universe. Humanity discovered time travel in the 51st century. It seems plausible that (post-)human history books from far enough in the future would know about Time Lords and Daleks.

Meanwhile, that's the first alien species they met, at a point where RTD had barely thought through what the Time War meant. Everyone else who's known what a Time Lord was has also known that they all died in the Time War. And we know that only the "higher species" knew about the Time War.

If the Time War happened in 199000, or 2005, or whenever, and both Time Lords and Daleks are available around the universe on earlier dates, why did Rosanna Calvierri think the Time Lords were extinct in 1580, along with nearly every other alien the Doctor has met in the past?

What about the laws of time would prevent the Doctor from meeting the Daleks before the Time War? The law about meeting other Time Lords out of order is firmly established (although only in the novels, which you want to ignore), but there's no such law about Daleks, and in fact the Doctor definitely met them out of order many times in the past. Also, if there are still Time Lords running around before some date, but the Doctor just can't meet them, why hasn't he noticed any of their effects?

For the other poster, who still knows they existed? Have we seen any evidence of non-time-traveling humans from before 5000, or any other "lesser species", knowing about them? As I said above, everyone who knows about them is from a species that also knows about the Time War. As for using the Moment within the time lock, that's a possible interpretation (if you ignore RTD's statements, and everything else outside of TV), but that pretty much assumes what I originally suggested—that they were already removed from history before the Doctor ended the war, and all he did was prevent the winners from coming back. There's nothing contradictory or unreasonable about that, but it contradicts Icecreamdif's viewpoint as much as what I'm suggesting. --173.228.85.118 06:48, August 1, 2011 (UTC)

It could be that since they are the timelords anything that affects them affects the whole timeline so when they got killed in the timewar they got erased from time ... of course if you asked someone who works on the show they would probally say the cracks in time erased everything that happened to the timelords. Cory Jaynes 03:31, August 3, 2011 (UTC)

The first half of your theory is basically what happened the previous time the Doctor destroyed Gallifrey, in the EDAs. At least according to some of the authors. (Except that it happened gradually—Fitz's memories fading, the Doctor's recovered memories being more and more compatible with a universe without Time Lords, etc.) So, it's plausible that something like that would happen, even if there was nothing special about the way Gallifrey was destroyed. But that would still leave pre-War Daleks all over the place, and they don't seem to be there any more than the Time Lords.

::As for the cracks erasing the erasure of Gallifrey, I doubt it. Moffat made it pretty clear that all he wanted out of the cracks was to make Whoniverse Earth more like real-life Earth, so he could set stories in the modern day and not have everyone being blasé about aliens. Also, The Doctor's Wife happened after the cracks (and reboot), and it certainly seems to be set in a universe without Time Lords. (And remember, Gaiman had to rewrite it to move it from series 5 to 6, and that still didn't change.) --173.228.85.118 04:13, August 3, 2011 (UTC)

Do consider; House was outside the Universe. Does this mean the time fields didn't affect House?

Gallifrey102 22:12, August 4, 2011 (UTC)

That would depend on the forces and laws of natures involved. Run the figures through the equations. Boblipton 22:17, August 4, 2011 (UTC)

House being outside the universe could mean he wasn't affected by the cracks. It could also mean he wasn't affected by the LGTW in the first place, which is why he doesn't realize the Time Lords are gone. (And yes, that could be a clue for Omega if you really want to believe in the "Omega is the big bad" theory, although I sincerely doubt it is.) It's even possible that he's not actually "time-sensitive" at all; he just knows that every once in a while someone falls into his universe with some yummy artron energy and doesn't understand where they come from.

But regardless, it's pretty clear that the Doctor believes he can only enter our universe after _it_ has been affected by both the LGTW and the cracks, and that there will be no pre-War Time Lords around for him to find there, no matter where and when he happens to enter it. --173.228.85.118 09:29, August 7, 2011 (UTC)

I see it as hanging on two factors: If, like me, you believe that 'Big Bang 2' rebooted the universe in every meaning of the word and that nothing other the cast were carried over, for all we know, there could be Time Lords out there. But, if you think it just restored the universe and merely erased the effects of the Time Fields, then the Time Lords are staying dead. Personally, even though there's believable evidence toward either possibility, I think that it's a bit of grey area. Until Moffat actually makes a reference to it in an episode, I'm going to stay open to each possibility.

86.173.142.182 21:39, August 11, 2011 (UTC)

Your first possibility isn't entirely implausible, but your second one makes no sense. If that's what you're arguing against, it's a straw man. The reboot clearly did not erase the effects of the time fields. Off-camera, the whole point of the cracks changing history was that Moffat wanted a Whoniverse where people react to aliens like real-life people. If the Stolen Earth Daleks, etc., were un-erased, he doesn't get that. On-camera, the Doctor made a big deal out of the fact that Amy had to make a special effort to use her memory to un-erase her parents (and that she did the same for him); if the cracks had been undone, that would have been unnecessary. Things after The Big Bang are the same as they were at the end of The Lodger (with minor exceptions due to Amy's memory), except that there are no more cracks to erase more history. --173.228.85.118 04:11, August 12, 2011 (UTC)

Could the reason there don't seem to be any Daleks anywhere in the universe in the 21st century (as is implied in DALEK) be because the Time War involved the post-Remembrance Daleks going back in time and recruiting their distant ancestors on Skaro? But then, of course, changing their own past in such a way would undoubtedly prevent their "current" selves from existing, wouldn't it? 194.168.208.42 10:41, August 24, 2011 (UTC)

I think a big problem people are having here is that they are imagining time as having a single dimension when looking at Whoiverse time travel mechanics would suggest 2 or even 3 dimensions of time. The thing is that time travel in the show travels along a single one of the time dimensions (usually, with a couple of exceptions) while the Time War happened in the past of a different time dimension. Regardless of whether this is actually true in-universe it is probably the best way of describing it. The Light6 15:28, August 24, 2011 (UTC)

194: Yes, that's not impossible. But the effect is pretty much the same; as far as any observers (outside the War) are concerned, it changes history in exactly the same way as if they all "vanished from time and space". Yes, of course it also causes a grandfather paradox, but that paradox isn't actually visible from the outside, because the impossible Daleks have already vanished anyway.

Light6: I've argued before essentially the same thing. Adding a meta-time dimension is the easiest way to understand the Whoniverse, without giving up the tools (relativity, etc.) that we use to understand the universe in the first place. A static 3+2 meta-universe, when viewed by a person only aware of 3+1 dimensions who just hangs around on Earth, would look like a static 3+1 universe where the current history is the only one that ever existed. But if that same person starts traveling in time, the 3+1 slice of the universe they see is dynamic; they can see that history has changed. If the Time Lords understand and sense the 4th dimension directly, but have only the same sort of vague intuitions about the 5th dimension that we do about the 4th, a lot of what the Doctor says makes a lot of sense.

The one mystery that's left is why everyone has to be at the same point on the 5th dimension as each other. But of course they don't, it's just that the Doctor only meets people at the same 5-dimensional location as himself. People an hour ago are just as real as people right now, but you can't talk to them; in the same way, people an hour meta-ago (before the Doctor changed history) are just as real as people right meta-now, but the Doctor can't talk to them.

Plus, a few of the novels explicitly back up the idea of a second dimension of time. At one point, one of Craig Hinton's novels goes so far as to give the full topology of the Whoniverse: the product of a 4D deSitter space(-time), a 6D Calabi-Yau manifold, and an extra 1D timeline.

However, that being said, it is possible to make most of Doctor Who work without a 5th dimension (only if you ignore the novels, of course); if things are far enough off to the side, or closed off by curves in spacetime, it's indistinguishable from them being in the meta-past. (In the same way that you can't see people on Pluto right now any more than you can see people yesterday right now.) Only a few stories really don't work this way. It's just that many stories are more complicated and less interesting this way, so I prefer the 5D explanation. --173.228.85.35 06:48, August 25, 2011 (UTC)

The Sontarans AREN'T one of the Higher Races though. The Doctor's attitudes towards them in the classic series seem to suggest that they're very low down on the scale in terms of the Time Lords, and any time travel tech they have is extremely crude and unreliable. So this doesn't work as an explanation for how they knew about Gallifrey and the Time War in TSS/TPS (and incidentally, there's absolutely nothing in those episodes to even suggest that those Sontarans are time travellers). In fact, the more I look at it, the more it seems like the entire concept is a massive plot hole. If the Time Lords were removed from ALL points in time and space, that would've prevented the War from ever having occured, and species like the Racnoss and the Great Vampires would've devastated the entire universe eons ago. 82.2.136.93 18:37, August 25, 2011 (UTC)

The Sontarans are one of the races on the edge. They were sophisticated enough to figure out that the War was going on, but not enough to get involved. That's what they keep complaining about. And that fits in with the fact that they just barely have time travel (The Two Doctors, The Time Warrior, etc.). And in the classic series, the whole point of The Invasion of Time was to establish that the Sontarans were a credible threat to the Time Lords, even if not quite on their level.

If the Time Lords are removed from all of time and space, that doesn't stop the War from happening—because that's not where the War is. As The Light6 said, think of two dimensions of time. The entire War happened earlier along that second time dimension than the entire 4D universe of today (and than the 4D universe representing the Doctor's timeline, which is different from the timeline of 2011 Earth, and than any other 4D universe we've seen). That even explains what RTD meant when he said that the Time War is in the past from every moment in spacetime.

We already know that they fought the Great Vampires across time and space in an earlier Time War, so that's just even earlier along the second time dimension. Like 173 said, I think, you can change history, but you can't change meta-history. The Time War (all Time Wars) change history all over the place, but once they're over, they're part of that meta-history.

I don't think 173 is right that you can explain this all without another time dimension, but I don't care. He already admitted that it would be more complicated and less interesting, so I can live without hearing it. --12.249.226.210 00:31, August 26, 2011 (UTC)

Two dimensions of time: In An Unearthly Child (the first episode, 23rd November 1963), Susan has an argument with Ian Chesterton about how many co-ordinates are needed to specify a location in spacetime: Chesterton (the science teacher) says 4; Susan (the Doctor's granddaughter) says 5. In Battlefield (1989), when the Doctor and Ace are discussing the distress signal the TARDIS is receiving, the Doctor talks of going backwards and forwards and sideways in time, which would require a 2nd time dimension. 5-D spacetime has been in the Whoniverse all along. --89.240.254.17 01:34, August 26, 2011 (UTC)

Years ago on rec.arts.drwho, Craig Hinton, who'd researched all the scripts, captions, transcripts, and novelizations he could find, said there were a number of places that imply a second time dimension, but nobody had ever said so outright, so that's why he wanted to make it absolutely clear in the novels. From your quotes, it sounds like he as being way too careful. I mean, I can imagine that Susan was talking about another space dimension (especially since later episodes established that there were at least 10 dimensions), but what else could "sideways in time" mean?

And nobody seems to be interested in how to make things work without a second time dimension anyway, judging by the poster before you, so I'll retract that suggestion. A meta-time dimension is the answer, period. --173.228.85.35 02:50, August 26, 2011 (UTC)

I can't remember what Susan talked of as the 5th dimension. However, in Battlefield, when Ace queries "sideways in time", the Doctor responds, "Yes, sideways in time, across the boundaries that divide one universe from another." In the revived series, it's stated several times that travel between universes used to be relatively easy, while the Time Lords were around, but is now almost impossible. Putting the two things together, it seems that travel sideways in time is radically different from travel backwards and forwards in time and is something even the TARDIS can't normally do. Presumably, there was something on Gallifrey, maintained by the Time Lords, that allowed such travel. -- (I was 89.240.254.17 but my IP address may have changed) 2.96.24.110 18:46, August 26, 2011 (UTC)

Actually, I went and checked, and Susan said the 5th dimension is "space", which is just silly, so forget that one. But you're right about Battlefield, and various other sources (like Quantum Archangel, which I think is the novel where Craig Hinton established the dimensionality of the Whoniverse) make it even clearer.

And the 10th Doctor novel Prisoner of the Daleks backs up the rest of the theory. The TARDIS jumps a time track, and it ends up somewhere that should be impossible: in the middle of a war that should no longer be part of history, between Earth Command and a pre-LGTW Dalek Empire. Similarly, about half the times when the Doctor has traveled back along his own past (which is supposed to be impossible, but that never stops him…), he's jumped a time track. And the first time he jumped a time track (in The Space Museum), he ended up a short way into his own future, and on an alternate timeline to boot. So, the LGTW is in the meta-past, along the 5th dimension, and so are all of the Daleks and Time Lords (except for the exceptions), and that's why the Doctor can't meet them (except when he jumps a time track).

And if you think about the wording, the metaphor with a train is actually very good. (Probably not because Glyn Jones planned it all out brilliantly in 1965, so much as because later writers picked up on the metaphor and used it reasonably well over the years.) A train can move forward and backward freely, but is constrained left and right—unless it jumps the tracks, which is something nobody in his right mind would do intentionally except in an extreme emergency, and which would be pretty hard if you ever needed to, but it does sometimes happen, and the train does end up left or right of where it should have been. In the same way, a TARDIS can move in 4 dimensions freely, but is constrained meta-earlier and meta-later—unless it jumps the tracks, which etc. (Of course that doesn't mean the Doctor moves on a straight line through the 5th dimension; very few train lines are straight lines. So that gives a bunch of extra timey-wimey that he has to get across, on top of the moving around freely in the 4th dimension, which is why he rarely tries to explain the details to humans.)

The only question is what the Time Lords did to make it easier (and hopefully safer) in the pre-LGTW days. (It's probably stretching the metaphor a bit too far to say they maintained a system of switching junctions and yards between the tracks…) --173.228.85.35 02:24, August 27, 2011 (UTC)

We know some of the effects of what they did -- or, at least, some of the consequences of them no longer doing it. Post-LGTW, not only was it extremely difficult to cross from one universe to another but doing so nearly wrecked the TARDIS. Worse, the dimension jump technology developed by the "Pete's World" Torchwood was dumping huge amounts of energy (in the form of heat) into the "Pete's World" Earth and inter-universe travel ultimately threatened the existence of all universes, even apart from the Daleks' Reality Bomb. Whatever the Time Lords had been doing must have included some way of managing the energy involved. There are a few other clues, too. In Doomsday, the Doctor knew a Void ship when he encountered one; it wasn't a new idea to him. Indeed, he knew quite a lot about the Void between universes, even though it's not something we've seen him dealing with much. He seems to have understood about alternate universes fairly well, right from the start. That suggests he knew about these things because the Time Lords generally knew about them, rather than from his own personal experiences. --2.96.16.169 16:08, August 27, 2011 (UTC)

Actually, I suspect the Doctor did a lot more traveling between alternate universes than all the other Time Lords of his day combined, so that's a lot of practical experience to add to millennia of Time Lord theoretical research. Not to mention hanging out with Eternals and Guardians, who the rest of his people only know as unfathomable gods, spending time on Logopolis, holding the Key to Time in his hands, absorbing the Bad Wolf energy, etc., and that's even without getting into the novels), so yeah, I'd definitely buy that he understood how it all works better than anyone, well before Doomsday. Unfortunately, none of that helps _us_ understand it very much, except to guess that whatever they did is something he can't do alone. (Maybe because he doesn't have the Eye of Harmony on Gallifrey?) --173.228.85.35 01:25, August 28, 2011 (UTC)

He probably did end up having more practical experience of alternate universes than most Time Lords but he didn't start out that way. As I said, above, "He seems to have understood about alternate universes fairly well, right from the start." In some of the William Hartnell stories, he talks of alternate universes and makes it clear he's relying on theoretical knowledge, not personal experience. The Chase has an example of that: The Doctor thought the TARDIS might have gone to a realm of imagination, because (as far as he knew) that was theoretically possible, but the audience (not the characters) eventually found out it was actually a funfair or theme park staffed by robots built to imitate Dracula, Frankenstein's monster, etc. There, the Doctor was explicitly theorising and happened to be wrong. --2.96.17.180 19:30, August 28, 2011 (UTC)

Of course it turns out that it actually _was_ possible, as The Mind Robbers and a few other stories prove… But anyway, good point. I think it's well established that the Time Lords knew a lot about (different kinds of) alternate universes. But that still doesn't do much to answer the original question. Meanwhile, the fact that there are different kinds of alternate universes, and one or more of them have been referred to as 'sideways in time', actually weakens the 5D argument; it's not as clear-cut that it makes sense to say that the reason the Doctor can't find any pre-War Time Lords or Daleks, or even meet anyone but time-travelers who's ever met any of them, is that it happened earlier in the fifth dimension, if the fifth dimension might just be a way of talking about different quantum possible worlds, rather than something you can order in a timeline. I still think that's the idea RTD vaguely had in mind, and likewise Trevor Baxendale and Gary Russell in their novels, but we can't be absolutely certain. --173.228.85.35 22:09, August 28, 2011 (UTC)

Where does RTD say that the Time War is always in the past from the perspective of everyone? 82.2.136.93 20:27, August 29, 2011 (UTC)

And regarding the absense of any Daleks beyond Earth in the year 2012, this is a very long shot, but could it be because during the Time War, the "current" Daleks went back in time and conquered their past selves? How could they do this though, without ceasing to exist themselves? If the change their past, their present will change to match it. 82.2.136.93 20:40, August 29, 2011 (UTC)

It was an interview prior to the start of series 3, but I have no idea where to find a link. (Of course the larger point he was making was that the Doctor will never meet any other Time Lords, which was obviously a bit of misdirection…)

I think your theory works, but I don't really get the motivation for it. Here's why it works. First, the Daleks are time travelers, so even after they change history, they still presumably lived through and remember the original history, just like Amy or the Doctor. The only paradox would be to any non-time-travelers who saw the future Daleks existing even though their ancestors had all been wiped out. But they didn't just kill their ancestors and return to their own time; the killed their ancestors and went off to fight in the Time War, which at least ended up time locked and cut off from the rest of the universe, so nobody but time-travelers ever saw them again, so the paradox is completely invisible. It's really no different from the idea someone suggested earlier, that they went back through time and recruited their ancestors—except that they end up with a much smaller army this way. Which is why I don't see the point of it.

Meanwhile, I don't get why people feel the need to propose more complicated stories that really aren't visibly any different from the straightforward interpretation of "vanished from all of space and time". Sure, maybe they didn't vanish (meta-)simultaneously; maybe there was a long (in meta-time) campaign of recruitment, extermination, or other kinds of history-editing that appears to be instantaneous if you can't see in 5 dimensions but really isn't. But how does that make things simpler or more reasonable? --173.228.85.35 03:42, August 30, 2011 (UTC)

Without intending to insult anyone, I fear I am about to. There is a variety of fangeek who thinks that because he/she/it/xu doesn't understand something, it must be rubbish. Never mind that the Time Lords spent millions of years evolving to feel time travel and that the Doctor spent two hundred years in school -- mediocre student, but still. The fangeek believes that if he/she/it/xu does not understand it, it can't be right. Which is why we're sitting here, arguing this point instead of having sex.

The essence of tv sf writing is that the writer makes it up as he goes along and spouts a bunch of gobbledygook to explain it. It's not reasons, it's excuses. You can't hand in your homework because your dog ate it. The Timelords and Daleks are gone because the Doctor sealed them off in a timelock. If you're a fangeek, you can sit here and moan and try to understand the mechanism by which the Doctor accomplished this, or you can say "The management doesn't want to tell those stories. Power up the bafflegab generators until they heterodyne, Scotty, and dinna tell me the engines canna stand the strain." We can sit here and talk blithely about five dimensions and string theory's seventeen dimensions, until we are blue in the face. It really doesn't matter and I am more concerned by the fact that a lot of contributors here can think of no better way to indicate that event B takes place after event A than by writing "Event A happened. Then event B happened."

What happened to the Time Lords and the Daleks? The Doctor's dog ate them.Boblipton 04:00, August 30, 2011 (UTC)

Honestly, these discussions were a lot more fun on r.a.dw in the 90s. I could tell Gary Russell that his idea made no sense, and then he'd go and write a novel with it and now it was canon and I had to shut up. RTD ruined everything. Now we all have to watch the show instead of sitting around speculating about what might happen in the unlikely event that the show ever came back, and what's the fun in that? :P

More seriously, the people in charge of the new series _do_ want to tell those stories. Why do you think RTD wrote all those articles and stories in DWA explaining the minute details of the backstory of something he tossed into an episode? Because he was one of those fanwanking geeks 20 years ago, and still is. That's why he hired Gary Russell first as his continuity advisor, and then as his script editor. Pleasing the mainstream audience was always the top priority, but he couldn't resist throwing bones to the geeks, and neither can Moffat. Do you really think the shoes in The Rebel Flesh were for anyone else?

And now, an excerpt from a mid-90s r.a.dw conversation. John Peel: "Never underestimate the potential for a new producer to come along and completely screw up continuity." Gary Russell: "And never underestimate the potental for the fans to fix it up." --173.228.85.35 05:10, August 30, 2011 (UTC)

Could the Time War-era Daleks have used a paradox machine to recruit their ancestors into the War, similar to how the Master used one to allow the Toclafane to come back in time and massacre their ancestors without ceasing to exist themselves? The reactions of the Doctor and Jack in "Last of the Time Lords" do suggest the possibility that they've encountered paradox machines before. Wonder where they came from though? 82.2.136.93 13:37, August 31, 2011 (UTC)

Last of the Time Lords does indeed suggest very strongly that both the Doctor (Time Lord) and Jack (former Time Agent) had encountered paradox machines before. Both knew a lot about them and the Doctor took it for granted that Jack would know how to put the Master's paradox machine out of action. That implies practical, not just theoretical, knowledge. --2.96.28.149 16:27, August 31, 2011 (UTC)

82.2.136.93: 194.168.208.42 already suggested the exact same thing about the Daleks recruiting their ancestors. Everyone agreed that it was possible, and 173.228.85.35 went on to explain that there's no visible paradox for anyone to see. So, why repeat the exact same suggestion as if it was brand-new, and then throw in an unnecessary paradox machine? --12.249.226.210 02:34, September 1, 2011 (UTC)

because it wouldn't work without a paradox machine Imamadmad 07:14, September 1, 2011 (UTC)

Sure it would. Where's the paradox? If they've vanished from normal spacetime anyway to fight their War, why does it matter that their ancestors have also vanished? Nobody can see any uncaused Daleks except their enemies in the War, who can see across changes to history and therefore see their causes.

Besides which, we've seen many paradoxes (or attempted paradoxes) in the history of the show (and even more in the other media) that didn't require a paradox machine. Most recently, the names Melody Pond and River Song exist even though there's no cause for either one. (Nobody thought of the name "Melody"; Amy named her daughter after her friend, who was in fact her daughter, who had that name because Amy had named her after her friend, who…) Do you know what the rules are for when a paradox machine is necessary? --173.228.85.35 17:11, September 1, 2011 (UTC)

i think that small things like a name or even individuals like jenny can exist sans paradox machine because even if they technically had no cause, it doesn't remove their existance. for example, the tardis going to the time jenny was in and then arriving too early and therefore creating jenny is a paradox, but not on a scale that would need a paradox machine. however, if jenny killed the doctor's ancestors or even maybe the doctor himself before she was generated, that would probably need a paradox machine to hold. in the case of the daleks recruting their ansesstors, most of the daleks died in the war and the earlier ones would therefore not be arround to war with the timelords. let alone the fact that the daleks that recruited them wouldn't exist. this sort of change would require a paradox machine to hold as nomatter how one sees the situation, it is a (double) causeless event and therefore a ginorous paradox. Imamadmad 07:57, September 2, 2011 (UTC)

Or a better way to phrase it based on what we've seen in the show: Ontological paradoxes can easily exist but Grandfather paradoxes need a Paradox machine or side effects happen like the Reapers being summoned. --The Light6 08:40, September 5, 2011 (UTC)

Of relevance to the original topic: The information available to the crew of the Teselecta in Let's Kill Hitler included the following:

• Spacecraft: TARDIS (Time and Relative Dimension in Space) TT Type 40, Mark 3

• Planet of Origin: Gallifrey

• Pilot Species: Time Lord

• Additional information: Listed as stolen

That excludes any possibility that the existence of the Time Lords has been somehow removed from history or even from memory. Not only do these people know the exact type and mark of the TARDIS, they also know she was stolen -- information that can only have come from the Time Lords themselves. --89.241.66.115 17:59, September 2, 2011 (UTC)

Except that these people are time travelers. As the Doctor has explained, time travelers can still remember the original history after it's been changed. (Putting it in 5-dimensional terms, the Time Lords don't exist anywhere in the 4-dimensional slice of the universe that 2011 Earth sits in, but they do still exist in the larger 5-dimensional universe. In other words, they're in the meta-past, along the 5th dimension. But that's just for people who want to think in terms of an extra time dimension; no matter _how_ you explain the "time travelers remember" bit, it still explains the Teselecta records.) --173.228.85.35 18:29, September 2, 2011 (UTC)

There's point missing going on here. Various contributors above have picked up the idea (which I think comes from a comic book) that the Moment was some variety of DeMat gun that wipes things out of history. The topic is "How does everyone know the Time Lords are gone?" and that's only a problem if they were wiped out of history. Clearly, they were not. Those (time travellers or not) who were aware of the Time Lords before they were destroyed are aware they've gone. The Trees of the Forest of Cheem (The End of the World) don't seem to have been time travellers but knew the Time Lords were gone -- Jabe comiserated with the Doctor about it. The answer to the question in the topic seems to be: Everyone knows the Time Lords are gone because there's no reason for them not to know. --2.96.23.243 20:40, September 2, 2011 (UTC)

First, the Moment isn't the only reason to believe the Time Lords are erased from all of time and space. If they were still available in the past, all of the time-traveling races we've met would be able to meet them, and yet, they're all surprised that even one (the Doctor) still exists to be met. The Doctor seems pretty sure that House won't be able to find more TARDISes to eat by entering the real universe in command of a TARDIS, so he doesn't believe there are any Time Lords in the past either. Finally, even if the Law of Time that prevents Time Lords from meeting out of order were an immutable, unbreakable Law (which it probably isn't), there are thousands, maybe even billions, of Time Lords that the Doctor has never met, and there'd be nothing to stop him from going back in time to hang out with them. (More simply, when he says that there are no Time Lords left anywhere, that _has_ to include anywhen, because he has a time machine.) So, it's pretty clear that the Time Lords don't exist even in the past.

Second, you're still trying to think of history as a linear thing. The Time Lords clearly used to exist, and now don't. That "used to" can't just mean "before 2005" (or any other date you pick), because the Time Lords aren't there before 2005 either. You can think of it as another dimension in time, or you can think of a single dimension of time that's a big winding spirally mess and part of it has become detached from the rest and is no longer accessible, or whatever you want, but however you interpret it, history has been changed. And that gives a ready-made answer for why all of the "higher races" still know about the Time Lords: time travelers can remember history after it's changed.

The only problem with any of this is the Trees. Everyone else we've seen who knows about the Time Lords has been from a "time-sensitive" species, or a "higher race", or has access to time travel. Everyone else (including pre-49th-century humans), hasn't known what a Time Lord is. The Trees are a problem because we don't see any evidence that they have time travel or time sensitivity or whatever, and yet they know about the Time Lords. The simplest solution to that problem is that, just because we didn't see it, doesn't mean it's not true. Especially since they're descended from the trees of Earth billions of years after humans discovered time travel. Sure, if you want to, you can come up with explanations for why humanity might have lost time travel in those 5 billion years, or why the trees might never have gotten it from the humans, but why? All the explanation is doing is creating a continuity problem out of thin air. --173.228.85.35 03:16, September 4, 2011 (UTC)

I always viewed The Moment as a very "simple" thing. During TLGTW ALL of the Daleks within the Universe rose up, summoned ALL their super weapons and launched what amounted to a final assault on Gallifrey. During this giant assault, or in preparation for it, ALL the Time Lords then within the Universe including both of the greatest renegades, The Doctor and The Master, returned to Gallifrey for what would be the final campaign/final battle of the War. During this final series of battles, as the Daleks unleashed weapons that annihilated entire worlds, and systems, and perhaps even bits of time itself, Rassilon came to teh conclusion that the Time Lords simply could not win this battle outright. So he decided to cheat, he would forcibly ascend every TL to the "next step in evolution", an act that would kill every life throughout all the Universe. This would have two effects: 1. The TL's would effectively win the war, having killed every Dalek and 2. They would become immortal energy at the cost of everyone else. When The Doctor found out he knew he couldn't let this happen, so he came up with a way to stop it. As the entire Dalek Fleet descended on Gallifrey and Rassilon prepared to use the Final Sanction, the Doctor used TL tech to literally take the exact moment all this was happening and locked it away from everything. Visually I think of this as if he took a sphere and locked everything around Gallifrey into it trapping everything within it, forever. This cut off everything within the sphere or bubble from the rest of the univerese, trapping them in an eternal now of warfare and death (to me this is what the Doctor means when he says he burned Gallifrey, he literally trapped them in the most horrible war ever concieved for what is functionally forver) This doesn't prevent any other TL's adventures as has been presented before, TLGTW is simply the future moment all of them were/are heading towards. The reason we don't see any crusing around anywhere else is because we see everything from the Doctor's personal timeline, a timeline in which that final Moment has already happened. Because time isn't linear the personal timeline maybe the only one that matters and because of that we get what he gets, a Universe where the TL's and Daleks are locked away forever, and where The Doctor is the last of them all. Because his timeline is past all those past adventures that took place in the future they functionally happen as they did but happen in a time before The Moment in his timeline, and therefore in the past and subject to the timelock even if they happen "after" what we are currently seeing in the future. Man I hope that made sense.

Also, what about The Master? Now he is in teh Moment, locked away in a time before he caused all teh trouble he did. Yet it still hapens, even though he travels to a point befor eit all happens and traps himself there. It seems that the only timeline that matters the is The Master's own, that way everything he did still happened even though he has now changed it so that he never could have done any of those things.-PierzStyx

It makes sense, but it's not really any different than saying they no longer exist in history.

Well, I guess that depends on how you interpret it. If you mean all Daleks and Time Lords (bar for the well-known exceptions) from all over time are locked in that bubble, then they're not in the outside universe, at any point in history, so that's the same as saying they vanished from history. They're not there in 2170 or 4000 or anywhere else in time. Putting that bubble in the future instead of the meta-past or sideways in time doesn't make a difference; it's still not in the past. More importantly, it has no bearing on whether it's not in the personal causal past of anyone we've seen (except the Doctor, the Master, and Davros). So, you still need to explain why all the other "higher species" remember things that aren't in their personal timelines. The "time travelers remember history after it changed" explanation works exactly as well here as it does the other way, and I suspect any explanation that works for one will work for the other. (For example, consider "they can sense or otherwise detect the War locked in the future/meta-past, but can't travel there".) And finally, no matter how you interpret it, the fact that it still happened on the Doctor's timeline doesn't mean it still happened on the timeline of, for example, the people living on 2011 Earth. For those people, the Daleks and Time Lords don't exist in history. (The 5-dimensional explanation lets us say that this is only because history is larger than they can detect, but that's not really important.)

On the other hand, if you mean only the Daleks and Time Lords at some particular date are trapped, then I don't think it makes sense. Remember, it's not just the Doctor who never sees Daleks or Time Lords cruising around time and space; every time traveler her meets is surprised to meet a combatant from that war, meaning that they don't see Daleks or Time Lords cruising around either. Even people he meets in the 16th century, which has to be long before the War, don't expect to see Time Lords. Significantly, the only exception to that is House, and the Doctor made a big deal out of the fact that he's outside the universe, and that's the only reason he was able to meet Time Lords.

Finally, I think you already explained the Master pretty well in the first paragraph. His timeline loops out of the bubble and then back into it, and the events of LotTL are on that loopy timeline, so if "the personal timeline is all that matters" as you said above, then he remembers it. --173.228.85.35 07:37, September 4, 2011 (UTC)

When the Doctor talks of the time lock, there are 2 consistent features: 1. He says "the entire war" is time locked, not just its ending, and 2. he never talks of it as something he did.

He talks of the destruction of the Time Lords and the Daleks as something he did: "I saw it happen! I made it happen!" (Dalek), "I had to stop them!" (The End of Time) and, replying to the boast by House "I've killed hundreds of Time Lords," he said, "I killed them all!" (The Doctor's Wife). He's consistent in his statements, accepting responsibility for the destruction but never claiming responsibility for the time lock. That quite strongly implies that the two things (destruction and time lock) have separate causes.

The Doctor is similarly consistent in saying the time lock encloses the entire war but he's never said anything about it enclosing Gallifrey or the Time Lords before the war. Of course, the Time Lords had already taken precautions against anyone messing things up for them by travelling into their past. The exact nature of those precautions has never been specified but their existence was already established in the pre-1989 run of the show -- time travel into Gallifrey's past was (somehow) prevented.

Surviving awareness of the Time Lords varies. To the Shadow Architect in The Stolen Earth, Time Lords were "the stuff of legend" but she knew of them and never doubted that the Doctor really was a Time Lord. To the crew of the Teselecta in Let's Kill Hitler, Time Lords seem to have been straight historical fact. Finch, in School Reunion, spoke as if he'd heard quite a lot about the Time Lords but had no (or very little) previous personal contact with them. Jabe, the Tree in The End of the World, had technology that could, eventually, identify the Doctor's species and knew immediately that the rest of his people were gone.

The Doctor has, on one occasion, had contact with a pre-Time War Time Lord -- himself in his 5th incarnation. Such contact implies that the pre-Time War Time Lords are still "there", although contact with them has (somehow) been rendered extremely unlikely -- the sort of thing that can only happen by accident.

I can't come up with an explanation of the above but any theory has to explain these things -- including the Doctor's consistent treatment of the time lock as a fact he has to deal with and not as something he himself did. --2.96.28.193 23:37, September 4, 2011 (UTC)

It seems to me that if you're not a time-active species, then something is historical or legendary but can't both have happened and not have happened. Hence the Teselecta's data of the Time Lords as solidly historical.Boblipton 00:22, September 5, 2011 (UTC)

Boblipton: Whatever point you're making isn't clear from what you've said. --2.96.28.193 02:35, September 5, 2011 (UTC)

Sorry for the lack of clarity.

If you're not time-active, something happened or it didn't. There are no branching timelines, no alternate histories, things either happened, may have happened or didn't and the illusion of cause and effect looks very real. Ontological paradoxes (like Melody Pond being named after herself) seem like hypothetical failures of observation and description. People don't suddenly cease to have ever existed, leaving rings, half-eaten meals and faces in photographs. Things like that can't happen. If you are time-active, these things can and do happen, and if you can't think easily in five or more dimensions, they are very disturbing, like the problems of Mr. A. Square in Flatland dealing with a three-dimensional octopus. The crew of the Teselecta are very careful to avoid changing history -- as, indeed, were the timelords were with their past -- for fear of never having existed. Foreknowledge is likewise a problem since it can cause those pesky ontological paradoxes and risks changes to the timeline. If the Doctor believes the record, he must be shot at Lake Silencio while claiming to be over 1100. Of course, if he can arrange things so the records show that but that's not what actually happened -- for example, he might get a ganger substitute -- that may well serve the purpose. I expect there are other ways of arranging things and I trust Moffat to find one, but it all comes down to this: the Doctor knows how to think in these complicated ways to make things sort of stick together and work, and do it on the fly. I ain't that smart. I expect no one here is, especially when Moffat makes the rules. Boblipton 02:55, September 5, 2011 (UTC)

2: The Doctor's relationship with that 5th dimension seems to be similar to our relationship with the 4th. Us normal people can sense, and (with the help of vehicles like airplanes) move at will within, the first 3 dimensions, but not along the 4th. However, occasionally (e.g., Fenric's time storms) we can find ourselves suddenly in the past or future. We can remember things that happened in the past, but can't normally interact with them in any other way.

The Doctor can sense, and (with the help of vehicles like the TARDIS) move at will within, the first 4 dimensions, but not along the 5th. However, occasionally (e.g., when jumping a time track) he can find himself suddenly in the meta-past or meta-future. He can remember things that happened in the meta-past (that is, remember what history was like before it was changed), but can't normally interact with them in any other way.

Obviously, this analogy isn't complete—but it's complete enough to explain all of the facts you want to explain. The main problem is the inability to describe what jumping time tracks and crossing timelines and, most of all, remembering multiple histories is actually _like_ for the Doctor—as Boblipton implies, any theory that could actually do that would probably be beyond our comprehension anyway. And of course it doesn't tell us what the rules are for when the Doctor can jump a time track or otherwise move unexpectedly in the 5th dimension—except that out-of-universe, the rules are "only when it's necessary for a really good story".

So: In some sense, the pre-War Time Lords and Daleks are "still there". In the same sense that the Austro-Hungarian Empire is still there in the past along the 4th dimension, the Dalek Empire is still there in the meta-past along the 5th dimension. And in the same sense that the Austro-Hungarian Empire isn't there in the 3-dimensional present world, the Dalek Empire isn't there in the 4-dimensional meta-present history.

As for the time lock: The IDW comic Don't Step on the Grass explicitly says that it was a side-effect of using the Moment. However, it doesn't really change anything if you reject that. For example, maybe the Daleks created the lock as part of their initial attack on Gallifrey; they "vanished from time and space" into a closed and locked bubble, and took the Time Lords with them, so they could exterminate them without the Time Lords playing their usual tricks of going back in time and un-doing their enemies' moves (which they'd already tried in Genesis, and that's apparently how Rassilon defeated the Great Vampires). Or maybe the lock is something Romana did (maybe at the Doctor's insistence, in exchange for him joining the War) to protect the rest of the universe, as much as possible, from the effects of the War (which seems in-character for them at least early on, when they expected to win). Or countless other possibilities. But what difference does that make to the rest of the story? If the Doctor went to 2170 London right now, and didn't see the Daleks invading, would it matter whether that was because the old 2170 with the Daleks invading were inside the lock, or because the invading Daleks had vanished from 2170 and then separately got stuck in the lock? It might make a difference as far as the Doctor's senses are concerned, but not as far as any story we can understand are concerned. --173.228.85.35 08:11, September 5, 2011 (UTC)

Austro-Hungarian Empire. I like that. I'll offer a slightly different view: the Daleks are still there in 2170. But the Daleks and the Time Lords can no longer go back in time and change things so they win, and no time-active species is going to go back and muck around with the invasion because it may change their past, which they aren't going to risk. There are plenty of artifacts from the Austro-Hungarian empire: buildings and trees and contracts, but they aren't building or planting any more. A friend of mine had a grandfather who set sail from the Austro-Hungarian Empire and when he became a U.S. citizen, had to swear he owed no loyalty to Yugoslavia, of which he had never been a citizen. Austria-Hungary wasn't mentioned. Strange? Yes. Given the way people live, paradoxical. That's how things look when you meddle in space. When you meddle in time, you get similar results.

I think the Time Lords and the Daleks are literally trapped in the moment of their war. Suddenly they are no longer time-active. Maybe the Doctor took all their black holes, but the mechanism is not one I can explain and for our purposes it doesn't matter. Imagine you are a jet-setter. To expand on the previous analogy you fly here and there and meet other jet setters all the time. Your name keeps popping up in the paper and millions of people know about you. Then, suddenly, you are broke and unable to leave your home. You're still there, there are all those records of your having been to Cannes, and people remember you. They just don't see you at Cannes any more. They know you are still around, sort of, and they could visit if they wanted, but they're not going to, because you now live in a terrible room in an awful neighborhood, and whenever you talk, spittle flies from your lips. Also you try to kill everyone for their car keys so you can drive to the Rapture. The Doctor, who took all your money and left you at home, knows you're no longer there because you're not mucking with the time-streams. And he sets things up so he doesn't go where you are because he might let something slip and you'll go back and make sure he doesn't do it. Your name no longer appears in the paper and the people who read the gossip column forget you ever existed. That's what happened to the Daleks and Time Lords. Boblipton 10:43, September 5, 2011 (UTC)

I like your jet-setter analogy. In the present, you're not in Cannes, and you never will be again, but historically you once were there. It doesn't really fit with the time lock: as the same old number 2 explained, it seems like it's not just that the Doctor chooses not to visit the pre-War Daleks and Time Lords, but that (except in special cases) he actually can't. But I think it gets 90% of the way there. If the Doctor locked the entire history of each and every the Time Lord and Daleks in the same location in spacetime, then he can't go back and visit pre-War Romana without opening he door to late-War Rassilon and the Dalek Emperor too. It's like the Doctor had to lock his best friends up in the same tower block as you, so he can't visit them without visiting you.

But that's throwing out everything useful from your last post. The Doctor (and other "higher races") have senses and abilities that we don't, and the writers can and do take advantage of the fact that we don't understand the temporal physics of the Whoniverse the way the Doctor does. We know that the Doctor has such an understanding, and that he's often frustrated in his attempts to communicate it to humans, we can accept that what to him are the clear implications of phrases like "vanished from time and space", "time locked", and "jumped a time track" may to us seem incompletely explained, or even occasionally contradictory. It's obvious to him that he can run into pre-War Daleks after jumping a time track, find pre-War Time Lords after leaving the universe, or meet his old self after a time crash, even though those things are normally impossible. So we have to accept that in those special cases it actually _is_ possible, and yet in normal cases it's not, and we don't really know why.

All that being said, the writers are limited humans like us, and they have some concept in their heads that's in the background of every story they write. It's possible that Moffat's concept is different from RTD's (and of course there are ideas from other writers that sneak in, despite the efforts of the show-runner and his script editor to keep things consistent), so there could be some contradictions. But just because it's possible doesn't mean it's necessarily so. And it seems to me that "the Whoniverse has two real time dimensions" and so on does manage to encompass both of their concepts well enough to explain all of their stories (with the two possible exceptions brought up in this thread, both from early in RTD's writing: Jabe and Rodrick seemed to know more than they should have), and all of the NSAs, and even the vague references to the post-War future in a few BFAs. It's also part of a larger explanation that fans have used for decades before RTD even thought up his LGTW, which has been at least vaguely endorsed on TV and explicitly used in novels. And if it ever does fail, it has the built-in safety valve of "we don't understand 5D physics as well as the Doctor, and we just learned something new" (as arguably happened in Time Crash, Prisoner of the Daleks, and The Doctor's Wife). Finally, it's supported by at least vague references in the classic series, and by explicit exposition in the novels. Put that all together and, as fan-wank goes, it's pretty much gold. --173.228.85.35 01:35, September 6, 2011 (UTC)

Moffat is very good at distracting us with jokes. "To answer your question -- look! It's Halley's comet! Any other questions?" Boblipton 01:57, September 6, 2011 (UTC)

Fortunately, at least RTD would never try to distract or confuse us with a joke into, say, forgetting the long-established, well-known fact that Time Lords only get 507 regenerations. --173.228.85.35 04:09, September 6, 2011 (UTC)

::::

Meeting pre-Time War Time Lords: According to Alex Kingston in an interview, River Song has met many past incarnations of the Doctor, being sent (by his 11th incarnation and/or a later one) into his past to help him out in situations where he knows her expertise would be useful. This certainly hasn't yet been confirmed in any televised episode but it has been stated that River's diary contains pictures of all his incarnations, but without indicating what order they should be in, so she can recognise him. The very fact that the Doctor thinks she needs to know what his pre-Time War incarnations look like indicates he thinks it's possible she might meet them. If Alex Kingston is right (and hasn't been lied to by Steven Moffat), River actually does meet them -- and not by accident. Of course, that would raise several problems. Most obviously, if the Doctor has repeatedly met River in his past, why did he not recognise her in Silence in the Library? That (and several other possible problems) can be avoided by assuming River is careful to make sure she disguises herself and doesn't give away "spoilers" -- a reasonable assumption, considering what we've seen of her. It means, though, that the pre-Time War Doctor remains "accessible" to a post-Time War time traveller and it doesn't require an unlikely accident (as in Time Crash) for her to meet him. It might still be the case that a post-Time War Time Lord would be unable to meet a pre-Time War Time Lord, except by accident. River isn't a Time Lord -- she'd not need pictures of the Doctor, if she were. --78.146.182.150 02:11, September 17, 2011 (UTC)

There are about thirty assumptions in your argument, including what a Time Lord is, exactly what Time Lord abilities River has, whether the Doctor's past is timelocked -- certainly TIME CRASH would seem to indicate it is not -- and whether she does indeed have pictures of "all his faces". Just because Alex Kingston says so as Alex Kingston is no reason to think that River Song thinks she does, and even if she does think so, is no reason to believe that she actually does. Between the Doctor lying, River lying and Moffat lying -- well, even if I saw it on the tv screen, I'm not sure I'd believe it. Boblipton 02:57, September 17, 2011 (UTC)

Boblipton: If you'd prefer I used the term "traditional-style Gallifreyan Time Lord" where I've just used "Time Lord", fine. It'd make a longish paragraph even longer, but maybe you'd not mind that. River did say she had pictures of all the Doctor's faces but, yes, she might have been lying. Maybe she can recognise the Doctor in the same way the Doctor recognised the Master. Maybe almost everything she says is a lie. Maybe she and the Doctor are both lying and there's never been (or will be) such an entity as Jim the Fish. Maybe Alex Kingston was lying and/or had been lied to by Steven Moffat. I do recognise the information might not be reliable and I said so -- "If Alex Kingston is right (and hasn't been lied to by Steven Moffat)," for example. Caution is one thing but "even if I saw it on the tv screen, I'm not sure I'd believe it" is excessive to the point of dementia. Take that approach and you might as well give up discussing anything that's said in or about the show, so why bother posting anything anywhere on this site? --78.146.182.150 03:28, September 17, 2011 (UTC)

I was indulging in a bit of hyperbole. Like River and the Doctor always meeting in reverse order. Boblipton 10:55, September 17, 2011 (UTC)

1. Time-aware races may be able to perceive the change in time, i.e. the abrupt end to Gallifrey. Non-time-aware races may simply hear about the end of the Last Great Time War
2. Gallifrey existed in a different earlier time and was never literally erased from history, but merely time locked
3. "Time lock" may or may not mean that it is impossible to travel to Gallifrey before the Last Great Time War, but since Daleks and Doctor don't and we know that it is illegal to do so and it has dire consequences; for the sake of the story's narration, we can effectively consider it a rule (whether self-imposed or externally imposed) that prohibited any party from traveling back
4. Gallifrey's history still happened, as shown by the time-aware aliens and Sarah Jane, etc, but the time lock rule is in effect
5. Erasing the whole Gallifrey from history would probably not have been such a heroic act since everything would be thrown into chaos...time and history would be a very big mess, especially considering the number of travelling timelords that we have seen throughout the stories...thej histories of earth, the universe, and possibly other parallel universes would have to accomodate for the timelords that have intervened --222.166.181.129 02:53, September 18, 2011 (UTC)

While obviously not everything Boblipton said can be taken literally, his basic point seems right. 74 has taken a bunch of once-mentioned facts and extrapolated from them to prove that pre-Time War Time Lords (and Daleks) must stll be accessible. But it seems pretty clear that it's Moffat's intention, just as it was RTD's before him, that they're not. The idea of meeting just one other Time Lord is supposed to be exciting and unexpected and well-nigh impossible; the whole emotional weight of the first part of The Doctor's Wife depends on that. The Time Lords aren't just gone from the present, they're gone from history, or at least from whatever parts of history the Doctor can get to, except in very exceptional situations. And the same goes for RTD episodes like Last of the Time Lords. So, even if all of your arguments are sound, all it would prove is that Moffat had accidentally implied something that he didn't intend to and still hasn't realized, and it's hard to believe that he'd find himself bound by that: "Oops, looks like I proved that you can still visit pre-War Gallifrey, I guess I'll have to set an episode every season in the middle of the Panopticon now." --70.36.140.19 13:27, September 17, 2011 (UTC)

Okay.... [unsigned]

It was fairly solidly established in the classic series that time travel to Gallifrey's past was "forbidden". That has to mean more than just "illegal" because the Time Lords' enemies wouldn't be stopped by mere legislation. Gallifrey's past must have been protected somehow, even if it was never explained exactly how. The Time War (not just Gallifrey but the whole war) is time locked. None of the things said about River impinge on either of these restrictions. What was said (if I understand rightly) was that River could somehow meet the Doctor's past incarnations. The Doctor was seldom on Gallifrey, anyway, so meeting him doesn't need to mean meeting him there. The idea of River being sent to meet the Doctor's past incarnations is an intriguing idea but (so far) it's nothing more than that. --89.242.69.152 08:23, September 18, 2011 (UTC)

Further thoughts on Boblipton's hyperbole: Overstating to make a point is, if not overdone, fair enough but I have to say that, this time, it was so overdone I'm not sure even that a point exists. I simply have to give the benefit of the doubt and assume there was one. Boblipton overdoing the hyperbole once is no great disaster -- as Ace said several times, "Nobody's perfect, Professor!" -- but the one thing that really is very clear from what he said is that he's reacting strongly against being misled so much by Moffat (directly and through others). He's not alone in that and, given that the people who post on sites like this are people who care about the show, that's a danger signal. Moffat needs to reign this in before it does real damage. I'd not be fussed if he stopped people watching Sherlock by making them mistrust everything and thereby cease to care; if he did that to Doctor Who, I'd be very, very upset indeed. --89.242.69.152 09:38, September 18, 2011 (UTC)

Speaking for myself -- who else? -- it's not a problem. I enjoy mysteries, and everyone lies. Boblipton 15:00, September 18, 2011 (UTC)

It's fine (or better) when we don't know what's going to happen. It's equally fine if we don't immediately know what has happened -- as long as it is eventually revealed. What we've seen wasn't quite what it looked like? Also OK -- again, as long as it is eventually revealed. But if things become so obscure and unreliable that we can never figure out what's going on or have to wait so long that people give up on the show, that's damaging. I'm not saying SM shouldn't create mysteries and plant red herrings; I'm saying he mustn't overdo it and he's approaching the limit. I've heard (how reliably, I don't know) that SM intends Series 7 to be less "arc-heavy" than Series 6, with much less emphasis on a prolonged puzzle. If so, that's good. As SM has said, the Daleks needed to be "rested" because they'd stop working if they appeared all the time. The prolonged, intensive mysteries are like that, too: great as long as not overdone. By the end of Series 6, we'll need a rest from them, so they'll work again in the future. (Mysteries within a single episode or a 2-episode story are another matter, of course. It'd be a bit dull without them.) Having the existence of the entire universe in peril can also be done too often and it has been done rather a lot recently. --89.242.66.251 21:01, September 18, 2011 (UTC)

If it's just Gallifrey, not Time Lords from pre-LGTW, who are inaccessible, then there would still be Time Lords for the Doctor to meet. He wouldn't go rushing outside the universe the first time it occurred to him that there might be a Time Lord outside the universe. He wouldn't even call himself the last of his kind. Clearly, the Doctor cannot meet any other Time Lords except in very special situations (like finding one outside the universe, jumping a time track, etc.).

As for 89's posts, the idea that Moffat is endangering the show by making things too complicated or too misleading is just this year's version of the same hysteria that springs up in the UK every year about how Doctor Who has changed and is in danger of failure. You can go back and look at the BBC's audience appreciation reports for every year from 1964 to 2010 and see that about 15% of the audience believe that the producers have made Doctor Who too violent, too childish, too complicated, too simplistic, whatever. It's a different complaint every year, but every time, all of the complainers agree. And they always predict that it will be the death of the show, about half of them saying they're going to stop watching, the other half saying "It's fine for me, but most viewers aren't smart enough to deal with it" or "I don't mind the violence, but the kids will be scared away" or whatever. Every year, that same complaint spreads all over the mass-media talk shows and becomes something "everyone knows". And yet, it's always forgotten the next year, when people find a new thing that's wrong with the show—and soon they're referring to last year as an example of when the show did things right. This seems to be the same kind of hysteria that leads to everyone suddenly agreeing that Oasis are a cheap knockoff of the Beatles exactly 9 months after they're on the cover of the NME (and likewise for anyone else who makes the cover).

The weirdest thing about it is the fact that the complainers are not just absolutely convinced, most of them are angry and defensive about it. I forget which talk show it was on, but one of the presenters asked Matt Smith whether the show was too complicated to follow this year, her co-presenter told her that he'd just watched the last episode, without having seen any of the previous ones, and had no problems following it—and people in the audience tried to shout him down. As if it was somehow a personal affront to them that someone would deny the idea that series 6 is too complex. --70.36.140.19 02:26, September 19, 2011 (UTC)

"there would still be Time Lords for the Doctor to meet": In the classic series, before the Time War, the Doctor only rarely met other Time Lords and, except for the multi-Doctor stories, those he did meet were at contemporary points in their time lines -- he never encountered the Master out of sequence, for example, except in The Five Doctors. Even in the multi-Doctor stories, the other Time Lords he met were always contemporary with the most recent of the Doctor's incarnations. In The Five Doctors, it was stated that meeting his own past/future incarnations was something permitted only in the gravest of emergencies "like now". What was said above was not that there were still Time Lords from before the Time War for the Doctor to meet but that, from what Alex Kingston said she'd been told about River, it seemed possible that River could meet Time Lords from before the Time War -- and maybe others could, too: River and (perhaps) others but not the Doctor.

What I said about Moffat was not that he'd changed the show for the worse (he hasn't) but that he's getting close to the limit of what will work and needs to ring the changes a bit to avoid doing damage. I'm not arguing against change but for it. It's not a case of the current approach not working; it's a case of it being time to do something different for a while, so the current approach will work again, later on. It doesn't matter what the thing is, if you keep on doing the same thing, over and over and over without a break, it gets tired and stops working. There's nowt hysterical about saying that. I think it was Julie Gardner who said that the reason Doctor Who has such success nearly 50 years after it started is that, like the Doctor himself, it regenerates -- the looks change, the mannerisms change, etc., etc., but the essence of the thing continues. Her point was that both things, the change and the continuity, are needed. --89.242.66.251 03:58, September 19, 2011 (UTC)

Apologies, I think I conflated you with an unsigned poster on a different thread who talked about how he wasn't going to take any more of Moffat's crap, etc., which is clearly not what you were saying. Moffat himself has said similar things to you, so obviously it's not hysterical or unreasonable. (Although he's focused more on his inability to think up arc plots that are interesting enough to be worth this kind of effort year after year than about it being too much of the same thing, he's touched on that as well.)

1. there are incredibly little travelling Timelords to begin with and much less intervening ones that would make themselves accessible to other people
2. the doctor himself has once said to Wilf that people spent hundred of years intentionally looking for him and it's still highly unlikely that they will find him
3. Jack, even knowing when and where the Doctor will be, had to wait for a couple hundred of years to find him and had to risk his life by clinging onto the Tardis, and the Doctor is only roughly a thousand year old
4. Amy and Rory managed to contact the Doctor in Let's Kill Hitler pretty much only because the Doctor had unfinished business with them (finding Melody)
5. The Doctor hangs around 20/21st Century UK a lot, explaining how UK characters (e.g. Donna) manage to find/bump into him

Well, first of all, meeting a timelord is pretty much less likely than winning as lottery, we know that:

since the Doctor has already bumped into several timelords and himself, each of this occurence just makes it so much less likely for him to bump into another Timelord. Secondly, we were also told that timetravelling made the middle of the time war extremely complex, we only know that there is an edge to the Time War but we don't know how far the edge extends, possibly the Time War's edge could have been before the birth of the Doctor (making it highly improbable for him to meet any Timelord he is acquainted with)or even the founding of Galifrey (meaning the whole history is locked in a way that any surviving Time Lords would be impossible to make contact with any instance of any Time Lord before the end of the War, i.e., the Tardis cannot travel to a time/place where it would open up the possibility for the Doctor to contact anyone involved in the war). This is not to say that it's impossible for the Doctor to meet anyone involved in the war or any other Timelords, the post-Time War Doctor met himself in an instance of his pre-Time War self, the Daleks, the Master, etc. The point is that these individuals are not timelocked (i.e., they were not in the warzone and obviously the Doctor didn't lock himself) or have resolved the timelock through extremely unlikely mean (e.g., Davros, Rassilon). River was never a part of the time lock and was never involved in the Time War, but at the same time it is highly unlikely that you would run into any individual that have met River because all of history and future and the entire Universe is really big. Moreover, we have not seen River identifying herself as a Timelady, we only know that she has at least certain timelord biology.222.166.181.144 14:45, September 25, 2011 (UTC)

Back on topic, I think it would be odd if the other Time Lords were there for others to meet, but not the Doctor. If you look at all the "higher species" types that the Doctor has met since 2005, they're all surprised to see a Time Lord—that is, after all, the whole point of this thread. It's possible that River is somehow an exception to that rule, but if so, how and why? (Of course that could be an important part of the Mystery of River Song… but I don't think so, given that there's only one River Song episode left this season, and next season is supposed to be about episodic storytelling rather than overarching mysteries. So, it seems more likely that it's either a relatively trivial part of the Mystery of River Song, or not the case at all.) --70.36.140.19 05:08, September 19, 2011 (UTC)

From the 1963-89 run of the show, when there were meetings between Time Lords away from Gallifrey, it seems they never meet out of sequence (as has been mentioned already) but Time Lords do sometimes meet non-Time Lords out of sequence -- the Doctor met Mel Bush out of sequence, for example. That implies there are rules that restrict Time Lord/Time Lord meetings but those rules don't apply to Time Lord/non-Time Lord meetings. Obviously, there can be and have been exceptions, especially the multi-Doctor stories. In the multi-Doctor stories themselves, though, it's been explicitly stated that such meetings are permitted only in "the gravest emergencies -- like now" (The Five Doctors). In Time Crash, it was an accident, and a very unlikely one, at that. Given that difference between Time Lord/Time Lord meetings and Time Lord/non-Time Lord meetings, it's not "odd if the other Time Lords were there for others to meet, but not the Doctor" -- at least, it's no more odd than the situation we already know about. Without going into the controversy of whether River should or shouldn't be described as a Time Lord, she's obviously not prevented from meeting the Doctor out of sequence, since she does that a lot. If what Alex Kingston said in the interview is accurate (and that is, admittedly, a big "if"), it would make sense that the Doctor was sending River to help his past selves specifically because he couldn't do it himself.

As for Donna managing to find the Doctor again: The conversation towards the end of Turn Left showed that the Doctor thought it was surprising and it was pretty strongly implied in Journey's End that she met up with him again only because Dalek Caan was manipulating the timelines to make sure she did. The Doctor also thought it was surprising that Wilf managing to find him in The End of Time and speculated that there was again some kind of hidden manipulation going on. The appearances to Wilf of the unidentified woman (a Time Lord) indicate the Doctor was right to suspect that. --89.242.71.211 13:03, September 26, 2011 (UTC)

On a related note, it was heavily implied in a number of the Virgin novels produced after the classic series was cancelled, that the Doctor's "present" Gallifrey was some time in the distant past of contemporary Earth (I think this comes across in Paul Cornell's Goth Opera). But in The Trial of a Time Lord, it's said that the Andromedan Sleepers were able to sneak into the Matrix on Gallifrey and steal some of its secrets, and for the Sleepers, this was around 1,999,500 AD. So it would appear that outsiders, regardless of what era in time they originated from, could only interact with Gallifrey itself in its home time zone. Then again, isn't there some implication that the Sleepers were able to enter the Matrix because the Master had a hand in helping them, so they would only have had access to the Master's current Gallifrey (I believe it's mentioned somewhere that Time Lords could never visit Gallifrey's past or future)? 82.2.136.93 17:03, November 6, 2011 (UTC)