Talk:Black Guardian

Being: misunderstanding?

The current Being section says:

On one occasion, the Doctor referred to beings sometimes known as "a" Black Guardian, implying that there could be more than one. (TV: The Stones of Blood)

But from what I can tell this seems to be a misunderstanding of the script. There are two references to the Black Guardian(s) in The Stones of Blood:

1. At the start of the first episode, the voice of the White Guardian saying just: "Beware the Black Guardian", twice.
2. In the next scene, the Doctor explains to Romana, saying: "The voice you just heard and the being you saw in the shape of the President was the White Guardian, or to be more accurate, the Guardian of Light in Time as opposed to the Guardian of Darkness, sometimes called the Black Guardian. They can assume any shape or form they wish."

The use of the word "being" in the second quote, and "They" in the last sentence doesn't rule out other Black and White Guardians, but to go from this to multiple Black Guardians is speculation, especially when the quote is taken in the context of the rest of the series. --xensyria^T 14:03, December 8, 2013 (UTC)

• Removed on the basis the episode doesn't support this speculation. Burden of proof should be on anyone who wants to restore it. --xensyria^T 14:07, January 10, 2016 (UTC)

Infobox image

Just a suggestion - would it be worth updating the image in the infobox, maybe to a clearer and more defined shot of the character (possibly taken from Mawdryn Undead or Enlightenment)? — Fractal Doctor @ 22:29, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Rename - The

There's been renames added to

• Azure Guardian
• Beige Guardian
• Black Guardian
• Gold Guardian
• Green Guardian
• Red Guardian
• White Guardian
• Silver Guardian

With the statement that the definitive The should be added to the titles.

Going by Tardis:Character names it should be the most commonly name they are referred to as, not to "fit in" with other names that we have for other beings. --Tangerineduel / talk 00:56, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

Well, yes, but no one's saying that he's ever called "Black Guardian" without the "the" (or at least no more than the Doctor is called just "Doctor" — i.e. just when someone's addressing either of them: "hello there, Doctor", "hello there, Black Guardian"). This isn't a dispute about what the name is, but about how to render a name that's a "the" title. I think it's reasonable to propose that we should be consistent on this. Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 01:03, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

This I think is something that shouldn't move ahead, the Time Lords who've chosen their names (Doctor, Master, etc) are almost the exception to the rule.

If these were to be moved to "The Black Guardian", then every page that could be rendered with a "The" at the start would be argued to have a definitive at the start, which would be a nightmare for searchability, SEO and general ease of use. --Tangerineduel / talk 06:38, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

Agreed, Tangerine. We shouldn't make this move for the same reason we wouldn't move First Doctor to The First Doctor. Stylistically, it's ugly, and the adjectival "First" is sufficient to differentiate the character from other Doctors. Whereas if we didn't use the definite article for The Doctor, we'd be left with Doctor. Danochy ☎ 07:24, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

I don't see why this page should be any different to The Cheshire Cat or The Ancient One (The Curse of Fenric). Jack "BtR" Saxon ☎ 07:43, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

It is more so an argument that those pages should have the "The" removed from their page names than the reverse. --Tangerineduel / talk 05:22, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

I strongly disagree — that would be extremely untidy. Makeshift as it is, it seems clear to me that the standard is that we use "The" when it is part of a character's overall name — hence The Doctor, The Toymaker, etc. — but not when we are dealing with an incarnation of a broader character. Hence, The War Chief but War Doctor. The way I see it, it's the difference between "(The War) Doctor" and "(The) War Chief": War Chief would imply that there's a guy called The Chief and this is his "War incarnation", and contrariwise The War Doctor would imply that there's a Time Lord whose overall chosen name is "War Doctor", rather than "War" being a qualifier to "Doctor". By this logic The Black Guardian is more accurate than Black Guardian, which suggests that there's an overall "The Guardian" who has a "black" incarnation.

Regardless, in the specific cases cited, The Cheshire Cat is certainly necessary to distinguish the Cheshire Cat from Cheshire cats plural, no different from "The Doctor" vs. "doctors". Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 11:43, 16 February 2024 (UTC)