Theory talk:Timeline - Fifth Doctor

Ophiuchus Placement

I thought it was worth having a discussion about the placement of COMIC: Ophiuchus, To determine whether it’s best placed between Mawdryn Undead and Terminus, or at some point during the run of older Nyssa audio stories.

A few points about the story in question to begin with:

• Tegan is wearing her air hostess costume and has longer hair than she did in Season 20.

• It’s not specified how long Turlough has been around but he’s reluctant to get involved in Gallifrey’s affairs.

• Nyssa seems younger, but I’ve not heard any of the older Nyssa stories so I can’t verify how different she might be. She’s also wearing her Trakenite fairy skirt.

• The only continuity reference is Nyssa mentioning that she would bring her father back if she had the opportunity, and the Doctor replied with a comment about the Master killing Tremas.

It’s a fairly brief adventure, so it wouldn’t have all that much impact on continuity if placed before Terminus, and obviously Gardens of the Dead, has already opened that gap up slightly.

But then again, it could potentially fit just as well towards the end of the Older Nyssa Arc, after her rejuvenation. My gut is probably telling me to play it safe and leave it before Terminus, but the significant other Big Finish references in that comic are making me wonder if this story was intended for the later gap.

SarahJaneFan ☎ 15:06, October 2, 2018 (UTC)

Well, in these cases, Turlough is the breaking point. We just need to evaluate his demeanor, position and trust to determine is this occurs before or after he sided with the Doctor against the Black Guardian.BananaClownMan ☎ 02:42, October 4, 2018 (UTC)

That’s a bit of an issue because his part is very brief, in fact so brief that I can actually be bothered to transcribe it.

Turlough: “Dark down here, isn’t it? Why did he make us come?”

Nyssa: “The Doctor believes there’s more going on here than meets the eye.”

Turlough: “They said this man had committed terrible crimes - vivisection - to extend the life of some Time Lord criminals. Is it really our job to bring him to justice?”

Nyssa: “You could have stayed in the capitol.”

Turlough: “I wish I had.”

Turlough then just stands around in the background for the rest of the story. SarahJaneFan ☎ 10:04, October 4, 2018 (UTC)

So, he's still a bit of a "cowardly lion" at this point. Could be evidence enough for a pre-Enlightenment setting, where he spent a lot of his time afraid of both the Black Guardian and being discovered as a double agent.BananaClownMan ☎ 11:21, October 4, 2018 (UTC)

Yeah, I mean if I was forced to choose a placement, I’d probably go with the pre-Terminus setting. SarahJaneFan ☎ 11:55, October 4, 2018 (UTC)

Nyssa's Absnce; Renaissance of the Daleks Debate

Recently a user made an edit that more or less removed the implication that the Doctor's early solo adventures took place after she was dropped off in Rhodes leaving no explanation for her absence in its place. This user also inexplicably shuffled around a bunch of stories that take place around this period of time for reasons that I cannot quite comprehend. I replaced this stretch of stories that went from Time-Flight to sometime after Arc of Infinity with an older edit that reflects this long-held view on this particular theory page. I don't believe any stories were omitted in the process but feel free to take a closer look at the edits if you think one might have. If the user in question believes that they have a good case to make for why Nyssa being dropped off in Rhodes during Renaissance of the Daleks is not a suitable explanation for her absence during the Fifth Doctor's early solo adventures, then please make your case for it down below. This is an explanation that has long been accepted to explain her absence during these stories, it should not be discarded on the whim of a single user's interpretation of the story. –Nahald ☎ 04:44, August 16, 2020 (UTC)

The Doctor went straight from Rhodes to the 22nd century, as seen below:

Tillington: Events across Space and Time interpreted here in our shaping chamber, and then formed into 3D images. That’s how we picked up on you, Doctor. These images of a Dalek invasion and occupation of Earth, well, we saw your craft in them. Your TARDIS.

DOCTOR: I see.

TILLINGTON: Those TLTs latched onto that image. Next thing we knew, there you were, dropping off your friend Nyssa and heading here.

So Tillington says he saw the Doctor leave Rhodes and head straight for the 22nd cetury. Pretty conclusive, I should think. Danochy ☎ 09:28, August 16, 2020 (UTC)

So we just have Tillington's word on it? The Doctor doesn't confirm or deny it? It sounds more like Tillington just made an assumption that he followed the Doctor directly. A gap could be placed here, on the unofficial rule of "if not shown the connection, it can fit", the same rule that applies to the Ninth Doctor in the Rose gaps.BananaClownMan ☎ 09:38, August 16, 2020 (UTC)

Because of the interocitor, the same amount of time has to pass for the Doctor as has passed anyway. Nyssa is only on day two of her expedition at the start of the story, but he hasn’t responded on the interocitor. That’s because he’s been kidnapped by Tillington. He then finally gets Nyssa’s messages when he escapes back to the TARDIS and is able to rescue her. If he’d gone on side trips, he’d either have gotten Nyssa messages and have gone to rescue her already or she’d be dead because he’s disappeared off to Stockbridge for an extended period while she gets blown up because he’s not answering the phone. SarahJaneFan ☎ 10:06, August 16, 2020 (UTC)

Could he not equally have gone on a day's worth of side trips, then got kidnapped, Nyssa sends the message and he dosn't get it until he escapes?BananaClownMan ☎ 10:09, August 16, 2020 (UTC)

Obviously he could’ve, but that’s not even worth including seeing as the only stories that need to come this early are the DWM comics and they can’t fit in the gap. SarahJaneFan ☎ 10:13, August 16, 2020 (UTC)

Then I propose that only the DWM comics can take place in this gap. They're the only stories that are specifically referenced in the audio adventures with Nyssa in the past tense, and there's just about as few as them that could theoretically take place in the span of a 24-hour day for the Doctor, or as long as a day is consdered for the Doctor and the TARDIS. BananaClownMan ☎ 10:31, August 16, 2020 (UTC)

They actually take place over at least a few days and potentially a few weeks. I’m happy enough to leave them there for now until there’s a better place for them, because regardless they need to come before Autumn and Castle of Fear, and likely after Time-Flight so they happen somewhere in that gap anyway. But yeah, the Doctor visits Stockbridge in the comics to play the cricket season, so he would’ve been there a lot longer than a day and we see him staying at the local B&B. He’s away from the TARDIS for so long at one stage that moss and vines grow over it. SarahJaneFan ☎ 10:43, August 16, 2020 (UTC)

If he's away from the TARDIS long enough for that to happen, maybe that's why her didn't get Nyssa's message. Assuming she had sent it by then, of course. BananaClownMan ☎ 11:03, August 16, 2020 (UTC)