Talk:Eighth Doctor: Difference between revisions

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== Infobox pic ==
[[file:Eight.jpg|thumb|left|Is this still the best we can do?]]
It was decided by discussion some time ago that the infobox pic was the best possible pic we could have of McGann, given his singular performance.  Now that he's had ''two'' performances, though, the question can be opened up again.  Anyone have strong feelings as to whether the image should be from the TVM or ''Night of the Doctor''? {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}} 01:02: Thu 28 Nov 2013</span>
:Even if Eight's appearance towards the end of his life is more representative, ''Night of the Doctor'' simply does not have the best lighting. If a well-light left-looking image of Eight from ''NOTD'' can be found, though, I'm all game.<br>--[[user:SmallerOnTheOutside|SOTO]] [[User talk:SmallerOnTheOutside|☎]] 01:10, November 28, 2013 (UTC)
: I suppose one question I'd have to ask, seeing as how I'm only somewhat familiar with the Lucie audios and none of the books or comics: is it the TVM or ''Night'' appearance which is more representative of everything else in those 17 years in between (prose and comic depictions, and any narration describing how Eight looks in audio), particularly short hair versus wig? -- [[User:Tybort|Tybort]] ([[User talk:Tybort|talk page]]) 01:41, November 28, 2013 (UTC)
::In the [[Short Trips (series)|Short Trips]] stories, he is described as having shoulder length curly brown hair. [[User:Shambala108|Shambala108]] [[User talk:Shambala108|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 02:06, November 28, 2013 (UTC)


If you want a pic from NOTD would this do?
== Doctor Who and the Time War and its relation to canon ==
''Doctor Who and the Time War'' definitely belongs on here, but shouldn't it be placed in the alternate timelines section? It's stated as events from a parallel universe by Davies and in the introduction. [[User:Never Forget The Day The 456 Arrived|Never Forget The Day The 456 Arrived]] [[User talk:Never Forget The Day The 456 Arrived|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 20:48, March 27, 2020 (UTC)
: A problem with classing it as an alternate timeline is the fact that the story is later alluded to in ''[[Revenge of the Nestene (short story)|Revenge of the Nestene]]''. [[User:WaltK|WaltK]] [[User talk:WaltK|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 20:56, March 27, 2020 (UTC)
:: For one thing, an [[alternate timeline]] and a [[parallel universe]] are two different concepts in the ''Doctor Who'' universe. Something stated to be a parallel universe would necessitate the creation of [[Eighth Doctor (Time War World)]] or whatever, like e.g. [[Peter Tyler (Pete's World)]].


[[File:Eighth-Doctor-NOTD.jpg|thumb|left|Will this do?]]
::Furthermore, Davies doesn't say it's a parallel universe, he says the story constitutes a glimpse of "parallel events". This could mean many things, and must be confronted with Davies also saying in the same breath that "all stories are true", and, as [[User:WaltK]] said, with the fact that in a new story, written this year in full knowledge of ''Night of the Doctor'', he still chooses to reference facts from ''Doctor Who and the Time War''


- [[User:MrSiriusBlack|MrSiriusBlack]] [[User talk:MrSiriusBlack|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 14:43, December 18, 2013 (UTC)
::It seems far more likely to me, in light of the latter comment, that he means it in the sense that we're seeing a glimpse into a parallel history ''of the show'' where [[Steven Moffat]] did not write ''[[The Day of the Doctor (TV story)|The Day of the Doctor]]'' and thus Davies was able to release ''Doctor Who and the Time War'' in DWM for the 50th anniversary. Which is distinct from the story, ''in universe'', being a parallel universe or alternate timeline.


If not, what about this --> [[http://i1232.photobucket.com/albums/ff372/ACrissTing/odd/Eighth_Doctor.jpg]] from the TVM? [[User:MrSiriusBlack|MrSiriusBlack]] [[User talk:MrSiriusBlack|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 14:47, December 18, 2013 (UTC)
::Heck, "parallel events" can mean anything. It could just be a case of events happening "in parallel", that is to say at the same time as one another. Considering what a brain-bendingly timey-wimey Time War is depicted by Davies in this story and ''[[Revenge of the Nestene (short story)|Revenge of the Nestene]]'', what's to say that somehow, the Eighth Doctor and the War Doctor don't simultaneously regenerate into the same incarnation as timelines collapse around them? Weirder things have happened in the DWU. --[[User:Scrooge MacDuck|Scrooge MacDuck]] [[User talk:Scrooge MacDuck|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 22:04, March 27, 2020 (UTC)


:Here are some guidelines to what we look for in infobox pictures: [[Tardis:Guide to images]]. Unfortunately, the image you've suggested here doesn't quite meet the guidelines. It's not close-up enough, and it's a bit dark. [[User:Shambala108|Shambala108]] [[User talk:Shambala108|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 15:21, December 18, 2013 (UTC)
::: Quick admin note (more related to the title than the discussion itself). This story's relation to canon, as far as the wiki is concerned, is the same as any other's: [[Tardis:Canon policy|"we don't believe there is such a thing as a "canon" for ''Doctor Who''"]]. [[User:OncomingStorm12th|OncomingStorm12th]] ([[User talk:OncomingStorm12th|talk]]) 23:12, March 27, 2020 (UTC)


::Probably a bit premature to actually be suggesting pics. The question before to start with is just whether we should stick with TVM or choose something from TNOTD. Let's settle that first ''before'' we go putting up a lot of alternative images. {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}} 23:05: Wed 18 Dec 2013</span>
::: The stuff in "alternate timelines" mostly refers to versions of this Doctor whose existence is presented in their respective stories as an alternative in relation to a ''primary'' version of the Doctor who is ''in the same stories'' (i.e. the "[[Johann Schmidt]]" Eighth Doctor who is an alternate future for the [[Seventh Doctor]] around whom the Klein arc revolves). ''[[Doctor Who and the Time War (short story)|Doctor Who and the Time War]]'' doesn't really fit that mould, so its current placement and framing is the right way to go. Instead of speculating the how and why of it all in the article itself, I think it's best just acknowledge that it differs from most accounts of the Eighth Doctor's final days and immediate future. People can decide for themselves how it happened and fits into their own personal "canon" (if indeed it fits for them at all :P) [[User:Toqgers|Toqgers]] [[User talk:Toqgers|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 00:09, March 28, 2020 (UTC)
:::: This is, I agree, the best approach (and the one, it seems, dictated by policy). We take things as they are, and offer alternate accounts when they're given. "Parallel events" can indeed mean so many things.{{User:SOTO/sig}} 04:08, March 28, 2020 (UTC)


I like the look of Eight from the Night of the Doctor, patly because the production values that time around were greatly superior to the movie where its always grainy and he looks a bit off--[[User:StormyNight01|<font color="black">Storm</font>]] <sup>[[User talk:StormyNight01|<font color="darkblue">Long nights</font>]] [[Special:Contributions/StormyNight01|<font color="blue">lay ahead.</font>]]</sup> 21:03, December 19, 2013 (UTC)
== Infobox image update? ==
: Well, I don't see much in the way of grain in the current pic. I'd assume that the [[Doctor Who Restoration Team]] would have sorted that out for one of the DVD releases, but the movie's not fresh in my mind. To me, unless there's really good evidence that, as SOTO says, the end-of-Eight's-life era is more representative of Eight in general, the one from the tele-movie we have (which itself has a lot of dim shots throughout as I recall) is just better lit than most NOTD images I've seen taken. Keep in mind that what's legible in a thumbnail is not the same as what's legible in the image's "original" size. -- [[User:Tybort|Tybort]] ([[User talk:Tybort|talk page]]) 21:58, December 19, 2013 (UTC)
<gallery>
Eight.jpg|Current
McGannLooksLeft.jpg|#1
Eight Dark Eyes Infobox Example.jpg|#2
</gallery>
I would like to propose a new infobox image (see right). — [[User:FractalDoctor|Fractal Doctor]] [[User talk:FractalDoctor|<span title="Talk">•</span>]] 13:27, 1 March 2024 (UTC)


== Continuity ==
: The gremlin in me wants to propose an EU image considering television isn't this Doctor's primary medium. However I expect nobody to agree with me here. Just my thoughts on the matter. [[User:Epsilon|&#123;&#123;SUBST:User:Epsilon/signature&#125;&#125;]] [[User talk:Epsilon|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 16:43, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
:: Ooh, this is actually really nice. --[[User:Scrooge MacDuck|Scrooge MacDuck]] [[User talk:Scrooge MacDuck|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 16:54, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
:::I'm against an EU image, but maybe it could be put to a vote? Might be worth getting a gallery going on here, of TV images as well as EU images, so people can then vote on preferences? — [[User:FractalDoctor|Fractal Doctor]] [[User talk:FractalDoctor|<span title="Talk">•</span>]] 16:56, 1 March 2024 (UTC)


''He goes through a list of his previous companions in chronological order, and places novel companions before audio ones.''  
:::: I feel unfortunately that the EU may not provide too many good images, as prose is usually unillustrated, comics can often vary in quality, and audio covers aren't the best source. Although, considering that Big Finish promo pictures can be used as valid illustrations now, we could look for an image of Eight in his ''Dark Eyes'' costume. [[User:Epsilon|&#123;&#123;SUBST:User:Epsilon/signature&#125;&#125;]] [[User talk:Epsilon|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 21:10, 1 March 2024 (UTC)


When does this happen? I have recently re-listened to the entirety of the Company of Friends(including Mary's Story), and while he mentions various companions, there's no "chronological list".
::::: Added an example. [[User:Epsilon|&#123;&#123;SUBST:User:Epsilon/signature&#125;&#125;]] [[User talk:Epsilon|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 21:18, 1 March 2024 (UTC)


== Console Room ==
::::::: I don't think that would be a good idea, in [[T:NPOV]] terms. The TVM look is one which all the various ranges agree upon as something the Eighth Doctor did look like at ''one'' point, while the ''Dark Eyes'' makeover is a quirk of one particular version. --[[User:Scrooge MacDuck|Scrooge MacDuck]] [[User talk:Scrooge MacDuck|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 21:37, 1 March 2024 (UTC)


"the first to radically and completely transform the console room"
:::::::: I agree with Scrooge tbh. Also, Epsilon, TV isn't the Decayed Master's primary medium either but we still use an image from his TV appearance. — [[User:FractalDoctor|Fractal Doctor]] [[User talk:FractalDoctor|<span title="Talk">•</span>]] 22:02, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
What happened to [http://incoherent.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/DWJa03.jpg the Fourth Doctor's cool wooden one]? Doesn't that count? -[[User:Aochider|Aochider]] [[User talk:Aochider|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 23:54, March 8, 2014 (UTC)
:Not really. That was the ''second'' console room — a physically distinct location.  The article is talking about ''the'' [[console room]].  The primary one.  See the beginning of ''[[The Masque of Mandragora (TV story)|The Masque of Mandragora]]'', episode one, for clarification.  {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}} 16:22: Sun 06 Apr 2014</span>


== There is no 'three year break" ==
:::::::: Same goes for the War Doctor too, I guess. — [[User:FractalDoctor|Fractal Doctor]] [[User talk:FractalDoctor|<span title="Talk">•</span>]] 22:11, 1 March 2024 (UTC)


I posted this on the ''Theory Timeline Eighth Doctor''. And here it is again.
::::::::: I didn't expect the ''Dark Eyes'' to be particularly the best idea. But when we've a characters with barely three onscreen appearances and hundreds in other mediums, it does strike me a little... unneutral to use a television image.
 
::::::::: Perhaps a tabbed gallery in thr infobox, so we can have images from Eight's different mediums? We don't ordinarily do this, especially given that Eight doesn't look that different between mediums, but considering Eight's era is 99% EU content, it may be a special case. [[User:Epsilon|&#123;&#123;SUBST:User:Epsilon/signature&#125;&#125;]] [[User talk:Epsilon|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 22:08, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
It is received wisdom that there is a "three year gap" between [[Bounty (audio story)]] and [[Vampire Science]]. This article states as much. However, that is nonsense. Examining what the [[Eighth Doctor Adventure]]s (and other material) in question '''actually'' say, we discover that there is no such thing.
 
Placing the [[Eighth Doctor comic stories]](DWM) after [[The Gallifrey Chronicles]] makes no sense.
 
1) DWM refererd to the "newly-regenerated" Eighth Doctor for Endgame.
And in The Glorious Dead Part 9, The Master says:
 
"In the past few months alone you have warped the Holloway woman's future([[The TV Movie]]), shattered Sato's honour([[The Road to Hell]]) and attempted to murder the benevolent Kroton([[The Company of Thieves]]). "
 
So, the Doctor Who Magazine comics come very soon after [[The TV Movie]], and everything from [[The TV Movie]] to the end of [[The Glorious Dead]] takes place over "a few months". To say nothing of the [[Threshold]] storyline. Would the Threshold wait for the Doctor to have centuries of other adventures before saying "Remember us?" Of course not.
 
2)And as stated, the [[Eighth Doctor Adventure]]s make it clear what '''really''' happened between [[Bounty (audio story)]] and [[Vampire Science]].
 
i)In [[Seeing I]], Chapter 12:
 
"She shook her head with a grin. 'Ahh, come off it. You were taking side trips even when we first got together. It was three months for me, three years for you..."
 
ii)In [[Placebo Effect]], Chapter 3:
 
"Sam laughed. 'Who's getting hitched?'
 
'Two dear friends of mine. I haven't seen them for a while.'
 
Sam raised an eyebrow. 'Anyone I know?'
 
'No. No. I don't think so. They...travelled with me for a few months'.
 
'How long ago?'
 
'Ah. Well. Promise you won't get upset?'
 
Sam's other eyebrow raised. 'Oh yes? This sounds good'.
 
'Remember not long after we first met, and I dropped you off at that Greenpeace rally in Canada?'
 
'Uh-huh'.
 
The Doctor smiled. Sheepishly. 'Well, you know that while only a few hours passed for you-'
 
'You'd been gone nearly a year of your time. Yes, I remember'.
 
'Well, I met them then.' The Doctor took the book back. After we parted, they stayed together. Very romantic, I suppose. "
 
iii)And [[Vampire Science]], Page 160 actually says:
 
"One day he dropped me off at a rally, and when I got back he told me he'd just popped off in the TARDIS for a while. A pretty long while, actually - like a year."
 
iv)While the "three years" is the Doctor's age since regenerating(in [[The TV Movie]]), from Page 206 of [[Vampire Science]]:
 
" 'Well, I don't know who he was I'm still not sure I know who you are.' He moved as if to get up, and she reached out to his shoulder to keep him there. 'There are all these basic little things you still haven't told me yet. I mean - how old are you?'
 
He thought for a moment, counting back through the months. 'Three.'
 
'What?' She sat up and stared at him. 'Three what? Centuries? Three oogleplexes? What?'
 
he shook his head. 'No, no, three years. I'm sure I heard Sam lecturing you about regeneration.'
 
'Well, yeah but-'
 
'It's all perfectly simple. That's how long it's been since my last fatal accident. That's when this body was born.'
 
'No, no, no. I mean how old are you really? All your lives together.' Good grief, she thought irritatedly, it sounds like you're interviewing Shirley MacLaine.
 
'Well, I'm not really sure. there's some question of whether I lost count.'
 
'Round it off, at least.'
 
He started frantically counting on his fingers. 'Um, about...'
 
'Come on, it can't take that long to-'
 
'...one thousand and twelve.'
 
Silence.
 
'Carolyn?'
 
This was sensible, it was logical, when someone's lived a bunch of lives in succession it's reasonable for them to go past a normal human lifespan. She really should have thought about this before - it was obvious really. There was absolutely no reason for suddenly to be feeling cold.
 
He moved over until he was sitting next to her. 'It's a big number, isn't it?' he said quietly.
 
She nodded without a word.
 
He smiled gently. and the corners of his eyes crinkled up. 'I know. That' why I prefer three'. "
 
So, there is no "three year gap". This is sort of equivalent to the [[Eleventh Doctor]] and [[Clara]]. They travel together for a while, he drops her off at home, travels alone(or with other companions), then returns and travels with Clara, then drops her off, and travels alone, then...
 
The Eighth Doctor aged three years from [[The TV Movie]] to [[Vampire Science]]. However, he travelled off and on with Sam during those three years. And his sheepish smile suggests that this "nearly a year" gap which included his travels with Stacy and Ssard, as well as (from Page 20) "Met up with some friends. Saved Earth from alien invaders. Hung around with an old archaeology chum of mine"([[The Dying Days]]) is the longest of these "side trips".
 
Or to put it another way, there is no chance of using one of these gaps for where he travelled with one companion for "three or four years", as well as the travels with Mary, Samson and Gemma.
 
It must go something like: [[The TV Movie]]-[[The Eight Doctors]]-[[The Dying Days]]-[[Eighth Doctor comic stories]](DWM)-Radio Times Comics-Doctor travels with Sam again-[[Totem]]-Doctor travels with Sam again-short stories where Doctor is travelling alone-Doctor travels with Sam again...[[User:Master of Spiders|Master of Spiders]] [[User talk:Master of Spiders|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 16:01, April 5, 2014 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 22:11, 1 March 2024

Archive.png
 Archives: #1, #2, #3, #4, #5

Doctor Who and the Time War and its relation to canon[[edit source]]

Doctor Who and the Time War definitely belongs on here, but shouldn't it be placed in the alternate timelines section? It's stated as events from a parallel universe by Davies and in the introduction. Never Forget The Day The 456 Arrived ☎ 20:48, March 27, 2020 (UTC)

A problem with classing it as an alternate timeline is the fact that the story is later alluded to in Revenge of the Nestene. WaltK ☎ 20:56, March 27, 2020 (UTC)
For one thing, an alternate timeline and a parallel universe are two different concepts in the Doctor Who universe. Something stated to be a parallel universe would necessitate the creation of Eighth Doctor (Time War World) or whatever, like e.g. Peter Tyler (Pete's World).
Furthermore, Davies doesn't say it's a parallel universe, he says the story constitutes a glimpse of "parallel events". This could mean many things, and must be confronted with Davies also saying in the same breath that "all stories are true", and, as User:WaltK said, with the fact that in a new story, written this year in full knowledge of Night of the Doctor, he still chooses to reference facts from Doctor Who and the Time War
It seems far more likely to me, in light of the latter comment, that he means it in the sense that we're seeing a glimpse into a parallel history of the show where Steven Moffat did not write The Day of the Doctor and thus Davies was able to release Doctor Who and the Time War in DWM for the 50th anniversary. Which is distinct from the story, in universe, being a parallel universe or alternate timeline.
Heck, "parallel events" can mean anything. It could just be a case of events happening "in parallel", that is to say at the same time as one another. Considering what a brain-bendingly timey-wimey Time War is depicted by Davies in this story and Revenge of the Nestene, what's to say that somehow, the Eighth Doctor and the War Doctor don't simultaneously regenerate into the same incarnation as timelines collapse around them? Weirder things have happened in the DWU. --Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 22:04, March 27, 2020 (UTC)
Quick admin note (more related to the title than the discussion itself). This story's relation to canon, as far as the wiki is concerned, is the same as any other's: "we don't believe there is such a thing as a "canon" for Doctor Who". OncomingStorm12th (talk) 23:12, March 27, 2020 (UTC)
The stuff in "alternate timelines" mostly refers to versions of this Doctor whose existence is presented in their respective stories as an alternative in relation to a primary version of the Doctor who is in the same stories (i.e. the "Johann Schmidt" Eighth Doctor who is an alternate future for the Seventh Doctor around whom the Klein arc revolves). Doctor Who and the Time War doesn't really fit that mould, so its current placement and framing is the right way to go. Instead of speculating the how and why of it all in the article itself, I think it's best just acknowledge that it differs from most accounts of the Eighth Doctor's final days and immediate future. People can decide for themselves how it happened and fits into their own personal "canon" (if indeed it fits for them at all :P) Toqgers ☎ 00:09, March 28, 2020 (UTC)
This is, I agree, the best approach (and the one, it seems, dictated by policy). We take things as they are, and offer alternate accounts when they're given. "Parallel events" can indeed mean so many things.
× SOTO (☎/✍/↯) 04:08, March 28, 2020 (UTC)

Infobox image update?[[edit source]]

  • Current

    Current

  • #1
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  • #2
    1. 2

I would like to propose a new infobox image (see right). — Fractal Doctor • 13:27, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

The gremlin in me wants to propose an EU image considering television isn't this Doctor's primary medium. However I expect nobody to agree with me here. Just my thoughts on the matter. {{SUBST:User:Epsilon/signature}} ☎ 16:43, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
Ooh, this is actually really nice. --Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 16:54, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
I'm against an EU image, but maybe it could be put to a vote? Might be worth getting a gallery going on here, of TV images as well as EU images, so people can then vote on preferences? — Fractal Doctor • 16:56, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
I feel unfortunately that the EU may not provide too many good images, as prose is usually unillustrated, comics can often vary in quality, and audio covers aren't the best source. Although, considering that Big Finish promo pictures can be used as valid illustrations now, we could look for an image of Eight in his Dark Eyes costume. {{SUBST:User:Epsilon/signature}} ☎ 21:10, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
Added an example. {{SUBST:User:Epsilon/signature}} ☎ 21:18, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
I don't think that would be a good idea, in T:NPOV terms. The TVM look is one which all the various ranges agree upon as something the Eighth Doctor did look like at one point, while the Dark Eyes makeover is a quirk of one particular version. --Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 21:37, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
I agree with Scrooge tbh. Also, Epsilon, TV isn't the Decayed Master's primary medium either but we still use an image from his TV appearance. — Fractal Doctor • 22:02, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
Same goes for the War Doctor too, I guess. — Fractal Doctor • 22:11, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
I didn't expect the Dark Eyes to be particularly the best idea. But when we've a characters with barely three onscreen appearances and hundreds in other mediums, it does strike me a little... unneutral to use a television image.
Perhaps a tabbed gallery in thr infobox, so we can have images from Eight's different mediums? We don't ordinarily do this, especially given that Eight doesn't look that different between mediums, but considering Eight's era is 99% EU content, it may be a special case. {{SUBST:User:Epsilon/signature}} ☎ 22:08, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
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