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Theory talk:Timeline - Thirteenth Doctor: Difference between revisions
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Theory talk:Timeline - Thirteenth Doctor (edit)
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So, Graham and Ryan left (presumably forever) in ''[[Revolution of the Daleks (TV story)|Revolution of the Daleks]]'', and there's still a few unplaced adventures with them in. I'm not sure if Titan Comics are finished with the characters yet, but for the stories so far that lead directly into each other, between Nikola Tesla's Night of Terror and Fugitive of the Judoon seems a good place for them, as the events of NTNT are revisited, and the companians know abot the Doctor's past. For the Series 11 design used for the TARDIS, maybe it was nostalgic. Although ''[[The White Dragon (comic story)|The White Dragon]]'' isn't fully published yet, the Doctor tells Ryan that she's warned him before about telling people their future, implying a setting after Rosa, the TARDIS team don't seem to have been to Hong Kong before, which might explain why they don't stray from their errand in Praxeus, and Yaz tries to buy some jewllery for her family, which might indicate that she hasn't seen them in a while. I'd like to get a second opinion though. [[User:CharlieCon|CharlieCon]] [[User talk:CharlieCon|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 19:04, 25 February 2021 (UTC) | So, Graham and Ryan left (presumably forever) in ''[[Revolution of the Daleks (TV story)|Revolution of the Daleks]]'', and there's still a few unplaced adventures with them in. I'm not sure if Titan Comics are finished with the characters yet, but for the stories so far that lead directly into each other, between Nikola Tesla's Night of Terror and Fugitive of the Judoon seems a good place for them, as the events of NTNT are revisited, and the companians know abot the Doctor's past. For the Series 11 design used for the TARDIS, maybe it was nostalgic. Although ''[[The White Dragon (comic story)|The White Dragon]]'' isn't fully published yet, the Doctor tells Ryan that she's warned him before about telling people their future, implying a setting after Rosa, the TARDIS team don't seem to have been to Hong Kong before, which might explain why they don't stray from their errand in Praxeus, and Yaz tries to buy some jewllery for her family, which might indicate that she hasn't seen them in a while. I'd like to get a second opinion though. [[User:CharlieCon|CharlieCon]] [[User talk:CharlieCon|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 19:04, 25 February 2021 (UTC) | ||
:''Alternating Current'' ended on a cliffhanger, so they’re definitely not done with Ryan and Graham just yet. As for the placing, a setting after ''Night of Terror'' is undeniable, but jury’s still out on which side of ''Fugitive''/''Praxeus'' it happens on. The TARDIS interior design is most likely just an error. [[User:WaltK|WaltK]] [[User talk:WaltK|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 20:39, 25 February 2021 (UTC) | :''Alternating Current'' ended on a cliffhanger, so they’re definitely not done with Ryan and Graham just yet. As for the placing, a setting after ''Night of Terror'' is undeniable, but the jury’s still out on which side of ''Fugitive''/''Praxeus'' it happens on. The TARDIS interior design is most likely just an error. ''White Dragon'' can also take place just about anywhere between ''Spyfall'' and ''CYHM?'', as long as it's after ''Piggybackers''. Yaz wanting to buy jewellery for her sister doesn't mean anything; one could easily travel somewhere for a day or two and decide they want to bring something back for their family at home. [[User:WaltK|WaltK]] [[User talk:WaltK|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 20:39, 25 February 2021 (UTC) | ||
:: You know, I honestly forgot that the team also went to Hong Kong in ''Praxeus''. That being said, ''White Dragon'' doesn't mention that they've been there before, neither is the reverse true for ''Praxeus'' (obviously because the TV show has no business in referencing an offshoot story that hadn't even come out by then, let alone at all). I'll leave you guys to figure that one out. [[User:WaltK|WaltK]] [[User talk:WaltK|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 20:52, 25 February 2021 (UTC) | |||
: ''[[A Little Help from My Friends (comic story)|A Little Help from my Friends]]''/''[[Alternating Current (comic story)|Alternating Current]]'' certainly could fit between ''Nikola Tesla'' and ''Fugitive'', and indeed that’s where I added that storyline in the biography on [[Thirteenth Doctor]], but whatever story follows on from the cliffhanger may change things. I’d be happy for them to be slotted in that gap until said story actually comes along, but others may disagree on that. I can’t think of anything in ''[[The White Dragon (comic story)|The White Dragon]]'' that says whether the Fam have been to Hong Kong before or not, so it could work anywhere in Series 12 really. Best to wait till it’s finished, case the final part sheds more light on this (which is due out next week I think, so not long to wait). [[User:SherlockTheII|SherlockTheII]] [[User talk:SherlockTheII|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 00:26, 26 February 2021 (UTC) | |||
::Btw, I recently learned from a writer of ''Doctor Who'' on Twitter, that the audios/comics/novels of ''Doctor Who'' are '''very''' restricted as to what they can refer to. Most of these writers wish to reference other things in the franchise to help fans place the story, but are highly restricted due to license. Usually the only thing that they are able to mention is the television episodes, and even then, their bosses ask them not to for reasons that baffle me. The reason I bring this up is this: the only true way to know authorial intent is to ask the author. You're not going to get any in-universe help from the characters, and that's normally down to very tight licensing issues forcing the editors' hands. The writers themselves will probably have very clear authorial intent, and actually the "true" placement was probably mentioned in the briefing. [[User:Thefartydoctor|<font color="blue">The</font><font color="silver">Farty</font><font color="red">Doctor</font>]] [[User talk:Thefartydoctor|<small><sup><font color="green">Talk</font></sup></small>]] 08:42, 26 February 2021 (UTC) | |||
:Does Ryan tend to call Graham by name a lot post-''It Takes You Away''? Because that's about one of the only indicator I can think of in ''[[The Warmonger (comic story)|The Warmonger]]'' (besides later DWM comics refering to it.) I haven't read a lot of 13th Doctor comics and novels so I don't know if its too common an occurence to be meaningful. | |||
:[[Special:Contributions/173.176.173.131|173.176.173.131]]<sup>[[User talk:173.176.173.131#top|talk to me]]</sup> 12:54, 23 June 2021 (UTC) | |||
:: Ryan only calls Graham “grandad” like 2 or 3 times onscreen after It Takes You Away. It’s far more mixed in the EU because of course the writers assumed that he’d call Ryan grandad all the time. IMO we shouldn’t use what Ryan calls Graham as evidence except to place stories where he calls Graham grandad after It Takes You Away. And of course stories where he directly refuses to call him grandad before that. [[User:SarahJaneFan|SarahJaneFan]] [[User talk:SarahJaneFan|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 13:52, 23 June 2021 (UTC) | |||
== Potential for adventures between Vanquishers and EotD == | |||
Can we be certain that a story like ''It{{'}}s Behind You'' can pheasably take place between ''Vanquishers'' and ''Eve of the Daleks''? It's just the beginning of the latter implies a setting very shortly after the former... [[User:WaltK|WaltK]] [[User talk:WaltK|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 01:01, 6 January 2022 (UTC) | |||
* Well we know from Dan's comment about the Doctor saving the universe that at least a week passes between ''The Vanquishers'' and ''Eve''. ''It's Behind You'' is a very very short story (its entire plot is literally just they go to a panto and wacky things happen) so it can slot in there with no bother in my opinion. [[User:SherlockTheII|SherlockTheII]] [[User talk:SherlockTheII|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 12:15, 6 January 2022 (UTC) | |||
I personally wouldn't want to put anything pre-Eve. Obviously there's Dan's line about The Vanquishers being last week and we know some time passed for Dan between the Flux ending and the Doctor and Yaz coming back to pick him up. That paired with the fact they're fixing the TARDIS up and Yaz mentions that they're supposed to have a moment on the beach where the Doctor explains everything. It doesn't feel as though anything should go between the two stories. But I also feel like we're in a difficult position as the ending of Eve looks as though it's going to lead into the next episode and so we could potentially end up having no gaps at all except the week between The Vanquishers and Eve of the Daleks. | |||
Having It's Behind You before Eve isn't a huge issue because it's a very small scale story but I think if we get a better gap it would be more appropriate to place it there. [[User:SarahJaneFan|SarahJaneFan]] [[User talk:SarahJaneFan|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 13:21, 6 January 2022 (UTC) | |||
: Prefixing this by saying that I haven't seen series 12 and ''Flux'' yet, but that seems to be the logical thing to do. | |||
: It would be odd for the TARDIS to be damaged in ''The Vanquishers'', usable enough to go to a panto in ''It's Behind You'', and then damaged in ''Eve of the Daleks''. The logical order, to me, is ''TV'', ''EotD'', then ''IBY'', else we might start fudging it. | |||
: That being said, I wouldn't be surprised if no gaps are presented before the Thirteenth Doctor's regeneration, so this gap may have to become where we place these stories. Hey, it's not like short gaps have been tenuously extended before to fit a bunch of Fifth Doctor + Peri and Fifth Doctor + Peri + Erimem stories! <div style="background-color:#0E234E; border: solid 0.5px gold; display: inline; white-space: nowrap;">[[doctorwho:user:Epsilon the Eternal|<span style="background:#0E234E; color:white"><code>Epsilon</code></span>]][[doctorwho:user talk:Epsilon the Eternal|📯]] [[doctorwho:special:Contributions/Epsilon the Eternal|📂]]</div> 13:28, 6 January 2022 (UTC) | |||
== Placement for Redacted? == | |||
I asked this on the Redacted talk page, but since I was apparently redirected here (hard to tell when someone just posts a link instead of an actual reply)... Do we know when in the Thirteenth Doctor's timeline this take places? Between which series/stories? Is it before ''Flux'', or after ''Legend of the Sea Devils'', or somewhere else? --[[User:TimPendragon|TimPendragon]] [[User talk:TimPendragon|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 00:15, 23 September 2022 (UTC) | |||
We don’t know specifically, but considering that it’s set in 2022 and Graham and Ryan disappear from Earth, it would be strange for the Doctor to be from earlier in her own timeline. It’s more than likely after Flux. Eve of the Daleks is shortly after Flux, and Legend of the Sea Devils is immediately after Eve. And Redacted started airing after Legend of the Sea Devils so it makes sense that it goes there. [[User:SarahJaneFan|SarahJaneFan]] [[User talk:SarahJaneFan|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 00:37, 23 September 2022 (UTC) | |||
== Secret in Vault 13 and other inconsistencies/oddities == | |||
Now that jodie's era is over I think it is time to smooth out the remaining kinks in the timeline. | |||
* <s>1. Secret in vault 13 | |||
Can someone please tell me what is even going on with this one? I haven't read it yet. Looking at this talk page it seems to be all over the place. | |||
* 2. Maze of Doom | |||
continues from vault 13 | |||
* 3. Dr. Thirteenth | |||
Yaz's birthday. but the profiles in all of the titan comics say she is 19, so that possibly places it after the timelord victorious stuff? Also she is 20 in "Vault 13".</s> | |||
* 4. Old Friends | |||
Either goes right before mistress of chaos (Going by release date) or right after it (going by grouping the DWM stuff together). | |||
* 5. Day of the Doctor (first segment) | |||
Either goes at the begining the subheading (TV release date) or where it is (novelisation release date). | |||
* <s>6. At Childhoods End | |||
So because of brax's meddling causing everything surrounding ace to be "blurred and contradictory" after the events of "Love and War" wouldn't this be some sort of time splinter/clone of the doctor and not the real doctor?</s> | |||
I hope as a comunity we can sort out these problems. | |||
[[User:Tellymustard|Tellymustard]] [[User talk:Tellymustard|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 19:06, 12 November 2022 (UTC) | |||
: No, why would it be a splinter of the ''Doctor''? The whole point of the weirdness of Ace's timeline, as with Peri, is that there are multiple versions of her superimposed in the ''same'' wider universe. Her having different fates in different parallel universes with their own Earths and their own Doctors would just be business as usual. <span style="color: #baa3d6;font-family:Comic Sans;">[[User:Scrooge MacDuck|'''Scrooge MacDuck''']]</span> <span style="color: #baa3d6;">[[User_talk:Scrooge MacDuck|⊕]]</span> 19:24, 12 November 2022 (UTC) | |||
:: I wasn’t sure about it.This makes more sense. [[User:Tellymustard|Tellymustard]] [[User talk:Tellymustard|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 21:09, 12 November 2022 (UTC) | |||
1. The Secret of Vault 13 was one of the first pieces of 13th Doctor media released and was written with only the first Series 11 script and some character sheets for context. There’s quite a few continuity issues in it. For example Team TARDIS know all about the Doctor being a Time Lord from Gallifrey despite this being released before Spyfall. But virtually all pre-Series 12 13th Doctor material has this issue. The story states that Team TARDIS have been travelling with the Doctor for a few months and Ryan calls Graham grandad which suggests a setting towards the end of Series 11. They visit home in 2018, however it is stated that the Doctor returned them to the wrong time so that’s easily explainable. | |||
2. The Maze of Doom picks up immediately from the cliffhanger at the end of The Secret of Vault 13 and references the events of Resolution explicitly. Ryan also states that he’s only been travelling with the Doctor for a short time. So both novels should be placed shortly after the events of Resolution. | |||
3. The Titan comics all use the exact same profiles for the entire run. Yaz is supposed to be 19 at the beginning of Series 11 in 2018. The comics are still saying she’s 19 by the time of the Thirteenth Doctor Year 2 which are explicitly set in Series 12 after Nikola Tesla's Night of Terror, over a year after Series 11. Those profiles shouldn’t be followed, they’re just recycled material that haven’t been adjusted for the passing of time. Dr Thirteenth should go somewhere in Series 11 and before The Secret in Vault 13 where she has explicitly already turned 20. | |||
4. Old Friends should go shortly before Time Out of Mind, as Ryan makes a comment about the Corsair that implies they encountered her recently. Time Out of Mind itself is a Christmas special and Graham and Ryan mention that it’s Christmas back at home and as earlier Titan stories were set in 2019 and had Ryan calling Graham grandad, this must be soon before Spyfall. The first year of Titan comics are difficult because they don’t feel like they take place over a long period of time, but the first one is clearly not set that far away from Series 11 and the last one is shortly before Series 12 so you unavoidably have to spread them out across the year. | |||
5. It should be by the novelisation release date because Thirteen wasn’t in the tv story. I personally think it should be set somewhere around the time of Series 11. At least I don’t think it should be tied into her Series 12 arc at all as it was released years before it. | |||
6. Agreed with Scrooge, and also sometimes there just are contradictions and it’s better for the integrity of the timeline that we present them as intended. It does no one any good to present At Childhood's End as being an alternate timeline for the Doctor specifically because we have no in-universe evidence of that beyond us knowing that there’s some dodgy stuff surrounding Ace’s history. [[User:SarahJaneFan|SarahJaneFan]] [[User talk:SarahJaneFan|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 23:12, 12 November 2022 (UTC) | |||
:1. It seems like it should be post spyfall. | |||
:2. The short time statement is more minor and subjective than the knoledge about the Timelords | |||
:3. K | |||
:4. This simply does not work. It needs to be before the lion, the glitch, and the war zone. | |||
:5. If we are going by the novelization date it is good right now. The second segment is simply in the next solo gap. | |||
[[User:Tellymustard|Tellymustard]] [[User talk:Tellymustard|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 12:18, 13 November 2022 (UTC) | |||
1. Its 100% not after Spyfall. There’s no evidence to suggest it is unless you want to move literally all EU content with 13 to after Spyfall because virtually all of it has the same issues with the Fam knowing about the Doctor’s origins. | |||
4. It does work because The Liar, The Glitch and the Warzone can take place anywhere in the timeline. It was written and released with absolutely no context of Series 11 because they weren’t even supposed to be publishing 13th Doctor stories yet. [[User:SarahJaneFan|SarahJaneFan]] [[User talk:SarahJaneFan|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] | |||
:1. K, I agree. | |||
:4. Give me the exact quote from the holiday special. | |||
[[User:Tellymustard|Tellymustard]] [[User talk:Tellymustard|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 18:18, 13 November 2022 (UTC) | |||
:: A "please" wouldn't go amiss. [[User:BananaClownMan|BananaClownMan]] [[User talk:BananaClownMan|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 18:47, 13 November 2022 (UTC) | |||
== ''The Good Doctor'' == | |||
When it first came out, it was noted that, in ''The Good Doctor'', Ryan nearly calls Graham his granddad, thus it being placed with the other BBC Books around ''It Takes You Away''. Now that notes been removed. I don't have the book, since I wasn't in a good financial place when it came out, so I can't check it myself, and I'm not sure if it was removed because of a miscommunication with the Granddad line that's just come to light, or it was removed by mistake. If someone with the book could please clear the air for me, I will would be most grateful. [[User:BananaClownMan|BananaClownMan]] [[User talk:BananaClownMan|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 18:47, 13 November 2022 (UTC) | |||
Mistake, sorry about that. I got it back where it was with the info restored (Sadly after a lot of edit warring with an user that was in a bad mood. [[User:Tellymustard|Tellymustard]] [[User talk:Tellymustard|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 21:13, 13 November 2022 (UTC) | |||
:: Yes in The Good Doctor, Ryan calls out to Graham at one point when he’s in danger and begins to shout “grandad”, but cuts himself off and corrects to “Graham”. I interpreted this as meaning it’s later in Series 11 when he’s beginning to accept Graham as his grandfather but hasn’t quite admitted it yet like he does in It Takes You Away. [[User:SarahJaneFan|SarahJaneFan]] [[User talk:SarahJaneFan|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 18:03, 14 November 2022 (UTC) | |||
== Edit thing == | |||
What exactly are the problems with the edits that have been reversed by bananaclownman? Like I know I have done some iffy edits on other pages, but here I just further sorted it by releease order, added a missing story and put and introducing in a place that makes more sense. [[User:Tellymustard|Tellymustard]] [[User talk:Tellymustard|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 06:38, 14 November 2022 (UTC) | |||
: Release order was for arbitrary placements ''only'', and the edits are precisely why I argued against such a thing with User:SarahJaneFan all those years ago; because I knew one day someone would come along and just use the release dates when the timelines require so much more insight. ''And Introducing...'' is just one page, so it can easily slip into a subheading where the TARDIS crew are heading back to Sheffield, which is why only a select few stories are there; you'd think one of the companiond would mention trying to get home like they do in ''Rosa''. ''Coming soon...'' was a causality of undoing counterproductive edits that have done more harm than good to this page, such as the likes of ''John Smith's Google Maps reviews'' being paced before a story that is explicitly stated to referencing astory that is now later in the timeline. Also, the subheadings keep DWM stories together for omnibuses and story arcs, and some stories are placed ahead of stories released later to keep "recent" events close, like keeping ''The Tsuranga Conundrum'' as close to ''The Ghost Monument'' as possible. . Finally, you've brought back some poor grammer that was fixed on ''The Good Doctor''. | |||
: This will the last time you hear from me, on talk pages and edit summaries. I've decided that, with your counterproductive edits that lean to far to the extreme, your harassment of myself and other editors, use of racially insensitive comments to the albino community, derogative use of "American", foul language and refusal to listen to seasoned editors' advice, that you are simply no longer worth the time. Sincerely, [[User:BananaClownMan|BananaClownMan]] [[User talk:BananaClownMan|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 07:05, 14 November 2022 (UTC) | |||
: The thing with release order is that we really just use it for stories with a more arbitrary placement, because yes it would be messy and chaotic if we placed them in any random jumbled order without reasoning. However that doesn’t really happen on these timelines nowadays. We narrow down evidence as best as we can from each story, and we also take into account other things such as authorial intent or when it was released in order to place each story in the most accurate context. Realistically, EU stories aren’t written to take place in release order with televised stories unless it’s in a season gap. Particularly with Series 11, the EU writers were given very little information to work with and therefore that’s resulted in stories scattered all over the S11 timeline mainly due to intricacies in Graham & Ryan's relationship. | |||
: When we talk about release order here, it’s usually referring to release order within a specific gap, rather than in general because there’s very little content that’s actually going to be released while each series is airing and ultimately the timeline will consist primarily of content released after Power of the Doctor. Also when it comes to comics, release order is basically useless because it’s serialised, and it’s better to look at the full run of stories in its own individual context rather than trying to intersperse it with stories or even comics from a different publisher being released around the same time. For example, Mistress of Chaos finished releasing around the same time Spyfall was released and A Little Help from My Friends started being released. However these three stories don’t take place close together. Mistress of Chaos takes place a few months into the Fam's travels, Spyfall is over a year in and then A Little Help from My Friends ended up taking place after Nikola Tesla's Night of Terror despite the fact it’s first issue dropped before that story even aired. | |||
: Release order works as a rule for an instance like this: A short story with 13 and Yaz is released in January, and then a comic featuring that pair is later released in October. We can immediately narrow down that both stories take place between Series 12 and 13. However there might not be any evidence to suggest which way around those two stories take place within that gap, so we defer to release order because it’s tidier. This isn’t the answer to placing every story however and we should really work things out on a case by case basis. | |||
: The way I approach placing a story is to use all the evidence the story gives you to narrow it down to as close a placement as you possibly can with the evidence directly from the story itself. Then if you haven’t got a solid placement from that, it’s when you explore things like covers, authors notes and release orders. It’s sort of a balancing act, trying to find the most accurate placement that makes sense alongside other stories and also allows the timeline itself to flow nicely with the subheadings. | |||
: These timelines have been worked on for years and although they’re not perfect, they’re constantly being adjusted and the placements we currently have aren’t random, we’re always scrutinising and re-evaluating things in order to improve it, even if it may not seem that way to the immediate observer. [[User:SarahJaneFan|SarahJaneFan]] [[User talk:SarahJaneFan|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 23:36, 14 November 2022 (UTC) | |||
== Titan Comics Year 1 == | |||
I’ve been wondering if this run might fit better before ''[[Resolution (TV story)|Resolution]]''. Currently the only evidence to suggest a placement afterwards is a brief visit to 2019 in ''[[Hidden Human History (comic story)|Hidden Human History]]'' but it’s not stated that this is a visit to the precise present day for the Fam. The first two stories are certainly supposed to be roughly Series 11 adjacent. The latter two are a bit more ambiguous but it doesn’t really feel like they take place nearly a full year after the first two. I think placing the full run of stories between ''[[The Battle of Ranskoor Av Kolos (TV story)|The Battle of Ranskoor Av Kolos]]'' and ''[[Resolution (TV story)|Resolution]]'' could work quite well, it’s just a case of whether the visit to 2019 is seen as an intentional indication of placement or if it’s a case of the present day for the comic just being the same for the reader if not necessarily for the characters like ''[[The Clockwise War (comic story)|The Clockwise War]]'' taking place in 2018 instead of 2017 for example. [[User:SarahJaneFan|SarahJaneFan]] [[User talk:SarahJaneFan|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 02:49, 19 November 2022 (UTC) | |||
: That was the case until ''Time Lapse'' had Team TARDIS first hear of the Time Agency in [[2019]].[[User:BananaClownMan|BananaClownMan]] [[User talk:BananaClownMan|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 02:15, 20 November 2022 (UTC) | |||
