Talk:Second Morbius

Rename discussion

In case anyone has missed this, I would like to point out that this incarnation has an official name, "the Morbius Monster", and has had that name for nearly two decades. That's how he is referred to in the Monsters and Villains reference book, published by the BBC. The name is used in both a section header and in running text, with proper-name capitalisation (so we know for a fact that it's not just a passing mention of "the Morbius monster"). It contains both his personal name "Morbius" and the objective description "Monster", the latter of which is also used (with proper-name capitalisation) throughout the novelisation, so I really cannot see any possible objection to this name. As far as I can tell, the sole reason it's being kept at "Second Morbius" is out of a neurotic desire to make it add up (?) to the completely unsupported fan-made name "Third Morbius" that someone has prematurely decided must be used for the Samuel West incarnation. I hope to see this resolved soon. PintlessMan ☎ 05:09, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

Edit: I'm only now finding out that the novelisation outright calls him "the Morbius Monster" too. This is even more ridiculous than I thought. PintlessMan ☎ 05:54, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

The undiscussed rename to "Morbius Monster" was undone on the basis of the fact that the proposed source, Monsters and Villains, means diddly-squat, as the name occurred in purely BTS-focused reference passages, not in in-universe fiction. (In some rare cases we might allow a reference source to guide speculative page-naming, but it is not clear that this would override normal naming policies for Time Lord incarnations, whatever those are. Very unclear jurisprudence, all this.)

If it occurs in Doctor Who and the Brain of Morbius, that's at the very least a much stronger argument than Monsters and Villains. That being said, I think T:BOUND might apply to all three Morbius pages until the discussion at Talk:First Morbius, which has bearing on all three incarnations, resolves? (Which it can't until User:NateBumber gets his OP in order — he specifically rejected my attempt to craft an OP myself, feeling that I was misrepresenting his points.) Not sure, but worth getting second opinions on. Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 10:20, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

I don't feel that is a fair evaluation of Monsters and Villains. Identifying it as "purely BTS-focused reference passages" is not quite accurate... as it is much messier than that. It has both in- and out-of-universe info.

Taking the Morbius Monster's page as an example, the first section of text on the page talks about the Monster about without saying "he was played by x y x" but it does say "In The Brain of Morbius..." at the beginning.

Then there is a diagram of the Morbius Monster that probably would be valid if it was in any way separated from the rest of the info, and then the final section of text is much like the first.

While some parts of the book really do blur the lines, with very OOU prose giving new in-universes facts, the Morbius Monster's page at least doesn't do that, although there is the whole "in x y z" story thing to contend with.

EPSILON^🔎 |📯|📂|📦|📝

10:52, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

I'm not necessarily fighting for validity, but I do want to clarify that is it absolutely not just pure OOU info.

EPSILON^🔎 |📯|📂|📦|📝

10:53, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

A non-transformative summary of what the Monster does in the TV story is OOU, in just the same way that plot summaries on this very Wiki are OOU. Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 11:22, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

I'd argue the page as a whole does add new info, on the basis of the diagram.

EPSILON^🔎 |📯|📂|📦|📝

12:37, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

If the diagram has a title and adopts a wholly in-universe perspective, it could conceivably be a valid GRAPHIC source. Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 16:00, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

Merger and Re-numbering

To put it plainly, I believe that this ought to be addressed before we make any decisions regarding the "Morbius I v. First Morbius" naming convention. The "Morbius Monster" should not be covered separately from First Morbius. The brain of this first incarnation is simply piloting the monster body. The story is clear that his brain has persisted since it's removal from his body, with no discussion of a regeneration. For example, The Brain of Morbius ^[+]Loading...["The Brain of Morbius (novelisation)"] states that his brain was removed "before they destroyed his body. [Solon] kept it alive!" The monster body is a support system no diferent from the non-portable brain tank that he was using beforehand. I direct you to this excerpt from the novelisation:

'The support system is scarcely portable—not for more than very short distances. And without it your brain will die, Morbius.’

‘The body you have already made must serve as my support system. You must transplant me into it, Solon, while there is still time.’

Note also that Morbius's voice both inside the brain tank and within the artificial monster body are the same. As described in the novel, Solon had estbalished "connections that linked the brain of Morbius to its artificial container, [which attached] to the Monster's body." The First Morbius did not die (yet), he doesn't die until he was pushed into the canyon, as directly addressed in the next chronological appearance of Morbius in The Vengeance of Morbius ^[+]Loading...["The Vengeance of Morbius (audio story)"], wherein he specifically states "I stand here and look down into this canyon, where I once fell to my death..."

So with that out of the way, I propose that we merge Morbius Monster into First Morbius and move Third Morbius to Second Morbius. I feel I don't have to explain why the Morbius that is explicitly stated to have come from the brainstem of the First Morbius, infused with living Time Lord DNA, to affect "a new regeneration" would constitute that linear progression. The brain is the First Morbius. The text is clear that the First Morbius's brain is piloting the monster body. The brain is what regenerates into the Samuel West body. Such a merger will not only be more accurate to the text, but more straight forward. I think that, particularly with Morbius ^[+]Loading...["Morbius (audio story)"] releasing right now, it's important that our coverage on the matter is straight forward and accurate. As others have noted in places like Tumblr and Twitter, it is evident that the Wiki's coverage of The Legacy of Gallifrey was heavily influential as to the writing of Dark Gallifrey. Let's be sure that we're covering it properly. Dewinter ☎ 01:08, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

You raise good points but "Although not the product of regeneration, the Monster was considered distinguishable enough from Morbius' original incarnation to appear separately from it as one of the faces in his mindbending duel with the Fourth Doctor."

To reflect this ambiguity I suggest that we still keep this as a separate page but call it "Morbius Monster" instead of making it look like a regeneration. However it is also worth noting that the Third Morbius also was not a product of regeneration. WarDocFan12 ☎ 13:36, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

I don't really think that his face appearing in the mindbending duel is particularly dispositive, and I certainly don't think it is such to create "ambiguity". We know for a fact that when the Decayed Master takes over the bodies of the various members of the Maestro family that his appearance is different, yet we don't have a series of pages for them. Where are you quoting that from, might I ask? But to address your second point, the creation of the Third Morbius is literally referred to in The Vengeance of Morbius ^[+]Loading...["The Vengeance of Morbius (audio story)"] as "a new regeneration." To be more precise, Zardonix states immediately beforehand:

"And now, with an infusion of living Time Lord DNA, there will be a new regeneration. Morbius will return."

If I understand it correctly, coverage follows the mind. Here is perhaps the most literal example of following the mind, his brain is literally in a jar puppeteering a monster body. Every subsequent story picks up not from the monster but from the leftover pieces of Morbius's brain. Dewinter ☎ 17:13, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

As an additional piece of context from the Part 3 of AUDIO: Morbius, Morbius is said to have left several part of himself around the place before his execution to facilitate his resurrection. Those mentioned include his brain (this page) and his mind, the latter being placed inside Veritas in the aforementioned audio. The Doctor also summons a projection of the Morbius Monster to fight the mind of Morbius. Danochy ☎ 14:48, 23 June 2024 (UTC)