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Oh, and hasn't the Doctor been stuck on one timestream since the end of the Time War, unable to pop over to any others? [[Special:Contributions/82.2.136.93|82.2.136.93]] 22:03, December 15, 2011 (UTC) | Oh, and hasn't the Doctor been stuck on one timestream since the end of the Time War, unable to pop over to any others? [[Special:Contributions/82.2.136.93|82.2.136.93]] 22:03, December 15, 2011 (UTC) | ||
the doctor must continually make new timestreams depending on what he does otherwise dalek and the stolen earth/journey's end couldn't happen in the same timeline. | the doctor must continually make new timestreams depending on what he does otherwise dalek and the stolen earth/journey's end couldn't happen in the same timeline. and with the cracks, the events still happened before they were errased, meaning the errased events hapenned on a timestream that is different to the one where they weren't errased. oh, and @boblipton, i've seen the night and the doctor things as well. [[User:Imamadmad|Imamadmad]] <sup>[[User talk:Imamadmad|talk to me]]</sup> 03:48, December 16, 2011 (UTC) | ||
Regarding the Doctor existing in different timelines-you may have missed the occasional reference to this, but time can be rewritten. This is a long-established fact in the Doctor Who universe. The earliest episode that I can think of where this occured was ''The Space Museum'', but there were probably references to that earlier as well. This is also relevant in ''A Christmas Carol'', whose relevance to this conversation I still don't see. It might be worth starting a seperate conversation about that. Anyway, there are two relatively simple theories that I can think of that make ''A Christmas Carol'' make sense. One is that, as soon as Kazran said "but I do remember" or "I did happen," or whatever the line was, the changes had caught up to him, and all the events with Abigail and the sharks and the fish were in his memory. At that point, it was basically the same story as Dickens' version ''A Christmas Carol'', except the Doctor was reminding Kazran of his past by showing him videos and photos instead of by taking him back in time. The second theory, goes with how the Doctor explained time being rewritten to Martha in ''The Shakespeare Code''. He basically said that it works the same as in ''Back to the Future.'' In ''Back to the Future'' the changes often weren't instantaneous. Marty's family didn't change as soon as Marty travelled back in the De'lorean. He travelled back to the 50s, and after he prevented his parents from meeting, the photograph he had of his family began to change. Oddly, there seems to have been a timeline where his brother didn't have a head, but the future changed as he was changing events in the past. Then, after he got his parents to kiss, the photograph changed back. The same thing was basically happenning in ''A Christmas Carol'', except that we saw it from the other end. Kazran's past was changing as the Doctor made the changes, even though they weren't actually happenning simultaneously but were happenning several decades apart. Kazran, like many characters in Doctor Who, was just able to remember both timelines, probably because the Doctor had actually told him he was changing the past. The machine at the end not working for him is simple enough no matter how you look at it anyway. In that timeline, the machine had never worked for him. His father wasn't going to let a nice person use his machine, so he never programmed the isomorphic controls to work for him. The machine was still sitting there though, even though nobody was capable of using it. Since Kazran was still recovering from his entire life being changed, he didn't remember that the machine didn't work for him in that timeline. As for the changes from the cracks-first of all, if Donna was never half Time Lord, she would have turned into the Master anyway, and the rest of the story would be exactly the same. She didn't exactly do anything important. Second of all, as has been proven, and stated in this forum countless times, the cracks remove things from history, but they don't change the effect that they had on the world. Amy is able to live without having had parents, and Harriet Jones is able to be dead without the Daleks, because that's how the cracks work. It's as simple as that. You might as well ask why people don't ever remember the Silence, or why (most) people suddenly become evil as soon as they are turned into a Cybermen.[[User:Icecreamdif|Icecreamdif]] <sup>[[User talk:Icecreamdif|talk to me]]</sup> 05:39, December 16, 2011 (UTC) | Regarding the Doctor existing in different timelines-you may have missed the occasional reference to this, but time can be rewritten. This is a long-established fact in the Doctor Who universe. The earliest episode that I can think of where this occured was ''The Space Museum'', but there were probably references to that earlier as well. This is also relevant in ''A Christmas Carol'', whose relevance to this conversation I still don't see. It might be worth starting a seperate conversation about that. Anyway, there are two relatively simple theories that I can think of that make ''A Christmas Carol'' make sense. One is that, as soon as Kazran said "but I do remember" or "I did happen," or whatever the line was, the changes had caught up to him, and all the events with Abigail and the sharks and the fish were in his memory. At that point, it was basically the same story as Dickens' version ''A Christmas Carol'', except the Doctor was reminding Kazran of his past by showing him videos and photos instead of by taking him back in time. The second theory, goes with how the Doctor explained time being rewritten to Martha in ''The Shakespeare Code''. He basically said that it works the same as in ''Back to the Future.'' In ''Back to the Future'' the changes often weren't instantaneous. Marty's family didn't change as soon as Marty travelled back in the De'lorean. He travelled back to the 50s, and after he prevented his parents from meeting, the photograph he had of his family began to change. Oddly, there seems to have been a timeline where his brother didn't have a head, but the future changed as he was changing events in the past. Then, after he got his parents to kiss, the photograph changed back. The same thing was basically happenning in ''A Christmas Carol'', except that we saw it from the other end. Kazran's past was changing as the Doctor made the changes, even though they weren't actually happenning simultaneously but were happenning several decades apart. Kazran, like many characters in Doctor Who, was just able to remember both timelines, probably because the Doctor had actually told him he was changing the past. The machine at the end not working for him is simple enough no matter how you look at it anyway. In that timeline, the machine had never worked for him. His father wasn't going to let a nice person use his machine, so he never programmed the isomorphic controls to work for him. The machine was still sitting there though, even though nobody was capable of using it. Since Kazran was still recovering from his entire life being changed, he didn't remember that the machine didn't work for him in that timeline. As for the changes from the cracks-first of all, if Donna was never half Time Lord, she would have turned into the Master anyway, and the rest of the story would be exactly the same. She didn't exactly do anything important. Second of all, as has been proven, and stated in this forum countless times, the cracks remove things from history, but they don't change the effect that they had on the world. Amy is able to live without having had parents, and Harriet Jones is able to be dead without the Daleks, because that's how the cracks work. It's as simple as that. You might as well ask why people don't ever remember the Silence, or why (most) people suddenly become evil as soon as they are turned into a Cybermen.[[User:Icecreamdif|Icecreamdif]] <sup>[[User talk:Icecreamdif|talk to me]]</sup> 05:39, December 16, 2011 (UTC) | ||
well, first things first, i would like to point out to you that the cybermen are not evil. they are humans who have had their bodies replaced with what is basically a robotic body, had their emotions and therefore morals restricted, and generally feel that being a cyberman is better than being a human with pain, discrimination, and so many other negatives that come with being human that don't happen to cybermen and forget the positives and are genuinley surprised when people don't want to be converted, however, the cubermen think they are doing the humans a favour so they keep going. this does not make them evil, they merely do not understand. so there, i just explained why people suddenly become "evil" as soon as they are turned into cybermen. now back to the main point. obviously time can be rewritten, but it is how you view time that determines how. for example, in the multiple time dimentions theory that was discussed previously, it is changed simply by having moved further to the right in time which means that it is harder to destroy events that have already happened to a timetraveler. for example, what happened to the events in dalek after journeys end? in this theory, they still happened, but further to the left of the current timestream, avoiding paradoxes. however, if you believe that time simply changes, then dalek couldn't have happened, meaning the doctor wouldn't have picked up adam which means that it would be less likely that the doctor would have gone to satelite 5 meaning the doctor wouldn't have recognised it in bad wolf/parting of ways as well as he wouldn't have changed it to be that way which would have affected the outcome of the story meaning there is a smaller chance that he regenerated there meaning... basically by errasing an event (not in a cracky way with the consequences still leftover) one can change the characters whole history. now, in my example, the doctor might still have gone to satelite 5, but it would be less likely as the doctor took rose and adam there basically as a date. also, it was in dalek that the doctor realised just how bad guns were, when he realised that by using one, he was no better than a dalek. so, you see, by errasing an event from someones life, you can fundamentally change who they are (even if not immediately) which could cause the event they caused that meant the previous event was errased to not have happened. yet again in this example, if dalek hadn't made the doctor realise how having a gun made him like a dalek, he might of just shot dalek caan preventing TSE/JE to not happen. in a 5(or more)d universe, that event which changed the doctor's character still happened to the left of the current timestream but still in the doctor's timeline which means no paradoxes. so really, although time can be rewritten by sliding to a new timestream to the right of the current one which contains the changes and appears to non 5+d universe thinkers that the timestream they are on has changed or been rewritten, as the "the current timestream has just been changed" theory would lead to some messy consequences which we do not see in the show. [[User:Imamadmad|Imamadmad]] <sup>[[User talk:Imamadmad|talk to me]]</sup> 06:15, December 16, 2011 (UTC) | |||
