Talk:The Woman Who Lived (in-universe)

Dab term?

Received some feedback from a not we who was extremely confused to accidentally wind up on this page while looking for The Woman Who Lived (TV story). Analogously to how it's Paul Magrs (Bafflement and Devotion) that receives the dab term, not Paul Magrs... could we invent a dab term for in-universe Doctor Who episodes so that [[The Woman Who Lived]] can remain a redirect to the more relevant page? – N8 (☎/👁️) 18:56, November 16, 2020 (UTC)

Surely they noticed the {{you may}}?

According to T:DAB, technically in-universe pages should remain undabbed. With Paul Magrs (Bafflement and Devotion), the only reason he got a dab is because it would've been extremely difficult to give the real world page a dab, considering how many pages link to the page.

Epsilon 📯 📂

19:06, November 16, 2020 (UTC)

With that said, it's not a primary topic, so arguably we could go with the precedent of Doctor Who (N-Space) and dab it with (N-Space), but perhaps this is better served by a forum thread, as that's likely a major policy change. Najawin ☎ 19:09, November 16, 2020 (UTC)

However, finding TV story pages has never been an issue before! That's why there's (TV story) at the end of the pagename. I'd be extremely opposed to any change brought on by one "not we".

Epsilon 📯 📂

19:12, November 16, 2020 (UTC)

To be fair to that user, I've been feeling this way for a while myself ever since we started adding the S9 N-space episodes. It kinda got confusing, since when I saw "Heaven Sent" being edited I instantly thought it meant the actual TV episode was being edited. Yes, there are dab terms for the real things, but that doesn't make it less counter-intuitive, even if rationally I get it. "What's an anagram of Banach Tarski? Banach Tarski Banach Tarski". That sort of thing. I get it, doesn't mean that intuitively in the moment it makes me comfortable, and for the average wiki reader I understand the confusion. Najawin ☎ 19:16, November 16, 2020 (UTC)

If a dab term were to be utilised, I'd prefer something like [[The Woman Who Lived (episode)]].

Epsilon 📯 📂

19:19, November 16, 2020 (UTC)

I feel like that would also be confusing. Najawin ☎ 19:22, November 16, 2020 (UTC)

I think anything more specific might infringe a bit on T:NPOV. We can't just start favouring the TV stories when there are clear links to the real world page.

Epsilon 📯 📂

19:28, November 16, 2020 (UTC)

Hmm? Who said anything about favoring the TV stories? I never said we should undab the original story, I just said we should maybe add something more specific than (episode) to this page, because (episode) doesn't distinguish between in universe and out of universe to someone who isn't familiar with this wiki's conventions, whereas "(N-space)" instantly looks weird and tells them something a bit nuanced is going on. Regardless, probably best served by a forum discussion, adding it to the list. Najawin ☎ 19:32, November 16, 2020 (UTC)

I would certainly bsupport adding "(N-Space)". -- Saxon (✉️) 19:34, November 16, 2020 (UTC)

The thing is, I really don't like that dab term. It's ugly, and is rather irrelevant. It denotes the name of the universe, and is no more specific than that. The thing is, when you go on Wikipedia, or pick up a book, quite often they have jargon and lingon that is necessary to be known. The Tardis Data Core shouldn't be any different. And for Pete's sake, there is a {{you may}} tag leading the real world page! You'd have to be blind to miss it.

Epsilon 📯 📂

19:39, November 16, 2020 (UTC)

I have to agree "(episode)" would be much too confusing; might as well not dab at all if that's the best we can muster. I'm rather partial to "(N-Space)" myself. "(in-universe)" would be the most clearly explicit to the not-we but doesn't even have the "creative application of T:DAB OTHER" justification in current policy that "(N-Space)" has. --Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 20:01, November 16, 2020 (UTC)

I'll third "(N-Space)". I don't think it's very ugly, and it conforms with precedent. – N8 (☎/👁️) 20:08, November 16, 2020 (UTC)

I agree with (N-Space). The {{you may}} tag on The Woman Who Lived (TV story) already virtually says this. NightmareofEden ☎ 20:11, November 16, 2020 (UTC)

And yet issue was brought up with Give-a-Show Projector (N-Space) when I gave that page that dab.

Epsilon 📯 📂

20:15, November 16, 2020 (UTC)

I'm not sure how much of precedent it actually is, given the special circumstances surrounding that issue, as Epsilon brought up. Regardless, I think in general (N-space) would serve as a decent first order dab term for "in universe" whenever one is needed. But that's a larger discussion we need to have. Najawin ☎ 20:15, November 16, 2020 (UTC)

Good point. Outside the context of that larger discussion, maybe The Woman Who Lived (The Zygon Isolation) is the solution. – N8 (☎/👁️) 21:17, November 16, 2020 (UTC)

I'd rather not have episode-specific dabs. Radio Times (magazine) is a good example, and Doctor Who Magazine (periodical) is another. The dabs would make everything look confusing and over-complicated. What I'd like is consistency throughout pages - have a look at Category:Doctor Who (N-Space) stories - simplistic, orderly, and easy on the eyes.

Epsilon 📯 📂

21:26, November 16, 2020 (UTC)

Hence why a dab like (epsiode) might at least preserve some of the qualities I think work.

Epsilon 📯 📂

21:31, November 16, 2020 (UTC)

To be fair, Doctor Who Magazine (periodical) is from the exact same thing, and arguably violates T:NO RW as it is wrt the dab term (even if it doesn't, it's certainly conjecture). I've listed the thread at User:Najawin/Sandbox 5, so whenever the forums are back up we'll have a lot to discuss then. Najawin ☎ 22:37, November 16, 2020 (UTC)

A bit late, but I'm gonna throw my support behind dabbing all in-universe versions of real world production pages with either (N-Space) or ([story title]), provided the real world version is more notable to a Doctor Who audience than the in-universe version. I'd prefer the former, personally, but as discussed already that would require a forum decision and so will have to wait. In fact, they'd probably both require a forum decision to override the fact that the in-universe term should be the undabbed title.

My problem with the dab term (episode) is that it is already used to dab real world episode titles, such as The Roof of the World (episode). Danochy ☎ 00:00, November 21, 2020 (UTC)

As much as I am opposed to the pages being renamed (although I do understand the rationale), dabbing the pages with (N-Space) would be the best option, at least until something more appropriate is divised.

Epsilon 📯 📂

00:29, November 21, 2020 (UTC)

Also worth pointing out, how do we dab Planet of the Spiders, The Seeds of Doom, and State of Decay? They're in-universe serials from Fanboys, which is currently {{invalid}} due to the fact that the story has been invalid for nearly a decade (yes, this is absurd). After all, invalid stories aren't set in N-Space...

Epsilon 📯 📂

02:20, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

Obviously the correct solution is just to wait for an admin to fix the utter absurdity that is the Fanboys situation. Najawin ☎ 02:24, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

This would be a good item for the temporary forums, like User:Scrooge MacDuck has pointed out. (N-Space) seems perfectly sensible. My position has always been that if it's an in-universe counterpart of something we cover as a real world topic, directly referencing its importance to the DWU, the in-universe counterpart should get the dab term. (The same logically applies to John Hurt (Greeks Bearing Gifts), since the actor John Hurt is the primary topic. Direct counterpart. Not simply the same name by happenstance.)

So The Five Doctors (the in-universe video game) remains un-dabbed, Castrovalva remains un-dabbed, but [[The Woman Who Lived]] should instead follow Tom Baker (TV Action!).
× SOTO (☎/✍/↯) 12:34, 1 January 2022 (UTC)

For this specific page, I would agree with User:NateBumber: The Woman Who Lived (The Zygon Isolation) is the way to go. It actually appears within the story, so there's no need to dab by universe. (As others have pointed out, (episode) is also not an option, since we already use this for real world stories.)
× SOTO (☎/✍/↯) 12:38, 1 January 2022 (UTC)